Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

[A New Dawn]

I am closing this thread for the night.

I have linked the thread for the advisors and administrators to read to see if there are any changes they wish to consider at this time.

 

[Chaplain David]

Good morning everyone,

Sorry I wasn't available yesterday evening. I had to get involved in a family crisis. Everything is better now.

Shalom

 

[Chaplain David]

One thing that would help greatly is for admin. to not tolerate phrases such as "those that don't hold to Scriptural instruction" or "those that promote divorce". These phrases suggest that there's only *one* interpretation of Scripture (and that is theirs interpretation). IMO.....those are subtle insults......goading. That, alone, doesn't present this forum well.

I don't believe anyone "promotes" divorce. Most people (including the people that are *in* these situations) don't *want* a divorce......I would be willing to go out on a limb and say *all* they want is for the abuse to stop and to be loved (and for their family to enjoy what comes with a healthy family for years to come).

I hear what you're saying.

When a person throws out a "those that don't hold to biblical instruction" zinger, what they're really doing forum-wise is throwing out a little flame along with a holier than though attitude. That's why we're so big on phrasing things with "I statements" such as "I believe" or "in my experience" or "I have found." With one of these or other variations a person can make their case but without criticizing others whose sole difference might just be interpreting scripture a little differently.

IME, when two people are in disagreement, saying "I"m right is the same as saying "you're" wrong.

Sometimes it's not about "you" statements so much as it is about what God *really* says (subjective interpretation).

For the most part, I have pretty thick skin, and I also really try to be diplomatic. People react emotionally to the topics of marriage, divorce, remarriage, abuse, submission, etc. That is natural, since it touches on a person's perceived sense of identity (values, beliefs, power balance, etc).
Even when we are tactful, imo, this is more about policy, and how those policies affect the people they are meant to serve.

Good observation. The "recommending divorce as a last resort aspect" is going to be reassessed by our advisors and admins as A New Dawn stated.

Unless the other party we are discussing things with is really out there or involved in sin, and we feel we have to get their attention, the "your wrong" and "I'm right" should not be present in a discussion. However there is this phenomenon that happens in internet discussions. Sometimes, and I'll use myself as an example, someone will say something different than what I'm saying and what I hear is someone telling me I'm wrong. But what they're really saying is they do it differently than me. They're really not telling me anything negative. It is my perception. That's where giving the other person the benefit of the doubt is very important IMO.

 

[ValleyGal]

Good observation. The "recommending divorce as a last resort aspect" is going to be reassessed by our advisors and admins as A New Dawn stated.

I have to say that I am grateful to the admin, to you, and to A New Dawn for the opportunity to discuss this. I appreciate their openness on the issue and their willingness to re-evaluate the policy.

Unless the other party we are discussing things with is really out there or involved in sin, and we feel we have to get their attention, the "your wrong" and "I'm right" should not be present in a discussion. However there is this phenomenon that happens in internet discussions. Sometimes, and I'll use myself as an example, someone will say something different than what I'm saying and what I hear is someone telling me I'm wrong. But what they're really saying is they do it differently than me. They're really not telling me anything negative. It is my perception. That's where giving the other person the benefit of the doubt is very important IMO.

Yes, sometimes people come right out and say "you're wrong, this is what is really says" (when discussing the Bible). I'm sure you've seen it in places like GT or Ethics/Morality. It goes along with what mkgal said about "those who don't hold to biblical instruction".

Communication is tricky....we are all learning how to do it effectively.

 

[Chaplain David]

I have to say that I am grateful to the admin, to you, and to A New Dawn for the opportunity to discuss this. I appreciate their openness on the issue and their willingness to re-evaluate the policy.

Yes, sometimes people come right out and say "you're wrong, this is what is really says" (when discussing the Bible). I'm sure you've seen it in places like GT or Ethics/Morality. It goes along with what mkgal said about "those who don't hold to biblical instruction".

