Contraception

[TheFathersDaughter]

I think you've touched on something very important!

I know quite a few people who, despite having tubes tied or a vasectomy, got pregnant anyway. I guess if God wants to make a pregnancy happen, it will!

You explained it way better than I did. Thank you.

 

[NyssaTheHobbit]

I've actually started to regret using BC for so long, because now I want more kids and I'm in my 30s. Sometimes I wish we had started right away, despite my medical issues (which started the use of ABC in the first place). Then I discover that it's possible for the Pill to cause an abortion....Nobody seems to know if it does or not, but it's possible. The mini-pill definitely does because of its lower doses of estrogen. But because it happens "before implantation," it's not medically considered a "pregnancy" or an "abortion."

BTW, my priest tells me that the Orthodox church is not against birth control, just abortion. Of course, I find in Orthodox books statements that various jurisdictions have spoken against it. Thomas Hopko's series on the Orthodox faith addresses the issue; it says that birth control is allowed, but not if you're doing it selfishly. It can be done for economic reasons; it can be done for health reasons; it can be done to space the children; it is not to be done because you don't want children or because you want to travel/live in luxury/etc. Children are to be accepted as a gift, not treated as a burden.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I've actually started to regret using BC for so long, because now I want more kids and I'm in my 30s. Sometimes I wish we had started right away, despite my medical issues (which started the use of ABC in the first place). Then I discover that it's possible for the Pill to cause an abortion....Nobody seems to know if it does or not, but it's possible. The mini-pill definitely does because of its lower doses of estrogen. But because it happens "before implantation," it's not medically considered a "pregnancy" or an "abortion."

BTW, my priest tells me that the Orthodox church is not against birth control, just abortion. Of course, I find in Orthodox books statements that various jurisdictions have spoken against it. Thomas Hopko's series on the Orthodox faith addresses the issue; it says that birth control is allowed, but not if you're doing it selfishly. It can be done for economic reasons; it can be done for health reasons; it can be done to space the children; it is not to be done because you don't want children or because you want to travel/live in luxury/etc. Children are to be accepted as a gift, not treated as a burden.

I'm very sorry to hear about the problems you're having getting pregnant. I know that that is a very great burden.


I also believe you are VERY right about children being accepted as a gift from God, and not treated as a burden. But that doesn't mean that we should be irresponsible and have as many kids as we possibly can.

To me, it boils down to this: If you have children, love them, discipline them, care for them and raise them to know the Lord and what is right and wrong.

 

[Lotar]

Don't bet on it!

Talk to me 20 years from now - when you're basically my age - and you'll be singing a different tune!

Unless your wife goes through early menopause, which is very unlikely as long as you keep having babies, you'll likely be having kids well into your 50s.

On the other hand, I'd venture a guess that after 2-3 kids, you and/or your wife will see this whole "anti-contraception" thing VERY differently!

Have you tried having children in your 40s?

Just because a woman may not have hit menopause does not mean that she will continue to concieve and carry children to term. Most women experience a continued and steep drop in fertility around 35. Viable eggs become increasingly rare as they age.

Now, if we do continue to have many children through our 40s, I will still consider it to be a blessing. It's not like it is a big deal, since by that point, the oldest are leaving the nest while the new ones are born, and I will be making more money at that point then I will before then.

I will not see it differently because it is an issue of morality. Just like I will not change how I view abortion, even if it because expedient at some point.

 

[Lotar]

I also believe you are VERY right about children being accepted as a gift from God, and not treated as a burden. But that doesn't mean that we should be irresponsible and have as many kids as we possibly can.

1. Not using birth control is not the same as having as many children as you possibly can. That is usually only achieved by not breast feeding and intentionally trying to get pregnant.

2. It can never be irresponsible to follow God's commandments and/or to willingly accept His blessings.

3. Your two statements are contradict each other. If one is to see children as a blessing from God and not a burden, then they cannot turn around and say that they must be limited because they are a burden (financial or otherwise).

