Contraception

[NyssaTheHobbit]

Hell I wouldn;t even have a CLUE what to do if I had a kid! I would be constantly crying freaking out over every little thing. The first time it got sick..I would likely die of a heart attack. Heck I have never even held a baby not once! So do you all think it would still be wise for me to try to have kids?

LOL....Don't worry about that. I was the same way. Now I have a 3 1/2 year old, who is doing just fine. You learn along the way.

 

[Lotar]

I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

The average number of children for couples who CLAIM they use no contraception is 7. Note the word CLAIM.

One of your many problems, in this area, is that you wrongly think YOUR method of contraception is God-approved, while all others are wrong and sinful.

Natural Family Planning - The Rhythm Method - Sympto-Thermal Method... They're ALL contraception.

Actually, those other methods are Birth Control, but are not contraceptives. I explained the difference earlier, but that is still beside the point, because I know couples who have never used any of those methods ever and still have had only a handful of kids. My priest has 8 and my wife's godparents have 6, and neither would would have a problem telling us if they did use NFP.

My Protestant aunt and uncle only have one set of twins, despite not using any form of BC.

On larger levels, look at the Amish and ultra-Orthodox Jews; they have an average of between 7 and 8 children per woman, and they marry much earlier than the average American.

Most people now a days highly over estimate a woman's natural fertility.

 

[Lotar]

...and your wife has obviously never experienced postpartum depression, or dealt with a baby with colic - or experienced a whole host of other "blessings" that come with child rearing.

When we first got married, my wife wanted 8 kids. After having 1, she was down to 6. After our second son was born 6 weeks early, she thought she might want one more. And that's what we have.


You and your wife will both live and learn. I'll guarantee you that you will not be singing the same tune 20 years from now. But there's no way to tell somebody who already knows everything, that he has a lot to learn.

I'm sorry that your wife wimped out, but my wife is principled.

Now lets leave the wives out of it; you do not know my wife, nor I yours.

 

[IamAdopted]

I'm sorry that your wife wimped out, but my wife is principled.

LOL okay if that is what you call it. Any form of BC is contraception.. Doesn't matter what method it is.

 

[Lotar]

LOL okay if that is what you call it. Any form of BC is contraception.. Doesn't matter what method it is.

It's just a matter of definition: Not all BC is contraception. I was just splitting hairs.

I stated earlier why NFP can be acceptable sometimes:
1.) It does not violate either of the two uses of sex, because you are not having sex.
2.) It is an act of asceticism, not hedonism.
3.) It is generally only employed if the woman's body does not naturally space child birth. At which point it is really fixing what is broken, not breaking what is working.

 

[Jedi]

I'm sorry that your wife wimped out, but my wife is principled.

Wimped out? Give me a break. People are entitled to change their minds over a matter once they actually experience what they had previously only speculated about. It's easy for you to talk condescedingly of someone for not wanting to punch out as many kids as possible when you haven't had a single kid yourself.

Further still, you have absolutely no basis to suppose Parson's wife is not "principled." You speak out of ignorance and spite, which only further drags your name thorugh the mud.

How about you start answering my questions instead of slinging mud, pal? I grow tired of your childish antics.

It's just a matter of definition: Not all BC is contraception.

Not according to Webster:

Main Entry: con·tra·cep·tion
Pronunciation: "kän-tr&-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: contra- + conception
: deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation

 

[Lotar]

Wimped out? Give me a break. People are entitled to change their minds over a matter once they actually experience what they had previously only speculated about. It's easy for you to talk condescedingly of someone for not wanting to punch out as many kids as possible when you haven't had a single kid yourself.

Further still, you have absolutely no basis to suppose Parson's wife is not "principled." You speak out of ignorance and spite, which only further drags your name thorugh the mud.

How about you start answering my questions instead of slinging mud, pal? I grow tired of your childish antics.

LOL I'm the one slinging mud.

I have better things to do with my pearls.