Communication is tricky....we are all learning how to do it effectively.
[/size]

Thank you for your contributions too.

Working together in Jesus' name we can move mountains. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

Thank you for your contributions too.

Working together in Jesus' name we can move mountains. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

I second that. A big thanks to staff for hearing us out.

 

[LinkH]

This is my point, though. Who are we loving? No one, not even God. By supporting these marriages to stay together, you are not loving the abuser by letting them get away without serious consequences to their equally serious behaviour. And for the abused spouse, we are not loving them by suggesting they need to stay married to someone who is abusing them. There is no love. Therefore, since God is love, there is no godliness in this type of situation.

I don't relate to your line of reasoning at all. I was posting about verbal abuse. Jesus loved sinners who physically abused Him to the point of nailing Him on a cross. He still loved them. Peter glorified God by his death, according to John, which tradition tells us was an upside down crucifixion.

I'm not advising letting an abuser get away with abusive behavior either.

If we are talking about verbal abuse, let's say a man is married to a woman who occasionally gets angry and calls him a loser and insults his mother. Is it 'not love' if we don't tell the man to divorce his wife... over verbal abuse?

I know someone insulting you all the time can wear you down, especially if you begin to believe that person. It's not a pretty thing. But the Bible never says that is grounds for divorce. Not every spouse of someone who posts here is a Christian either.

I don't believe the reason we have more divorce in society these days than a couple of generations ago is because society or the church is more loving. I think the problem is rampant sin and the breakdown of needed social more's for the most part.

How do we measure love? Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. He also said that if a man puts away His wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, he commits adultery. And he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery.

He didn't say it wasn't adultery if your wife hit you in the head with a rolling pin and you put her away and married someone else. That doesn't make it not adultery. Adultery occurs when there is divorce and remarriage, not physically protecting yourself in another location, but remarrying someone else contrary to what Christ taught here in the passage.

I realize there are extreme situations. Normally, a king's general should stay with his king and continue to serve him on the battle field. But Saul was throwing spears at David and trying to kill him, so David ran away. But he still would not raise his hand against the Lord's anointed. He did not participate in any conspiracies to make another man (which would be himself in this case) king in the place of Saul while Saul was still alive. He did run to save his life. But he wasn't unfaithful to his king or to His God. Normally, a wife should stay by her husband. There are some people in extreme situations, but that doesn't justify their sinning against God.

Grounds for divorce include a hard heart. It is unloving to suggest that people with hard hearts should stay married. Sure, you can respond by saying "Jesus said it was not that way from the beginning, etc" but we are not in the beginning. We live in a sinful world. Jesus was basically saying that we need to keep our hearts soft toward our spouse in order to lessen the chances of divorce.

Also, I can understand restrictions on advising divorce. Anyone with an email address can get an account here and give any kind of advice.

 

[HannahT]

If we are talking about verbal abuse, let's say a man is married to a woman who occasionally gets angry and calls him a loser and insults his mother. Is it 'not love' if we don't tell the man to divorce his wife... over verbal abuse?

Link we aren't talking about 'occasionally' - that's called being a jerk.

Verbal abuse is a habitual pattern of behavior.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

I also believe this is where the problem lies - people don't even understand what verbal abuse IS!

Someone that occasionally being mean can be qualified as being normal is some ways. I'm not saying everyone DOES what you mentioned of course! We all have our ways of being ugly - just because we want to.

Someone that is abusive does so because they feel they are losing the power within the relationship. In other words they are losing their top dog status, and they only way to get it back (in their mind) is to tear down the other. They also are threatened by to the good points of their partner. For example, if they get complemented on something the abuser partner will make negative remarks about the complement. Its a systemic thing - not being a human idiot on occasion. lol which of course we can all be guilty of at times!

