Conundrum about the death and the afterlife

[leftrightleftrightleft]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

However, the lack of an afterlife offers no such consolation when I consider those around me dying. If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss. Similarly, if those around me die, then I'm left to deal with them no longer existing while they simply no longer exist.

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

 

[True Scotsman]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

However, the lack of an afterlife offers no such consolation when I consider those around me dying. If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss. Similarly, if those around me die, then I'm left to deal with them no longer existing while they simply no longer exist.

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

There isn't any. I feel sad and it always makes me appreciate those who are still alive more. Makes me want to savor every minute with them and not take their presence for granted.

I can't take comfort in a belief that I have no way of validating. I'm not capable of lying to myself in that way.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

those who believe in Yeshua and are immersed in His Name have the only assurance of eternal life. (as it is written, many times, in Scripture).

those who don't believe in Yeshua, die and later are raised simply to be thrown in the lake of fire, with whatever amount of terror and suffering goes with that kind of unbelief.

(no religion can help - if it could, people would flock to it and gain assurance of eternal life that way. religion is deceitful and actually hurts people instead of helping them.)

..... " Isaiah 1:13-17 (MSG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
13-17 “Quit your worship charades.
I can’t stand your trivial religious games:
Monthly conferences, weekly Sabbaths, special meetings—
meetings, meetings, meetings—I can’t stand one more!
Meetings for this, meetings for that. I hate them!
You’ve worn me out!
I’m sick of your religion, religion, religion,
while you go right on sinning.
When you put on your next prayer-performance,
I’ll be looking the other way.
No matter how long or loud or often you pray,
I’ll not be listening.
And do you know why? Because you’ve been tearing
people to pieces, and your hands are bloody.
Go home and wash up.
Clean up your act.
Sweep your lives clean of your evildoings
so I don’t have to look at them any longer.
Say no to wrong.
Learn to do good.
Work for justice.
Help the down-and-out.
Stand up for the homeless.
Go to bat for the defenseless. "

 

[Davian]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

However, the lack of an afterlife offers no such consolation when I consider those around me dying. If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss. Similarly, if those around me die, then I'm left to deal with them no longer existing while they simply no longer exist.

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

There is none. I have never believed in any sort of afterlife.

Recently, we buried a family friend, and at 92, he was still healthy enough to live on his own, drive, and keep his own house (having lost his wife to ALS some years before, and no children).

I felt no sorrow at his passing - he had had quite the life (we talked at length on a regular basis) and he went suddenly.

However, wandering around the cemetery for a bit, I found myself choked up when I saw the collection of graves for the young ones. They are the ones that missed out on the party.

As for myself, I am under no illusion that I exist, beyond the phenomenal self. But that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Davian]

those who believe in Yeshua <snip>

Off-topic preaching. How distasteful.

 

[essentialsaltes]

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

It is difficult. If the person who is gone was dear to you, it is good to remember the good, but hard to realize the loss. Memory is what little surcease of sorrow there is.

"Oh cold, cold, rigid, dreadful Death, set up thine altar here, and dress it with such terrors as thou hast at thy command: for this is thy dominion! But of the loved, revered, and honoured head, thou canst not turn one hair to thy dread purposes, or make one feature odious. It is not that the hand is heavy and will fall down when released; it is not that the heart and pulse are still; but that the hand was open, generous, and true; the heart brave, warm, and tender; and the pulse a man’s. Strike, Shadow, strike! And see his good deeds springing from the wound, to sow the world with life immortal!"

 

[orangeness365]

1 Corinthians 15:12-19
The Resurrection of the Dead
12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hopeb in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[Eudaimonist]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

Yes, it is empowering.

For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

I can never promise you a sorrow-free death of loved ones. It will always hurt some.

If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss.

Your loved ones will be with you in memory, and in their influence on your values. It is possible to cherish their lives even when those lives are now complete and the great "The End" has come to their personal stories.

