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LinkH

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We also need to keep in mind that the Bible says nothing about verbal abuse being grounds for divorce. This is called 'Christianforums.'

I'm not saying verbal abuse is not a terrible thing. It is a horrible thing to live under. But I don't see why the forum should allow for advising divorce for verbal abuse since it isn't based on anything in scripture or even church traditions if you are Catholic as far as I know.
 
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motherprayer

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I think the problem keeps coming back to the fact that separation does not offer the protection that divorce does, since they are still considered married.

The same protections are offered to those who are married, and to those divorced, its really not much. A married woman can file a PFA on her husband even if she hasn't filed for divorce, but abusers generally don't see that as much deterrent.
 
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ValleyGal

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PFA (whatever that is) aside, separation is not the same as divorce. Not legally. A separated woman has no protection because he is still her husband.

A PFA will not protect, as I said earlier. But your concerns about divorce and separation were addressed a few times already in this thread. There is a difference. Iirc it was MessianicMommy who addressed it. See posts 71 and 77.
 
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ValleyGal

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We also need to keep in mind that the Bible says nothing about verbal abuse being grounds for divorce. This is called 'Christianforums.'

I'm not saying verbal abuse is not a terrible thing. It is a horrible thing to live under. But I don't see why the forum should allow for advising divorce for verbal abuse since it isn't based on anything in scripture or even church traditions if you are Catholic as far as I know.

This is my point, though. Who are we loving? No one, not even God. By supporting these marriages to stay together, you are not loving the abuser by letting them get away without serious consequences to their equally serious behaviour. And for the abused spouse, we are not loving them by suggesting they need to stay married to someone who is abusing them. There is no love. Therefore, since God is love, there is no godliness in this type of situation.

Grounds for divorce include a hard heart. It is unloving to suggest that people with hard hearts should stay married. Sure, you can respond by saying "Jesus said it was not that way from the beginning, etc" but we are not in the beginning. We live in a sinful world. Jesus was basically saying that we need to keep our hearts soft toward our spouse in order to lessen the chances of divorce.

However, that is a discussion for another time, maybe. Still, I need to ask:

Who are we loving? God is love....
 
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ImaginaryDay

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Anybody that thinks verbal abuse is not dangerous is sorely mistaken. When I was in an abusive relationship, my ex's abuse was mostly verbal/emotional up until shortly before I finally left him. The OP of the thread that triggered this discussion mentioned some things her husband said to her that sounded much like the things my ex said to me. However, SOME of the things she mentioned (him showing her pictures of other women and talking about cheating on her) were extremes I did not experience with my ex. I was mostly told I couldn't do anything right, was lazy, would never finish school or amount to anything, would never be able to get anybody else if I left him, would be a bad mother if I ever had children, etc. Even without being told about being cheated on like the OP in the other thread, I was already suicidal (I had made a will, had a detailed plan of how to do it, etc). One day, I must have indicated as much to my ex. His response to that was to grab one of his guns out of the closet and hand it to me, telling me to go ahead and do it. When I left him, the extent of physical things he had done were to grab me by my arms one time and also to have shoved me to the floor in our apartment (an event where the neighbors wanted to call the police and I told them not to). He had put me in danger in other ways, however - for example, one time I had a panic attack in Old Navy and we had to leave the store. His response to my panic attack was to drive around like an enraged maniac through Atlanta, putting us both in danger and everybody else in our path in danger, too.

I don't see how anybody could recommend anything less than separation from someone who is abusive. When there is adultery involved in an abusive situation - frankly, I think it is a blessing in disguise and I think there absolutely should be advice for divorce and nothing less than that - ever.

We also need to keep in mind that the Bible says nothing about verbal abuse being grounds for divorce. This is called 'Christianforums.'

I'm not saying verbal abuse is not a terrible thing. It is a horrible thing to live under. But I don't see why the forum should allow for advising divorce for verbal abuse since it isn't based on anything in scripture or even church traditions if you are Catholic as far as I know.

I put the two quotes together to juxtapose a typical OP that we might get here on the forum vs. a typical response. If I were to present any biblical advice that went against Link's response, or even suggest counseling or separation, it would be roundly criticised in short order. Clearly Mrs.Luther is describing a dangerous situation, but because it did not escalate in the beginning to physical abuse, I would be reminded by certain posters that anyone who divorces "except it be for fornication...committeth adultery", shaming the OP in the process.

If the rule is such that we are allowed to advise separation or divorce in dangerous situations, then administration needs to enforce that rule when it is challenged openly by those who counsel women/men to stay in abusive marriages because no 'fornication' is taking place.
 
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motherprayer

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PFA (whatever that is) aside, separation is not the same as divorce. Not legally. A separated woman has no protection because he is still her husband.

This is not true. I've experience this entire situation :-/

A legally married woman who is separated from her husband and granted a PFA is afforded the same protection as a legally separated or divorced woman. If the PFA stipulated that he is not to contact her, he cannot contact her. She can also be granted emergency custody via the PFA, which I was granted, that awards her temporary emergency custody, which will also protect her from him taking any children they have for a "visit" and running away with them.

My PFA stipulated that not only could my legal husband contact me, he could not vicariously contact me through any of his friends or relatives. I was legally married to my husband the duration of the PFA.

This is important information for battered woman to have, so they can KNOW they are protected even if they are not yet ready to take the steps to legally file for divorce.
 
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mkgal1

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We also need to keep in mind that the Bible says nothing about verbal abuse being grounds for divorce. This is called 'Christianforums.'

I'm not saying verbal abuse is not a terrible thing. It is a horrible thing to live under. But I don't see why the forum should allow for advising divorce for verbal abuse since it isn't based on anything in scripture or even church traditions if you are Catholic as far as I know.