 

[Mrs. Luther073082]

Just to clarify - in my earlier post in this thread - I was not saying that I feel verbal abuse by itself is grounds for divorce. I believe only in Biblical grounds for divorce. However, the OP in the thread that we are all discussing had both Biblical grounds (adultery) and grounds for divorce according to CF's site rules (being in danger).

 

[Chaplain David]

Link we aren't talking about 'occasionally' - that's called being a jerk.

Verbal abuse is a habitual pattern of behavior.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

I also believe this is where the problem lies - people don't even understand what verbal abuse IS!

Someone that occasionally being mean can be qualified as being normal is some ways. I'm not saying everyone DOES what you mentioned of course! We all have our ways of being ugly - just because we want to.

Someone that is abusive does so because they feel they are losing the power within the relationship. In other words they are losing their top dog status, and they only way to get it back (in their mind) is to tear down the other. They also are threatened by to the good points of their partner. For example, if they get complemented on something the abuser partner will make negative remarks about the complement. Its a systemic thing - not being a human idiot on occasion. lol which of course we can all be guilty of at times!

Good points.

Just to clarify - in my earlier post in this thread - I was not saying that I feel verbal abuse by itself is grounds for divorce. I believe only in Biblical grounds for divorce. However, the OP in the thread that we are all discussing had both Biblical grounds (adultery) and grounds for divorce according to CF's site rules (being in danger).

Thank you.

 

[Chaplain David]

This narrative from gotquestions.org is probably closest to what I personally believe about divorce:

http://www.gotquestions.org/grounds-for-divorce.html

 

[Puffinstuff]

Of course Im only a human.But I would rather be cheated on one time and endure that.Than a pattern of ongoing mental and emotional abuse that would not stop.And although we aren't children we know emotional and mental abuse of children can cause crippling affects and is considered abuse as well.

I think of it this way as far as the verbal abuse prov.12 vrs 18

18There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise [is] health.

Maybe I misinterpret but this seems to indicate Biblically a correlation between physical pain and mental pain being compared.

Also noted for me is Jesus did not only have to endure physical pain but with that he was mocked and verbally put down at his crucifiction.If it was only about his pain and suffering physically why was he also toyed with and laughed at verbally?Even the crown of thorns of course physically torturous but was also to try and mentally humiliate him.

I would be wary of underestimating mental /emotional abuse as it pertains to someone being in "danger" at the hands of an abuser.

 

[Avniel]

Of course Im only a human.But I would rather be cheated on one time and endure that.Than a pattern of ongoing mental and emotional abuse that would not stop.And although we aren't children we know emotional and mental abuse of children can cause crippling affects and is considered abuse as well.

I think of it this way as far as the verbal abuse prov.12 vrs 18



Maybe I misinterpret but this seems to indicate Biblically a correlation between physical pain and mental pain being compared.

Also noted for me is Jesus did not only have to endure physical pain but with that he was mocked and verbally put down at his crucifiction.If it was only about his pain and suffering physically why was he also toyed with and laughed at verbally?Even the crown of thorns of course physically torturous but was also to try and mentally humiliate him.

I would be wary of underestimating mental /emotional abuse as it pertains to someone being in "danger" at the hands of an abuser.

I would rather be called stupid then someone punch me. You can't put physical violence on the same level as verbally abusing.

 

[Avniel]

There are people in the world that are not affected by verbal abuse. Feeling depression is a luxury, feeling verbally abused is a luxury. There are people in the world that can not feed themselves they struggle to find drinking water. I say it constantly I have been to some of the poorest countries, I have been to some of the meanest and most dangerous areas of the world. In those places if you ask a wife how does it make her feel that her husband calls her "fat and stupid everyday" her response is going to be different because she isn't worried about that it's not on her radar.

I still stand firm if you are not in physical danger I don't believe divorce should even be suggested.


"Why they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."
Asunder- Apart; separate from each other; into parts; in two; separately; into or in different pieces or places.