Yes, there is genuine loss in that they are not physically present anymore. However, that doesn't mean that one should be entirely negative and focus only on loss. There are still values there for oneself to focus on. As much of a shock as the death of a loved one can be, if one faces that death honestly and squarely, and does one's best to deal with that death positively (which may be challenging at first), it is possible to regain one's emotional equilibrium and move on with life with that loved one in one's heart. I know this from personal experience.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

However, the lack of an afterlife offers no such consolation when I consider those around me dying. If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss. Similarly, if those around me die, then I'm left to deal with them no longer existing while they simply no longer exist.

Ok.

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness.

Just so I understand your problem correctly:
Above you seemed to say that you´d suffer from losing them, no more being around.
Now you seem to say that if they had and afterlife and you hadn´t you wouldn´t have that sense of total loss and sadness (even though they wouldn´t be around)?

For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

I don´t seem to look for consolace in tough times. Life is drama, and drama comes with suffering, there´s no way around that. Life is not like we´d dream it up, and I never expected it to be.
But maybe you can look at it that way: One day you´ll be dead as well, and your suffering from the loss of others will come to an end.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

I was surprised the first time I faced the death of a loved one after I became an atheist. It was surprising in a variety of ways, but one of the things I realized with the first death and with a few subsequent others was that the sadness I experienced wasn't any stronger than what I felt when I was a believer, and it didn't particularly last any longer. What I realized was that, whether or not I believed in an afterlife, I was trying to cope with the same thing: the loss of that person from this life.

And, at some basic level, the way we go about morning the loss of a loved one follows the same formula, no matter what you believe: you find comfort until you can find acceptance. While believing in an afterlife where you'll be reunited with the deceased is a great potential source of comfort, it is not the only one.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

However, the lack of an afterlife offers no such consolation when I consider those around me dying. If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss. Similarly, if those around me die, then I'm left to deal with them no longer existing while they simply no longer exist.

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

I was going to tell you that there is no consolation...but it seems others beat me to it. I will add that at least for me personally... the pain of those losses seems to diminish as I get older and death doesn't seem so bad. I understand the ceremony surrounding funerals and why it exists...but sometimes I think it separates that aspect of life (death) from normality. Perhaps if less ceremony and tradition were involved, death would seem as normal as birth (since it is) and with that normalcy comes acceptance.

I think it helps to focus on the memories of a loved one when they appeared content. I think I read somewhere that the part of the brain we use to imagine such things is the same part we use when we experience them in reality. So by picturing your loved one feeling contented and pleased with themselves (maybe at a holiday dinner or a particularly happy visit) it should help illicit in you the same feeling you would have if you were experiencing it firsthand.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well maybe we all lived forever then the planet would soon be overpopulated. I dont think death is programmed into the genes, we just dont survive that long. But perhaps thats no bad thing? It will always be sad to see loved ones go though, but there is consolation that the sands of time will roll on.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Thanks for all the great responses.

What I realized was that, whether or not I believed in an afterlife, I was trying to cope with the same thing: the loss of that person from this life.

This is a very good point. Belief in an afterlife doesn't really effect the mourning of the person who is now gone in this life.

I always find it strange that Christians mourn so much…aren't they going to see them again anyway? It doesn't seem like religious people handle the loss any better or worse than non-religious people, despite the fact that one believes they will see them again and one believes they are gone forever.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

However, the lack of an afterlife offers no such consolation when I consider those around me dying. If I die, it doesn't matter to me. But those around me will be left to mourn with little consolation. There is only loss. Similarly, if those around me die, then I'm left to deal with them no longer existing while they simply no longer exist.

So while the lack of an afterlife for me gives me a sense of empowerment, the lack of an afterlife for others gives me a sense of total loss and sadness. For those that do not believe in an afterlife, what consolation is there when you see people die around you?

