Contraception

[mont974x4]

The Bible is silent on the issue and God gave us sex for more than just procreation.

 

[Lotar]

Here's some interesting quotes from the 30's:

Dr. Walter Maier of Concordia Lutheran Theological Seminary:
Birth Control, as popularly understood today and involving the use of contraceptives, is one of the most repugnant of modern aberrations, representing a 20th century renewal of pagan bankruptcy."
Bishop Warren Chandler of the Methodist Episcopal Church South:
The whole disgusting [birth control] movement rests on the assumption of man's sameness with the brutes .... Its [the Federal Council of Churches] deliverance on the matter of birth control has no authorization from any churches representing it, and what it has said I regard as most unfortunate, not to use any stronger words. It certainly does not represent the MethodistChurch, and I doubt if it represents any other ProtestantChurch in what it has said on this subject.
The Presbyterian (April 2,1931):
Its [Federal Council of Churches] recent pronouncement on birth control should be enough reason, if there were no other, to withdraw from support of that body, which declares that it speaks for the Presbyterian and other Protestant churches in ex cathedra pronouncements.
The Southern Baptist Convention:
The SBC hereby expresses its disapproval of the ... bill, now pending before Congress of the United States, the purpose of which is to make possible and provide for the dissemination of information concerning contraceptives and birth control; whatever the intent and motive of such proposal we cannot but believe that such legislation would be vicious in character and would prove seriously detrimental to the morals of our nation.

 

[Lotar]

The abandonment of the reproductive function is the common feature of all perversions. We actually describe a sexual activity as perverse if it has given up the aim of reproduction and pursues the attainment of pleasure as an aim independent of it. So, as you will see, the breach and turning point in the development of sexual life lies in becoming subordinate to the purpose of reproduction. Everything that happens before this turn of events and equally everything that disregards it and that aims solely at obtaining pleasure is given the uncomplimentary name of "perverse" and as such is proscribed.


-Sigmund Freud

 

[mont974x4]

I don't think I'd be quoting Freud. He was well in favor of the whole if it feels good do it approach to sex. In fact, he thought it was unhealthy to ignore sexual urges..no matter how deviant they or what the Bible says on the matter.

 

[Jedi]

What I am saying is that it is acceptable, at times, under the guidance of your spiritual father...There is no ethical use of contraception.

Sounds like someone needs to get his story straight. Again, I post from Webster.com:

Main Entry: con·tra·cep·tion Pronunciation: \ˌkän-trə-ˈsep-shən\ Function: noun Etymology: contra- + conception Date: 1886 : deliberate prevention of conception or impregnation

If you want to condemn contraception, you can't turn around and reaffirm "Natural Family Planning." Either contraception is bad or it's not and it's something else you're arguing against.

I will not judge or condemn individuals, but I will react to those who call my wife's character into question.

You've reacted by judging and condemning individuals, even those who didn’t talk about your wife at all. Further still, you start condemning other people’s wives. Having done the very thing you condemn others for, how can you point the finger at them? You are no better, being guilty of the very thing you claim to be defending against.

If people cannot keep it from getting personal, then fine, I'll get personal. It'd be easier if we were talking face to face, then I'd punch them in the mouth and be done with it.

There’s an intelligent response for you. “Lotar smash! Lotar smash!” Time to go back to your cave, Neanderthal.

And I wouldn't appeal to Freud as an authority on how sexuality ought to be. He also suggested all women are masocists because they enjoy sex, which often hurts for women. Is your wife a masocist? If not, then perhaps Freud wasn't quite on the ball concerning human sexuality.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question. You've become too predictable in your apparent inability to do so.

 

[April Angel]

She went 12 years without being pregnant? I think she was sort of missing the point. She might as well have used contraception, because that is what she was what she wanted in her heart

.

She was not married during that time. Once she got married she did practice what she preached for a while. But then she changed her mind when it was her body on the line. Once she knew, through experience, what she was talking about, her views about being "open to life" changed. She realised how hard pregnancy and giving birth can be for an older woman. The realisation that pregnancy and birth can be life-threatening for an older woman changed her views.

There is no ethical use of contraception.

Maybe not for a couple in their twenties but not everyone reading this board is in their twenties.

 

[Fantine]

She went 12 years without being pregnant? I think she was sort of missing the point. She might as well have used contraception, because that is what she was what she wanted in her heart.

Just to make it clear, I am not saying the NFP is an acceptable form of BC. What I am saying is that it is acceptable, at times, under the guidance of your spiritual father. Which is usually just for the time that the woman's body should normally not be ovulating (ie, when you are breastfeeding, or would normally be breastfeeding).