If a person is looking for the specific words....."in the case of emotional and/or verbal abuse.....one is able to divorce and be within the perfect will of God".....you're right, the Bible doesn't say that. But, however, if one looks at the message of the full Bible----the "Good News".....love is the highest law. Jesus has one agenda....a purpose (He came to bring life to us----abundant life)....and our enemy has an opposing agenda (his is to steal/kill/destroy)....that's all in John 10:10. Whose agenda are we "promoting" .....or furthering when we suggest that a person continue to try or hope for another to "repent", when they're having their life stolen right out of them? Does that portray the "abundant life"? Does that sound like "Good News"?

That may sound dramatic.....or like an over reaction, but unless a person has lived under this sort of abuse.....there's no way to understand how soul crushing it can be.

The Bible *does* say....."if your brother or sister sins against you [not loving is a sin].....go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over [that's the healthy response]. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If they still refuse to listen [sign of a hardened heart---not a lack of communication skills between them], tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." The trouble is......there's just not enough support from most churches (as it's already been mentioned).
 
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ValleyGal

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Anyone can get a PFA. Go back to page 8. There are good responses there. A protection order does not protect. Women attempting to access services for abuse generally are faced with policies that state they must initiate divorce in order to access help. They need to do this to show they are willing to protect themselves and not return back to the abuser. At least where I live. So we can't simply rely on what everyone else is doing and what other's policies are about it. There is no difference between a separated woman and a married women. Go back and read MessianicMommy's posts and also MKGal's posts on this. Your question has been addressed by both of them.
 
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mkgal1

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Hi Mkgal1,

I'm not getting what you're saying. Would you please clarify? Are you saying you can't discuss healthy love dynamics and working through problems in the Married Couples forum?

Faithfully,

:groupray:

A34 did a great job of clarifying for me what the typical dynamic is here, in this subforum. I see the same problem he mentioned as being dominate.

In all sincerity (and bluntness).....yes, that's what I'm saying.....that we are a bit stifled in discussing healthy love dynamics and working through problems in the MC forum.
 
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mkgal1

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One thing I feel is that I judged my second husband by my first husband's actions. It's always easy to look back on something and say "I over-reacted", because who's to say that it would have gone farther than it did? At that point, it was what I brought to the relationship that dictated my action at that point. Was it getting harder and harder to function in that relationship, even putting aside the throwing of things? Yes, but had I had the tools to put things in perspective, even for a little while longer, who's to say that he wouldn't have changed and considered going to a counselor. That is all I'm thinking. I can't say it is regret, but it did affect my daughter's life, and it affected the life of my 3rd marriage till my daughter went off to college and I didn't have to deal with him anymore.

I'm sure you don't wish for this thread to become about your very personal experiences....but, I wanted to point out that you *did* give your ex husband more time to demonstrate to you his true character (and lack or remorse or any change in character). I'm only presuming....but, by saying that he continued to affect even your 3rd marriage.....it sounds to me as if it was all him (IOW.....*don't* think you could have done any more or that there *could* have been a different outcome, had *you* only tried more).
 
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Chaplain David

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A34 did a great job of clarifying for me what the typical dynamic is here, in this subforum. I see the same problem he mentioned as being dominate.

In all sincerity (and bluntness).....yes, that's what I'm saying.....that we are a bit stifled in discussing healthy love dynamics and working through problems in the MC forum.

Thanks. :) Sounds like something we need to work on. :amen:
 
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mkgal1

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The Evangelical Covenant Church has a lot of great resources. IMO....they are taking the Scripture seriously as it pertains to loving God.....doing justice....and loving kindness (Micah 6:8).

Dos and Don'ts

Men are invited to join with the Evangelical Covenant Church to partner in the call to end violence against women and children. This work cannot be complete without the partnership of men and women working together. Women and men working together is the first movement toward unity, equality and peace.

Violence against women and children prevails simply because the infrastructure of our society supports it. The marginalization and devaluation of any people always makes them more vulnerable to harm. Only together can we dismantle belief systems, social structures, and institutional practices that oppress women and children and consequently dehumanize men as well.~http://www.covchurch.org/abuse/men-preventing-violence/
 
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mkgal1

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Another denomination that (IMO) does a thorough job of addressing abuse (and how it negatively impacts *everyone*) is the Greek Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Patristic Tradition and Wife Abuse — Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Along with the adverse effects that wife abuse inflicts on individuals, couples, families, and society, patristic tradition asserts that wife abuse also negatively impacts individual, couple, and family religious and spiritual well-being. The remainder of this article will seek to briefly discuss why wife abuse can have a negative impact on spousal, marital, and family religious and spiritual well-being.
 
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Chaplain David

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Thanks MK.

Would it be helpful to post our Crisis Hotlines and Resources post which contains a number of abuse and domestic violence hotlines in the top of the Marriage Forum area? This is the link from a copy we have in Ask a Chaplain. http://www.christianforums.com/t7618564/

:groupray:
 
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Chaplain David

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Also the originator of the thread is a male WalksWithChrist and Avneil is as well.So 5 at least men.
That's good to hear. I might have been having a small senior moment. :holy:
 
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mkgal1

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Thanks MK.

Would it be helpful to post our Crisis Hotlines and Resources post which contains a number of abuse and domestic violence hotlines in the top of the Marriage Forum area? This is the link from a copy we have in Ask a Chaplain. http://www.christianforums.com/t7618564/

:groupray:

Honestly......I think more than that is necessary (especially when it comes to emotional/spiritual/financial abuse). Most people don't see that for what it is. That's why I made the point earlier, that it'd be helpful if we could freely discuss what is/isn't healthy.
 
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