It's not our place to encourage others to divorce, not only is it sinful it's wrong. What I think is going to happen is that every person with a problem(women mostly) will be advised to divorce to push a feminist agenda, IMO. This will lead to arguments because there will be posters that are going to be upset and feel morally compelled to stand up and say this does not agree with the word of God. Then posters will become upset there will be a back and forth constantly and new bad blood will develop between posters.

A lot of people wonder why we can't talk about submission however we can talk about husband's loving their wives as Christ loved the church. The answer is that most posters on this forum agree that husband's need to love their wives as Christ loved the church with or without submission. However when it comes to submission many posters feel it is not..........I don't know how to word it so I am just going to needed. My point is the Mods need to put suggesting divorce in the same box submission is in. It is going to cause to many problems and that is probably why it is not allowed.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I don't relate to your line of reasoning at all. I was posting about verbal abuse. Jesus loved sinners who physically abused Him to the point of nailing Him on a cross. He still loved them. Peter glorified God by his death, according to John, which tradition tells us was an upside down crucifixion.

I know someone insulting you all the time can wear you down, especially if you begin to believe that person. It's not a pretty thing. But the Bible never says that is grounds for divorce. Not every spouse of someone who posts here is a Christian either.

I don't believe the reason we have more divorce in society these days than a couple of generations ago is because society or the church is more loving. I think the problem is rampant sin and the breakdown of needed social more's for the most part.

How do we measure love? Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. He also said that if a man puts away His wife, except it be for fornication, and marries another, he commits adultery. And he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery.

He didn't say it wasn't adultery if your wife hit you in the head with a rolling pin and you put her away and married someone else. That doesn't make it not adultery. Adultery occurs when there is divorce and remarriage, not physically protecting yourself in another location, but remarrying someone else contrary to what Christ taught here in the passage.

I realize there are extreme situations. Normally, a king's general should stay with his king and continue to serve him on the battle field. But Saul was throwing spears at David and trying to kill him, so David ran away. But he still would not raise his hand against the Lord's anointed. He did not participate in any conspiracies to make another man (which would be himself in this case) king in the place of Saul while Saul was still alive. He did run to save his life. But he wasn't unfaithful to his king or to His God. Normally, a wife should stay by her husband. There are some people in extreme situations, but that doesn't justify their sinning against God.

Link, nothing against you personally. But when I mention that certain voices in these threads tend to overrun other opinions to the point that theirs become the only 'truth' on the matter of marriage and divorce, the above quotes are exactly what I am talking about. This is where I believe admins can help to enforce the rule regarding advising separation or divorce when someone is in a dangerous situation and not be browbeaten into believing that it is somehow 'godly' or 'glorifying to Him' to stay.

 

[ValleyGal]

Quote from Link"

I don't relate to your line of reasoning at all. I was posting about verbal abuse. Jesus loved sinners who physically abused Him to the point of nailing Him on a cross. He still loved them. Peter glorified God by his death, according to John, which tradition tells us was an upside down crucifixion.

That whole post had me seeing red, but I will shut up because I refuse to take this thread off topic like Link did.

The above quote, however, is a prime example of what can go on these boards which puts spouses in danger. Expecting people to stay in abusive situations to emulate Christ or Peter in their marriage is completely insane. This hits close to home for me, as I used to work with a nurse whose husband was physically abusive. Little did I know when I told her "you need to leave or he will eventually kill you" that it was prophetic. She responded that she could not leave because they were Christians and it would be sin for her to leave. Instead she ended up dead at his hands.

I also know people who have committed suicide because of verbal abuse from others. I know some who have refused medical treatment because they saw their impending death as a "way out" of a verbally abusive marriage.

Does this forum want to be responsible for some people's deaths at the hands of abusers? I know I don't. When I stand before God and account for the things I say and do to others, I want to be clean....I do not want to be a stumbling block and I do not want to be responsible for their [ongoing] pain, suffering, or death.

Still seeing red..... Adrenaline flows....like a flooded river!