And yes, there are some women who experience many side effects of pregnancy, or difficult births, or difficult children, who still have lots of children. I had a friend when I was growing up whose Mom had 8 children. She had the worst varicose veins I'd ever seen in my life. She was RH negative (before Rhogam shots were discovered) and she also had five or six miscarriages. Whenever I saw her she was ironing, or cooking......And yet my friend always said her Mom loved children, even though whenever she got pregnant again my Mom and Grandma would shake their heads in dismay....I really believe that they felt if her husband loved her, he would have more self-control.




There is no ethical use of contraception.

I will not judge or condemn individuals, but I will react to those who call my wife's character into question. If people cannot keep it from getting personal, then fine, I'll get personal. It'd be easier if we were talking face to face, then I'd punch them in the mouth and be done with it.

I have heard that some people become interested in natural family planning because they have difficulty in conceiving, and want to be able to pinpoint exactly when they are most fertile.

And so this lady who was teaching natural family planning may have learned the skills precisely because she was having infertility problems, and that may be why it took her 12 years to get pregnant.

 

[Lotar]

...and your wife has obviously never experienced postpartum depression, or dealt with a baby with colic - or experienced a whole host of other "blessings" that come with child rearing.

When we first got married, my wife wanted 8 kids. After having 1, she was down to 6. After our second son was born 6 weeks early, she thought she might want one more. And that's what we have.


You and your wife will both live and learn. I'll guarantee you that you will not be singing the same tune 20 years from now. But there's no way to tell somebody who already knows everything, that he has a lot to learn.

My wife, after giving birth decided that she hopes we have more than the 8 she first wished for.

As I said months ago, you don't know my wife.

 

[NHB_MMA]

Lotar, good to see you again. I just got back on recently and I'll have to answer your PM.

Internet service is much better back home than down in the bayou.

Hope you're doing good.

 

[Armistead]

After our second child, I got clipped...easier than for my wife to go through it. Ours second child was unexpected and came late..she was 35 and also diabetic. We had him regardless of most Doctors saying the pregnacy would go bad. He was only 4.8 pounds, but grew into a healthy boy, now 10.

So the heck with borth control, get the ultimate control, get fixed...then you don't have to worry about it anymore....just be done having kids.

 

[Ave Maria]

hhhmm according to who is this sin?

According to the Universal Church throughout the ages. That's who.

 

[April Angel]

According to the Universal Church throughout the ages. That's who.

Umm.... weren't we arguing about abortion a couple of weeks ago. During which discussion you said that women have a right to choose. So how can you justify your statement above?

Surely contraception is the answer to the problem of abortion? Or have I missed something somewhere along the way???

 

[April Angel]

After our second child, I got clipped...easier than for my wife to go through it. Ours second child was unexpected and came late..she was 35 and also diabetic. We had him regardless of most Doctors saying the pregnacy would go bad. He was only 4.8 pounds, but grew into a healthy boy, now 10.

So the heck with borth control, get the ultimate control, get fixed...then you don't have to worry about it anymore....just be done having kids.

We tried doing that (getting fixed) but we found that there are too many possibilities for something going wrong. With vasectomies most of the complications occur weeks/months/years down the line. With female sterilization the problems are more immediate (death, infection, etc). So we've never been brave enough.

Although, most people are lucky enough to be healthy in their twenties and thirties, by the time you get to 40 pregnancy can be a dangerous option.

If I had my life over again, I would have had my tubes tied after my last child was born, when I was 38. Now I have too many health problems to risk surgery or pregnancy.

 

[April Angel]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

It's use and acceptance has always led quickly to the acceptance and use of abortion, and currently is destroying Western civilization, through the popularization of extra-maritial sex, and sub-replacement level birth rates.



Have fun discussing.

I would like to add one observation.

Your argument only works in a world where abortion is not freely available. Unfortunately, in our world, lack of contraception actually leads to abortion. I would also argue that in more primitive societies, lack of contraception could lead to illegal abortions. Not to mention the fact that lack of contraception can and does lead to maternal deaths from pregnancy. These deaths have been more prevalent in poorer, less developed countries. However, maternal deaths are now becoming less rare in England.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...ain.html?in_article_id=499235&in_page_id=1774

The report says this "reflects the growing incidence of acquired heart disease in younger women related to poor diets, smoking, alcohol and the growing epidemic of obesity". It called for overweight women who wanted children to receive counselling on the NHS to improve their lifestyle. And it condemns "the number of healthcare professionals who appeared to fail to identify and manage common medical conditions or potential emergencies outside their area of expertise".

Clearly, some women, especially those with heart disease, obesity, diabetes and other medical conditions need to use contraception.

 

[Trashionista]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

It's use and acceptance has always led quickly to the acceptance and use of abortion, and currently is destroying Western civilization, through the popularization of extra-maritial sex, and sub-replacement level birth rates.