The truth is that children are a burden, just as they are a blessing. Christian life is not to be easy, in the sense of living for one's own pleasure, but it is meant to be a struggle against our own selfish passions. With the blessing of sex comes the responsibilities of marriage and children, which are blessings in themselves, but also truly burdens. They are conduits that lead to our salvation, as they force us to look outwards and put others above ourselves.

The contraceptive mindset is so horrible because it is fed most often by the desire for mammon and/or leasure. Children are seen as burdens to be avoided, and perhaps later accepted in small doses. This is why abortion quickly comes to the forefront, as pregnancy becomes a tragic disruption of planning. It also destroys the institution of the extended family, along with the support and traditions provided by it. It is self perpetuating, as cultural expectations of lifestyles change, raising the money and space children are believed to require. It keeps mothers at work, instead of at home raising the children. It is destroying family life, and the traditional morality supported by it. It is in large part the reason why, apart from subsaharan Africa, the world's Christian population is on the verge of a freefall.

 

[tulc]

The contraceptive mindset is so horrible because it is fed most often by the desire for mammon and/or leasure.

...wait...did you just say Mrs.tulc and I are horrible people?
tulc(never thought he was horrible, and KNEW Mrs.tulc isn't)

 

[Jedi]

Your two statements are contradict each other. If one is to see children as a blessing from God and not a burden, then they cannot turn around and say that they must be limited because they are a burden (financial or otherwise).

Not true. A simple lesson in economics falsifies this idea: diminishing returns. When I first open a pizza box and eat a slice of pizza, that slice tastes really good. However, by the time I get to the 30th slice of pizza, do I think of it as a blessing? Not at all. In fact, it would be a burden to have to eat it, even though it’s the same thing as the first piece I had, which was very enjoyable. It’s because of this principle that buffets can function – people don’t keep eating to their detriment (and if they do, everyone realizes it’s a serious problem that ought to be remedied).

This principle applies just the same with children. Having one isn’t nearly as much of a burden as having 8, 20, or 30+ kids. There’s just no reason to live recklessly. God never guaranteed to cover us in living irresponsibly.

The contraceptive mindset is so horrible because it is fed most often by the desire for mammon and/or leasure[sic].

Since when did leisure become inherently bad; something to be avoided? And no, it’s not mammon to be prudent with your resources. There’s absolutely no reason to spread yourself too thin, like butter scraped over too much bread, by refusing to take precautions from getting pregnant one too many times. This is especially true when you can’t even provide a scrap of evidence indicating procreation as a necessary purpose of all sexual activity.

Children are seen as burdens to be avoided

Straw man. Children are seen as good given the right context: timing, available resources to provide for them, willingness, health conditions, etc.

This is why abortion quickly comes to the forefront, as pregnancy becomes a tragic disruption of planning.

Abortion is an entirely different issue. One that shouldn’t be tossed in here to muddy the waters. Suffice it to say that advocates of contraceptives are typically not advocates of abortion as a means of birth control.

It also destroys the institution of the extended family

No it doesn’t. People still have kids – they just have control over how many they have without sacrificing intimacy with their spouse.

It is self perpetuating, as cultural expectations of lifestyles change, raising the money and space children are believed to require.

This is really nothing more than a straw man, supposing all who refrain from living recklessly in their sex life do so because they want to pamper themselves with material things. This does not take into account those who genuinely can’t afford to keep risking producing children. And what if they can? Why should people be obligated to risk having children against their wills?

It keeps mothers at work, instead of at home raising the children.

No, contraceptives allow mothers to work instead of having to stay at home with 6-10 kids all day. There is nothing that forces a woman to go to work if she uses contraceptives. Again, nice try.

It is destroying family life, and the traditional morality supported by it.

Haha, WHAT?! How? How are people’s ethics and moral philosophies destroyed by family planning? On the contrary, it’s people like you who are screwing over 3rd world countries, insisting they reject contraceptives when that’s the very thing that can practically and effectively lift the weight overpopulation is pressing on them. You point the finger of guilt based on ignorant piety with no theological or philosophical backing for your claims. “Destroying family life?” On the contrary, contraceptives improve it by allowing families to begin at the proper time instead of under stress and flourish without unnecessarily adding stress.