There isn't any. I feel absolute dread about death; those people are gone forever, and I don't know which is worse, thinking of how much time is left for those who are older than me whom I care about, or thinking about my own existence eventually ending.

 

[Tree of Life]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

The hope of eternal life does, in a sense, decrease the significance of this life. If, for instance, there is such an eternal life and there are things that are eternally valuable - things that exist and have value in this life and will continue to have value in the life to come - then by all means we should give ourselves to attaining the things that are of eternal value. This, indeed, does decrease the significance of things in this life that will lose their value in the next.

For instance, sensual pleasure is probably one of the most valuable things that there is in this life. Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die, as the saying goes. And sensual pleasure, from a Christian perspective, is a good thing. God created everything to be received with thanksgiving. But sensual pleasure of itself is not eternally valuable. If we give ourselves to the pursuit of sex, food, substance, fun, etc... at the expense of things that are of eternal value, like healthy relationships with God and people then we are foolish indeed. We've invested our whole lives in something that's not going to help us in eternity.

Power, too, is valuable in this life. If this life is all that we have then by all means we should seek to be as powerful as we can be. There's no reason to choose humility, suffering, or dishonor in this life if there is no eternal life.

But the priorities of the kingdom of God are very different. Because we have a hope of eternal life, eternal glory, power and pleasure in the world to come, we pursue knowledge of Jesus in this life and gladly endure suffering, dishonor, discomfort, and loss of what we perceive to be temporal things.

We favor the eternal. Of course this makes us look foolish in the eyes of the world, which has no eternal hope, but we're willing to look foolish now so that we may be glorified eternally.

 

[seeingeyes]

I was surprised the first time I faced the death of a loved one after I became an atheist. It was surprising in a variety of ways, but one of the things I realized with the first death and with a few subsequent others was that the sadness I experienced wasn't any stronger than what I felt when I was a believer, and it didn't particularly last any longer. What I realized was that, whether or not I believed in an afterlife, I was trying to cope with the same thing: the loss of that person from this life.

And, at some basic level, the way we go about morning the loss of a loved one follows the same formula, no matter what you believe: you find comfort until you can find acceptance. While believing in an afterlife where you'll be reunited with the deceased is a great potential source of comfort, it is not the only one.

This.

It is no comfort to say, "He's with God now" (or similar "comforting" cliche) to someone who just wants their loved one here.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Power, too, is valuable in this life.

Is it? For what?

I can see how sensual pleasure has value, but I don't see how power has value aside from establishing a good government.

If this life is all that we have then by all means we should seek to be as powerful as we can be. There's no reason to choose humility, suffering, or dishonor in this life if there is no eternal life.

Not really true. Humility can keep one away from dangerously irrational ego trips. Honor is not worth as much as integrity, and so dishonor is easily accepted for the sake of one's principles. I can't imagine why someone would choose suffering, but if there is a greater value at stake, it may be chosen.

None of this requires belief in eternal life. It simply requires a philosophical perspective on life. For instance, Epicurus would place "power" in his list of easily discarded values for the sake of peace of mind, and the Stoics would agree. Neither group bases their moral views on life after death.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[PsychoSarah]

This.

It is no comfort to say, "He's with God now" (or similar "comforting" cliche) to someone who just wants their loved one here.

Or to someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife

 

[juvenissun]

If there is no afterlife, from my perspective, it makes this life more meaningful. Any form of an afterlife decreases the significance and importance of the life I am living now. Furthermore, if there is no afterlife, then if I die tomorrow, it does not matter to "me" because there will be no "me" to regret it or feel sadness. I will be gone and non-existent. The lack of an afterlife inspires a greater sense of purpose and significance in this life as well as a 'seize the day' mentality that wants to live each moment as if its your last. I find it empowering.

What if the life after death is a continuum of this life? How does that life make this life meaningless?

 

[PsychoSarah]

What if the life after death is a continuum of this life? How does that life make this life meaningless?

He said it gave it less meaning, not that it made it meaningless