 

[Jedi]

LOL I'm the one slinging mud.

No sense in trying to play it off. All anyone needs to do is read my quotations of you and your constantly condescending tone to those who don't wish to have as many kids as they can, labeling them as hedonistic, selfish, wimps, and unprincipled.

I have better things to do with my pearls.

Like hiding them, apparently. I have yet to see a single one or even an answer to a very direct, repeated question for that matter: what basis do you have from which to assert that procreation is a necessary purpose of all sexual activity and that any instance without that purpose in mind is inherently immoral?

 

[Chie]

Remember those who sling mud lose ground

 

[rocklife]

was sex meant for baby making alone? why is pleasant/ sweet? what does God say concerning sex?

I know of the son of Judah who got killed by God for spilling his sermen on the ground... whaat is the meaning of all this?

someone to PM me on this...pliz!!!

I believe it was his motive, God knows these secret things. Genesis 38:9-10 says "But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his sperm on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lord's sight; so he put him to death also." he apparently had a bad motive for his birth control, he was supposed to fulfill an obligation for his brother and he purposely didn't.

 

[Calliso]

LOL....Don't worry about that. I was the same way. Now I have a 3 1/2 year old, who is doing just fine. You learn along the way.

Yeah I guess that is a good point no one starts out confident in everything . But anyway I just donlt feel like couples should feel forced to have children. There is more to married life then just having kids.

 

[Assisi]

If these couples ONLY have 6 and 10 kids, respectively, THEY ARE USING CONTRACEPTION!

And here we see yet another fallacy of the anti-contraceptive mindset. The people who are always screaming about the evils of contraception inevitably use contraception.

 

[Lotar]

No sense in trying to play it off. All anyone needs to do is read my quotations of you and your constantly condescending tone to those who don't wish to have as many kids as they can, labeling them as hedonistic, selfish, wimps, and unprincipled.

We have gone through this before. Having as many kids as you can is not the same as not using contraception.

You say what you want, but I made no personal attacks, even after I was attacked time and again, until after for whatever reason it was decided that my wife was open game. I don't accept that plain and simple.

This conversation with you and PJ is finished.

If you guys want to sterilize yourselves and/or your wives, or contracept by whatever means, and treat your wives like harlots, then go right ahead. Less of you to contaminate the gene pool the better.

 

[Jedi]

We have gone through this before. Having as many kids as you can is not the same as not using contraception.

Splitting hairs again are we? If you're not using contraceptives and you're not suffocating the sexual intimacy between you and your spouse, you're on the road to having as many kids as you can (or close to it), presuming both of your sex drives are anything close to normal.

You say what you want, but I made no personal attacks, even after I was attacked time and again, until after for whatever reason it was decided that my wife was open game. I don't accept that plain and simple.

Oh, I see. So you attack even those who didn't attack her for the sake of her. That makes sense.

This conversation with you and PJ is finished.

Okay, Captain Copout. Not that you replied much to my questions in the first place (or answered a single question for that matter).

If you guys want to sterilize yourselves and/or your wives, or contracept by whatever means, and treat your wives like harlots, then go right ahead. Less of you to contaminate the gene pool the better.

Please, do society a favor and eternally abstain from sex for that purpose. We don't need more ignorant piety than we already have, refusing to give reason for their beliefs and pointing the finger of condemnation out of ignorant zeal. You're right next to the people who bomb abortion clinics and ram air planes into buildings. As you apparently can't even answer a simple question, labeling you a zealot is well founded and you remain ever so beneath my contempt. May God have mercy on your many children - when you actually get some. Perhaps when they ask questions, you'll actually have the grapes to answer them.

 

[Calliso]

We have gone through this before. Having as many kids as you can is not the same as not using contraception.

You say what you want, but I made no personal attacks, even after I was attacked time and again, until after for whatever reason it was decided that my wife was open game. I don't accept that plain and simple.

This conversation with you and PJ is finished.