It is in large part the reason why, apart from subsaharan Africa, the world's Christian population is on the verge of a freefall.

Blaming this on contraceptives is ridiculous. The church no longer holds its sway over entire countries as it did hundreds of years ago, so of course people are going to be found more and more outside of it. You’re fooling yourself if you think it’s only Christians who use birth control and are thus reducing their population solely through that method, which is the only way your argument here would work.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

1. Not using birth control is not the same as having as many children as you possibly can. That is usually only achieved by not breast feeding and intentionally trying to get pregnant.
You're right.
And that's why it is horribly hypocritical to condemn certain forms of birth control (that are not abortives) and condone others.

2. It can never be irresponsible to follow God's commandments and/or to willingly accept His blessings.
Right again.
Fortunately (or unfortunately, as you may see it) God did not give us any direct command about birth control and contraception.
To say that He did is to read into Scripture things that simply are NOT there.

3. Your two statements are contradict each other. If one is to see children as a blessing from God and not a burden, then they cannot turn around and say that they must be limited because they are a burden (financial or otherwise).
Wrong.
-You are a person with no children.
-You are a person married to a very young woman.
You are NOT in a position to make those kinds of judgments and condemnations!

If my wife were to - at her age - become pregnant, it would be a very high risk pregnancy. It would be stupid and irresponsible of is to take that risk.

The truth is that children are a burden, just as they are a blessing.
Do you say that, based on your experience as a dad?

Christian life is not to be easy, in the sense of living for one's own pleasure, but it is meant to be a struggle against our own selfish passions.
And what does this have to do with birth control?

With the blessing of sex comes the responsibilities of marriage and children, which are blessings in themselves, but also truly burdens.
Marital sex is NOT for the sole purpose of procreation.

They are conduits that lead to our salvation, as they force us to look outwards and put others above ourselves.
Huhhhh?

The contraceptive mindset is so horrible because it is fed most often by the desire for mammon and/or leasure.
It CAN be - but to make that broad-brush condemnation is asinine.
The decision my wife & I came to, to not have more children, was NOT based on a desire for mammon and/or leasure [sic]. How can you make blind judgments like that?

Children are seen as burdens to be avoided, and perhaps later accepted in small doses. This is why abortion quickly comes to the forefront, as pregnancy becomes a tragic disruption of planning. It also destroys the institution of the extended family, along with the support and traditions provided by it. It is self perpetuating, as cultural expectations of lifestyles change, raising the money and space children are believed to require. It keeps mothers at work, instead of at home raising the children. It is destroying family life, and the traditional morality supported by it. It is in large part the reason why, apart from subsaharan Africa, the world's Christian population is on the verge of a freefall.
Wow. Talk about catastrophising - and making universal statements that simply do NOT apply!

So the world is going to hell in a handbasket because some people decide to not have any more children? That's silly!

Your zeal for judging and condemning others - in regards to contraception - is lacking both Biblical support AND real-life experience. You would do well to listen & learn, rather than judge and condemn.

 

[Jedi]

Let's make things simple for you, Lotar. I'm just going to ask you one question here. On what basis do you stand from which to claim that procreation is a necessary purpose of all sexual activity?

Let's just start there. No one from your side of the fence has ever come close to giving such an adequate basis, whether from scripture, theology, or philosophy. Curious, then, how you can be so adamantly against contraceptives and family planning.

 

[Fantine]

Lotar said: The truth is that children are a burden, just as they are a blessing. Christian life is not to be easy, in the sense of living for one's own pleasure, but it is meant to be a struggle against our own selfish passions. With the blessing of sex comes the responsibilities of marriage and children, which are blessings in themselves, but also truly burdens. They are conduits that lead to our salvation, as they force us to look outwards and put others above ourselves.