Have fun discussing.

Yes, because everyone having 5 or 6 kids is so good for the environment.

I think one has a duty, if they're having sex, to protect themselves from unwanted consequences of that. If you don't want kids, we're in a situation where contraception is available. Easily available. There is no excuse. One has a duty if they don't want kids to take the proper precautions.

Just as if one doesn't want STIs, they have a duty to demand methods be used.

So, I'm whole-heartedly for contraception. As I am for personal responsibility.

 

[catlover]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

It's use and acceptance has always led quickly to the acceptance and use of abortion, and currently is destroying Western civilization, through the popularization of extra-maritial sex, and sub-replacement level birth rates.



Have fun discussing.

The use of contraception has improved the lives of women dramatically...the reason it has been condemned because male dominated instituations want to keep their power.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

The use of contraception has improved the lives of women dramatically...the reason it has been condemned because male dominated instituations want to keep their power.

What catlover said is true. I support contraception 100%. I'm a woman, not a baby factory!

 

[fuzzymel]

The use of contraception has improved the lives of women dramatically...the reason it has been condemned because male dominated instituations want to keep their power.

good point.

 

[Lotar]

It is a futile effort to paint the picture of the use of contraception as being for the advancement of woman's position in society, or "betterment" as some say, and an act against the "patriarchal system" that seeks to keep her down, or something of that sort. In the latter case it is exactly an act in conformity with the will of the "powers that be", so to speak, patriarchal or matriarchal, though I think now generally androgynous but nevertheless single-mindedly intent upon mobilizing the entire world for the furtherance of their wealth. In the former case it is indeed for the worsening of woman's position in society, both traditional and otherwise, and only benefits in any way the aforementioned "powers that be", or "establishment", or "despotic forces of avarice", and so on and so forth.

First and foremost we must see that the only sphere of society that is of any true importance is that of the Church, which for most of us means the parish and the home, which are the Church writ small, yet in its fullness. It is only in the Church that acts of eternal consequence take place, such as the taking part in prayer, the sacraments and the creation of a new soul, called procreation, and the subsequent raising of that little image of God in the ways of righteousness. While the public sphere, in which we must unfortunately spend more and more of our limited time in order to pay tribute to the usurious "powers", is merely temporal and passing; unfortunate it is that it even exists.

It should come as no surprise then that these "powers" should spend so much time and money telling us that true fulfillment, meaning and self-worth is found in this second sphere. Indeed, the unfortunate fact was that the forces of industrialization and unrestrained capitalism tore man from the first sphere into the second, trading the family store/workshop/farm for the factory and office, and not that biology and social norms briefly and slightly hampered the effort to spread this evil to woman as well. The truth being that it was these "powers", such as the Rockefellers, who bankrolled and lobbied the research and social and legal changes required to make contraception a "normal" part of modern life.

It is a shame then, perhaps one of the most shameful of all things shameful, that so many women have become convinced that it was them who were dealt the raw end of the deal, when they were given the chance to remain in the only sphere that actually matters. Man is shamed for imagining that what he did was anything more important than selling himself for the necessities of his family's subsistence and not recognizing it was otherwise mere foolishness. Worse still is that man bought these lies of the "powers", these lies that made him a slave but told him he was a king, and then sold them to his wife and daughters. So, instead of man seeking to detangle himself from so much involvement in the second sphere, he pulls woman from the first sphere into the second, in order to make her "equal", meaning having the same function, and telling her not to have children in order to achieve it.

Careerism, that is, the belief that personal fulfillment can be found as a wage slave to the "powers", along with the belief that this second sphere is of more importance than the first, or perhaps even that it has any real importance at all, are lies straight from the mouth of Hades. Lies that send the husband to one office, the wife to another and the child or two, if any should accidentally exist, to some training facility to be raised in the ways, traditions and empty contrived soul-killing culture of the "powers."

In the end their state is lamentable, those who never know enough to regret what it was they could have had; a dinner table full of children, accompanied with a loving spouse and a prayer. And how much more lamentable still it is for those who, when they are old and near death and some shred of soul still exists, are filled to the brim and beyond with regret and grief. Regret over the children they hardly saw, the children they never bore, the spouse they hardly knew and the life they never had. A beautiful little life, difficult as it might have been, but a life providing a spiritual respite from the over-planned, whitewashed and sterile nihilist ugliness of the forces of modernity, which are the forces of the "powers" that promise the world but give only fleeting and meaningless pleasures and sorrow that knows no end.


http://pactum-serva.blogspot.com/

 

[QuantaCura]

If I were to offer a drug that caused a perfectly healthy and functioning biological system to malfunction and become completely ineffective we'd probably all label it as poison--and yet, that is what women are pumping their bodies with everyday. Yeah, that's real great for women...