If you guys want to sterilize yourselves and/or your wives, or contracept by whatever means, and treat your wives like harlots, then go right ahead. Less of you to contaminate the gene pool the better.

You know while I am not on birthcontrol right now *need to get back on bad though* during the time I was on birthcontrol..I NEVER felt like I was a harlot. I mean why should I feel like a harlot just because we used birthcontrol? Does non procreative sex automatically make me a harlot? My husband and I do not have unprotected sex..and I actually see this as him respecting me. He understands I have no desire for kids..he understands just how rough pregnancy giving birth and then taking care of the kid would be on me. He doesn;t want to put me through all that because he loves and respects me as a person. I am not just a sex object or a walking womb to him I am a person!

 

[Jedi]

Lotar doesn't understand all those things about respect, Calliso. That word hasn't made it into his vocabulary yet. Instead of answering questions people ask him, he just calls names. It's all he can do, as he clearly has no case to back up his zealous assumptions.

 

[fuzzymel]

I use contraception and am not a harlot.

I actually thought 'harlots' dont use contraception because the men don't like it and thats why there is so many STDs around.

 

[April Angel]

I'm sorry that your wife wimped out, but my wife is principled.

Now lets leave the wives out of it; you do not know my wife, nor I yours.

The birth of a baby can change a woman forever. I know of one very principled lady who preached about the virtues of Natural Family Planning for many years. She actively encouraged Catholic couples to leave themselves "open to life". The couples who listened to her, inevitably became pregnant many times during the
12 year period before this lady became pregnant herself, for the first time.

Following the birth of her baby, she changed her tune. She still managed to follow the Church's teachings on contraception but she no longer trusted Natural Family Planning. The fear of another pregnancy was too great for her. So she decided to become celibate against her husband's wishes. This is how she dealt with it.

If you guys want to sterilize yourselves and/or your wives, or contracept by whatever means, and treat your wives like harlots, then go right ahead. Less of you to contaminate the gene pool the better.

Let us have some respect for each other. Some couples cannot cope with more than a certain number of children. It is a wise woman and a wise man who admit their limits and, for the sake of their existing children, show respect for each other by using contraception. There are many couples who use ethical contraception for good reasons e.g. to preserve and protect the life of the woman. These couples do not deserve to be disrespected by references to harlots.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I really don't see threads such as this having a good purpose. People often just argue past each other; nobody is convinced. And now some pretty nasty words are being thrown around.

 

[Lotar]

The birth of a baby can change a woman forever. I know of one very principled lady who preached about the virtues of Natural Family Planning for many years. She actively encouraged Catholic couples to leave themselves "open to life". The couples who listened to her, inevitably became pregnant many times during the
12 year period before this lady became pregnant herself, for the first time.

Following the birth of her baby, she changed her tune. She still managed to follow the Church's teachings on contraception but she no longer trusted Natural Family Planning. The fear of another pregnancy was too great for her. So she decided to become celibate against her husband's wishes. This is how she dealt with it.

She went 12 years without being pregnant? I think she was sort of missing the point. She might as well have used contraception, because that is what she was what she wanted in her heart.

Just to make it clear, I am not saying the NFP is an acceptable form of BC. What I am saying is that it is acceptable, at times, under the guidance of your spiritual father. Which is usually just for the time that the woman's body should normally not be ovulating (ie, when you are breastfeeding, or would normally be breastfeeding).

Let us have some respect for each other. Some couples cannot cope with more than a certain number of children. It is a wise woman and a wise man who admit their limits and, for the sake of their existing children, show respect for each other by using contraception. There are many couples who use ethical contraception for good reasons e.g. to preserve and protect the life of the woman. These couples do not deserve to be disrespected by references to harlots.

There is no ethical use of contraception.

I will not judge or condemn individuals, but I will react to those who call my wife's character into question. If people cannot keep it from getting personal, then fine, I'll get personal. It'd be easier if we were talking face to face, then I'd punch them in the mouth and be done with it.