Lotar, that is a beautiful and profound statement, and I wanted people to be able to read it on its own and appreciate all the wisdom within.

But it was buried in a barrage of criticism of the world with its contraceptive mentality and couples who are selfish and hedonistic, so its wisdom was almost lost.

Which only goes to show that a wise, prayerful statement goes a lot further in touching people's hearts than criticism of hedonistic couples and contraceptive continents....

 

[Jedi]

But it was buried in a barrage of criticism of the world with its contraceptive mentality and couples who are selfish and hedonistic, so its wisdom was almost lost.

Watch yourself, friend. Do not be so quick to condemn others as "selfish" or "hedonistic" merely because they disagree with you concerning the matter of contraceptives.

It has been those who condemn contraceptives that have miserably failed to support their case or answer the objections given. Ignorant piety does not amuse me and that is what those who condemn contraceptives come across as. If you beg to differ, then please, by all means, provide evidence to the contrary.

And so I continue to wait.

 

[Fantine]

The passage you quoted from me paraphrased Lotar's comments about contraception, which almost obscured some very wise words he wrote about children being a blessing and a burden.

I don't take any credit for them one way or the other (although I wish I could have taken credit for the words about children being a blessing and a burden, because they were absolutely beautiful.)

 

[Lotar]

In Orthodoxy we often say that to sin is to "miss the mark", so to speak. God did not give us an arbitrary set of rules for us to follow, devoid of any reasoning why they are wrong. God gave His creation purposes, and we sin when we take His creation and attempt to use it outside or devoid of these purposes.

So, fornication and adultery are not wrong simply because God said so, but because sex is being used outside of the purpose of bonding one to one's spouse.

Procreation is one of the two God prescribed purposes of sex. Its necessity is not only obvious, but is also pointed to in Scripture in various places, such as the commandment to multiply in Genesis. It is pointed to with the first act of sex, when Adam knew Eve and they conceived their first son.

It is made clear throughout Scripture that children are a blessing and gift from God. Blessed is the man who's quiver is full of them, to paraphrase one passage. The book of Tobit declares that no earthly treasure is equal to children.

In reality, the two purposes of sex, bonding and procreation are very much linked. The husband and wife become one flesh, and the physical manifestation of this mystery is found in the child that is brought forth.

Condemnation of various types of modern contraception can be linked to Scripture:
Barrier devises are a form of Onanism. (Onan's sin was clearly both not providing his brother with an heir and spilling his seed on the ground).
Surgical methods are forms of castration, which is condemned in multiple passages.
Pharmaceutical methods are both forms of artificial sterility (castration) and abortion (murder).

Not only this, but the use of contraception is also "calling good evil and evil good", in that it is a rejection of God's blessings, and seeing them as undesirable at best. The immorality of this mindset is furthered by the fact the reasoning behind it is most often monetary and a desire for more idle time.

 

[Lotar]

Your zeal for judging and condemning others - in regards to contraception - is lacking both Biblical support AND real-life experience. You would do well to listen & learn, rather than judge and condemn.

Biblical support is clearly there for those who do not turn a blind eye towards it.

"Real life"? Why should I learn from you, a person who has a small family, and thus no "real life" experience to speak of either? I have learned from very pious families that do follow God's commandments in this regard, and thusly do have real life experience.

I have not judged or condemned anyone, only actions.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Biblical support is clearly there for those who do not turn a blind eye towards it.

"Real life"? Why should I learn from you, a person who has a small family, and thus no "real life" experience to speak of either? I have learned from very pious families that do follow God's commandments in this regard, and thusly do have real life experience.

I have not judged or condemned anyone, only actions.

First of all, you HAVE judged and condemned me as SINNING because my wife & I have chosen to not have more kids.

Second, I see that you - once again - fail to give ANY Scripture to back up your claim that contraception (except for the type you practice) is wrong.

Third, you ARE speaking where God has NOT spoken. Period.

 

[Lotar]

First of all, you HAVE judged and condemned me as SINNING because my wife & I have chosen to not have more kids.