 

[Avniel]

Link, nothing against you personally. But when I mention that certain voices in these threads tend to overrun other opinions to the point that theirs become the only 'truth' on the matter of marriage and divorce, the above quotes are exactly what I am talking about. This is where I believe admins can help to enforce the rule regarding advising separation or divorce when someone is in a dangerous situation and not be browbeaten into believing that it is somehow 'godly' or 'glorifying to Him' to stay.

See this is what I am not understanding....It's ok to advise separation or divorce but it's not ok to recommend people stay together??? Why not recommend that said person prays to God and get's counseling so they can make a choice unaffected by others and more likely a choice that God would like them to make. I think telling someone to get a divorce is messy someone telling a person to stay married is messy as well. They deserve the right to make their own choices, notice that poster didn't post anymore here. She said I don't want to divorce my husband....then people came in drones suggesting it, not only that there was jokes about it "oh you beat me to it lol" about this ladies marriage???

No matter what the mods say I stand firm I know it's sinful people have a right to be encouraged and not coerced to get a divorce and not browbeaten to stay marriage.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

See this is what I am not understanding....It's ok to advise separation or divorce but it's not ok to recommend people stay together??? Why not recommend that said person prays to God and get's counseling so they can make a choice unaffected by others and more likely a choice that God would like them to make. I think telling someone to get a divorce is messy someone telling a person to stay married is messy as well. They deserve the right to make their own choices, notice that poster didn't post anymore here. She said I don't want to divorce my husband....then people came in drones suggesting it, not only that there was jokes about it "oh you beat me to it lol" about this ladies marriage???

No matter what the mods say I stand firm I know it's sinful people have a right to be encouraged and not coerced to get a divorce and not browbeaten to stay marriage.

Avniel, don't even try this with me. You know the advice I give here and how I counsel people with these issues. If not, you are free to do a search of all my posts on the marriage boards to see how many times I have advocated counseling and seeking Pastoral help vs. telling someone to divorce. I also have professional experience in Domestic Violence counseling and with the court system dealing with DV cases. Not once did I advise any of my former clients to divorce. God bless.

 

[MessianicMommy]

I would rather be called stupid then someone punch me. You can't put physical violence on the same level as verbally abusing.

Yet the Bible tells us that tongues are as sharp as swords and have the power of life and death over us.

We're also told over and over how we ought to treat each other (equitably, lovingly), and that when it comes to physicalities, that if someone is hurt - whatever the value of their damage is required in court. A wife is to be as beloved of her husband as he is to her - moreso than their own bodies.

How can one love themselves if they're hating/hitting/gaslighting/verbally absuing their spouse? Honestly, they aren't.

You and Link keep bringing Submission into this, forgetting that several of us who have a different belief subset, believe in mutual submission of spouses. There isn't ((iirc)) a belief set here that believes that there is no submission at all. There is perhaps different wording being used, but that's really neither here nor there.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

See this is what I am not understanding....It's ok to advise separation or divorce but it's not ok to recommend people stay together??? Why not recommend that said person prays to God and get's counseling so they can make a choice unaffected by others and more likely a choice that God would like them to make. I think telling someone to get a divorce is messy someone telling a person to stay married is messy as well. They deserve the right to make their own choices, notice that poster didn't post anymore here. She said I don't want to divorce my husband....then people came in drones suggesting it, not only that there was jokes about it "oh you beat me to it lol" about this ladies marriage???

No matter what the mods say I stand firm I know it's sinful people have a right to be encouraged and not coerced to get a divorce and not browbeaten to stay marriage.

I thought we weren't allowed to advice divorce in this section? Your saying its the opposite? If so then rules need to be changed. We should give advice obviously but not tell someone specifically what they should do. Although in my case I NEVER suggest divorce. I don't even believe in it not matter what the bible says. You fight for your marriage, because if you don't the vows you gave to your spouse in front of God are rendered pointless.