Second, I see that you - once again - fail to give ANY Scripture to back up your claim that contraception (except for the type you practice) is wrong.

Third, you ARE speaking where God has NOT spoken. Period.

1. I'm sure you'd say I was sinning if I announced that I was a practicing homosexual. You said what you did was not a sin, and I convicted you. Deal with it.

2. I gave Scripture.

3. If that helps you sleep at night...

 

[ParsonJefferson]

In Orthodoxy we often say that to sin is to "miss the mark", so to speak. God did not give us an arbitrary set of rules for us to follow, devoid of any reasoning why they are wrong. God gave His creation purposes, and we sin when we take His creation and attempt to use it outside or devoid of these purposes.

So, fornication and adultery are not wrong simply because God said so, but because sex is being used outside of the purpose of bonding one to one's spouse.

Procreation is one of the two God prescribed purposes of sex. Its necessity is not only obvious, but is also pointed to in Scripture in various places, such as the commandment to multiply in Genesis. It is pointed to with the first act of sex, when Adam knew Eve and they conceived their first son.

It is made clear throughout Scripture that children are a blessing and gift from God. Blessed is the man who's quiver is full of them, to paraphrase one passage. The book of Tobit declares that no earthly treasure is equal to children.

In reality, the two purposes of sex, bonding and procreation are very much linked. The husband and wife become one flesh, and the physical manifestation of this mystery is found in the child that is brought forth.

Condemnation of various types of modern contraception can be linked to Scripture:
Barrier devises are a form of Onanism. (Onan's sin was clearly both not providing his brother with an heir and spilling his seed on the ground).
Surgical methods are forms of castration, which is condemned in multiple passages.
Pharmaceutical methods are both forms of artificial sterility (castration) and abortion (murder).

Not only this, but the use of contraception is also "calling good evil and evil good", in that it is a rejection of God's blessings, and seeing them as undesirable at best. The immorality of this mindset is furthered by the fact the reasoning behind it is most often monetary and a desire for more idle time.

There's just no way I can leave some of your glaring errors alone on this one!

Barrier devises are a form of Onanism. (Onan's sin was clearly both not providing his brother with an heir and spilling his seed on the ground).

What a load! Talk about reading into Scripture what is NOT there! Onan's sin was refusing to provide his brother an heir. PERIOD. Genesis 38 says NOTHING about "spilling his sperm on the ground" as being a sin. That was used simply as an explanation of the fact that Onan refused to provide his brother with an heir.

Onan's sin was NOT masturbation - as wrongly taught by some churches.
Onan's sin was NOT contraception - as wrongly taught by some churches.
Onan's sin was refusing to provide his brother an heir and, thus, refusing to provide his brother's wife with somebody to take care of her in her old age.

Surgical methods are forms of castration, which is condemned in multiple passages.

And those passages of Scripture would be...?

Not only this, but the use of contraception is also "calling good evil and evil good", in that it is a rejection of God's blessings, and seeing them as undesirable at best.

Only if you take it upon yourself to speak where God does NOT speak.

The immorality of this mindset is furthered by the fact the reasoning behind it is most often monetary and a desire for more idle time.

That's one of the most snotty, stupid and WRONG statements I've ever read!

- What about the desire of a husband to have his wife LIVE? Is that a noble enough reason for you?
- What about a couple's desire to not run a high risk of children with birth-defects (a problem that grows exponentially after you're 40). Is that a noble enough reason for you?
- What about a couple deciding to NOT have more children than they can provide for? Is that a noble enough reason for you?



Basically Lotar, if you want to have 25 kids, knock yourself out! But stop trying to speak for God, and say what God never said. And stop thinking that it's your job to crawl into every married couple's bed and tell them what they can and cannot do. That's insane.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

1. I'm sure you'd say I was sinning if I announced that I was a practicing homosexual. You said what you did was not a sin, and I convicted you. Deal with it.
So... using contraception is the same as being a practicing homosexual? In what world would THAT be true?
You're simply trying to explain away your own judgmental, condemning and haughty attitude.

2. I gave Scripture.
That have NOTHING to do with contraception.

3. If that helps you sleep at night...
And when confronted with speaking where God does NOT speak, all you can do is say, "if that helps you sleep at night..."

Well, yes, it DOES help me sleep to know that God has NOT condemned birth control - even the kind you use - and YOU are NOT God!

Thanks anyway.

 

[Lotar]

There's just no way I can leave some of your glaring errors alone on this one!

What a load! Talk about reading into Scripture what is NOT there! Onan's sin was refusing to provide his brother an heir. PERIOD. Genesis 38 says NOTHING about "spilling his sperm on the ground" as being a sin. That was used simply as an explanation of the fact that Onan refused to provide his brother with an heir.

Onan's sin was NOT masturbation - as wrongly taught by some churches.
Onan's sin was NOT contraception - as wrongly taught by some churches.
Onan's sin was refusing to provide his brother an heir and, thus, refusing to provide his brother's wife with somebody to take care of her in her old age.

So says you, and I really see no reason at all to believe you over how this passage has been interpretted for centuries. This reminds me of how some Protestants also claim that the Bible doesn't really condemn homosexuality.

Only if you take it upon yourself to speak where God does NOT speak.

God has spoken my friend.

- What about the desire of a husband to have his wife LIVE? Is that a noble enough reason for you?

Rarely the case. Even when this is the case, trusting God is the nobler path. My wife's godmother was told another child would kill her two children ago.

- What about a couple's desire to not run a high risk of children with birth-defects (a problem that grows exponentially after you're 40). Is that a noble enough reason for you?

No. Chances are still small, and children with birth-defects are still blessings.

- What about a couple deciding to NOT have more children than they can provide for? Is that a noble enough reason for you?

You mean people like Americans who can afford cars, computers, internet access, and so on. People who are in the richest 20% of the world's population, with food so abundant that even the poorest are fat.

Basically Lotar, if you want to have 25 kids, knock yourself out! But stop trying to speak for God, and say what God never said. And stop thinking that it's your job to crawl into every married couple's bed and tell them what they can and cannot do. That's insane.

I haven't been in anyone's bed, and I wouldn't have even known your own practices if you hadn't felt that it was necessary to tell me.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

So says you, and I really see no reason at all to believe you over how this passage has been interpretted for centuries. This reminds me of how some Protestants also claim that the Bible doesn't really condemn homosexuality.
Non sequitur, and attempted diversion.

You are WRONG when you say that Genesis 38 has been interpreted as such "for centuries". You would be RIGHT if you had said, "SOME PEOPLE have interpreted it as such for centuries."

Was Onan the only person to EVER "spill his sperm on the ground"? If not, why isn't everybody slain for that very thing?


God has spoken my friend.
Yes, God HAS spoken.
Unfortunately for you, God has NOT spoken what YOU are speaking.
YOU are claiming to speak for God where He simply has not spoken. I would be VERY nervous about doing that!


Rarely the case. Even when this is the case, trusting God is the nobler path. My wife's godmother was told another child would kill her two children ago.
Another non sequitur.
It would be nothing short of STUPID for my wife & me to have another child at this point in our lives. You are simply too young, too naive, and too arrogant to understand that.

But you will some day...


No. Chances are still small, and children with birth-defects are still blessings.
Yet another sanctimonious non sequitur.



You mean people like Americans who can afford cars, computers, internet access, and so on. People who are in the richest 20% of the world's population, with food so abundant that even the poorest are fat.
Wrong again.
And this is completely and totally irrelevant anyway.

Talk to me in 20 years, when you have 25 kids and your grocery bill is running you about $3,000 per month.


I haven't been in anyone's bed, and I wouldn't have even known your own practices if you hadn't felt that it was necessary to tell me.
Yes, you ARE getting into married couple's beds and telling them what they can and cannot do!

You have a LOT to learn!