Contraception

[EnemyPartyII]

because God is ultimately the one who is in control and remember, Jesus is returning and that is what we need to be focusing on, his return, not perfecting this world because it will never be perfect, we can't make it perfect and that's the point, that is why Christ came the first time.

But I'm curious to know why don't you think we need to justify ourselves and what we do? After all, this world and this life is only on loan to us.

Well, I believe in an after life, and God and Christian salvation, and all of that...

But saying "taking care of the World doesn't matter, cos we'll all be dead one day" seems an ultimate shirking of responsibility... True... one day there will be no more humans, and the world's state won't matter... but it could be a REALLY long wait... and I would VERY much like for my children, grandchildren and great grand children to grow up in an environment with, you know, trees... rather than dustbowls.

because God is ultimately the one who is in control and remember

Yes... God IS in control... but again, can you give me an example in recent history where God has cleaned up after a human error? You seem to think God will take care of our food, water and living space requirements and we can just trample roughshod across creation... what are you basing this on?

Like I said... I can think of 10 million examples where God could have intervened to fix mankind's folly, and he chose not to. What makes you so sure he will fix our problems for us THIS time?

oh, okay. So a woman is only a little pregnant at that stage in the game.

Nope. A woman is not pregnant AT ALL at this stage of the game.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, I believe in an after life, and God and Christian salvation, and all of that...

But saying "taking care of the World doesn't matter, cos we'll all be dead one day" seems an ultimate shirking of responsibility... True... one day there will be no more humans, and the world's state won't matter... but it could be a REALLY long wait... and I would VERY much like for my children, grandchildren and great grand children to grow up in an environment with, you know, trees... rather than dustbowls.Yes... God IS in control... but again, can you give me an example in recent history where God has cleaned up after a human error? You seem to think God will take care of our food, water and living space requirements and we can just trample roughshod across creation... what are you basing this on?

As a Christian i look forward to the world that is to come, not the world as it is. It is us who messed up the world in the first place.

We could, through charity, change the world ourselves and we do have the power ourselves to end much of the human suffering if we choose to do that. ABC, abortions, condoms, ect is not the answer or the power we have to end human suffering. Mother Theresa showed us the way. Imagine if we all did as she did... the world would change before the next sunrise.

Like I said... I can think of 10 million examples where God could have intervened to fix mankind's folly, and he chose not to. What makes you so sure he will fix our problems for us THIS time?Nope. A woman is not pregnant AT ALL at this stage of the game.

Jesus is coming again and there will be a new heaven and earth created and that is when God will "fix" our mess that we made ultimately and then there will be no more pain and suffering.

We also will find ourselves giving an account for why we let things become what they were. God has opened our eyes many times to the suffering that goes on and we do nothing. There are things we surly can do to lessens human suffering but we choose not to do them.

ABC has not helped alleviate suffering. It is not feeding the hungry.

I think we need to come to deal with this reality. It has only worsened the situation and has made the lives of those who use it more selfish, which in turns allows us to turn a blind eye to those who truly are in need. Our needing a new SUV is not a need, but a want... but we think it is a need, so we contracept and ignore the poor. It is us who God has blessed, who God calls on to help those who suffer. God does this, this way to bring man together in love by helping one another.

Understand that i am also in this category. I think my troubles are just the end of the world but then I reflect on what true suffering really is and I ain't it.

We all tend to see things through our own prism. In reality, as Mother Theresa said, we are truly the poor becuase we spiritually live in poverty.

and Yes, a woman who has conceived in her fallopian tube is pregnant at that stage and if she weren't altering her body, her baby that does exist at this point would implant itself in her womb and ultimately be born into the world.

that is what a spontaneous abortion is, when the body rejects the baby. In the case with ABC, it's not random or spontaneous but intentional.

 

[Fantine]

Enemy Party II said: Yes... God IS in control... but again, can you give me an example in recent history where God has cleaned up after a human error? You seem to think God will take care of our food, water and living space requirements and we can just trample roughshod across creation... what are you basing this on?

There are some who might say that God cleans up after human error by giving us knowledge and courage and compassion.

And of course that raises ethical questions.

Is it ethical for us to divert so much of our corn supply to ethanol because we Americans who eat too much and walk too little want gas for our cars? Because a diminished corn supply makes the price of corn rise, Africans who walk too much and eat too little may not be able to afford the increased cost....

I find it interesting that religious people are always turning to sex as the hot button issue. Sometimes I wonder whether the outcry against contraception is more a cry of pain against women becoming too independent and educated and competitive and an attempt to put them back in the kitchen where it is assumed they belong.

I see our diverting corn to fuel when hungry people in other parts of the world need corn as a moral issue, too--one which many independent, educated, and competitive women scientists are probably working hard to find a solution to (increased yields...)

I think that religious people gain much more credibility when they stop focusing so much on sexual issues and expand their worldview.

 

[IamAdopted]

Cite where he gave us dominion over procreation, IAA.

I eagerly await.

What he said was to go and fill the earth.

Don't you think ABC greatly contradicts that?

And dominion is not a blank check to go out and write ourselves what ever we want. it is not a license to abuse God's creation, and in this matter that would be abusing human fertility by feeding it drugs and other means that are intended to destroy it.

I want to know where God gave any of us permission to destroy our own fertility that he saw fit to give to us?

Do you have an answer for this or not?

We are stewarts of God's gifts. Everything is His and never ours.

We care for what he has given us through his generosity.

Where on earth do you get that he gave us fertility just so it can be destroyed? How is destroying fertility, caring for it in any way?

Do you know if any other way that babies are born without the man and woman consenting to come together as one flesh to procreate? God gave this over to man and woman to procreate. You have so much to say and talk circles around yourself. I am sorry for that. No where do we see that there is anything written about contraception. Now you say that is is God that is in control and that obstaining from sex is the only way. Scripture does show us that a man and wife have a duty to one another and the only reason for abstaining from this duty is prayer. Not during the cycle. You said that God opens and closes the womb. So now if this is what you believe and what you practice then you would not obstain from intimacy during the time of ovalization because God would be in control and not you. He would be the one that opened or closed the womb and not you deciding to not come together during this time. So here we see that what you are saying is double standards. If it is indeed sin to use any method of birth control then you my friend are just as guilty as the rest no matter what method is used. You take it out of Gods hands the minute you choose not to come together at the time of your cycle.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

As a Christian i look forward to the world that is to come, not the world as it is. It is us who messed up the world in the first place.

We could, through charity, change the world ourselves and we do have the power ourselves to end much of the human suffering if we choose to do that. ABC, abortions, condoms, ect is not the answer or the power we have to end human suffering. Mother Theresa showed us the way. Imagine if we all did as she did... the world would change before the next sunrise.

Um yeah... well thankfully, some of us prefer to deal in reality, rather than wonderously fanciful notions of "if only"

It is our responsibility to maintain the World for future generations. Yes, God is coming, but we don't know when. So trashing the world now is going to make life rough for the next hundred, thousand, or million generations that have to live here before Christ's return.

Jesus is coming again and there will be a new heaven and earth created and that is when God will "fix" our mess that we made ultimately and then there will be no more pain and suffering.

Yeah, great. So... what about the meantime?

ABC has not helped alleviate suffering. It is not feeding the hungry.

HUGELY DISAGREE! True, a confdom never fed anyone... however, if a family has the means to comfortably support two children, and ABC means that they don't have 15... well thats sure reduced hunger right there...

I think we need to come to deal with this reality. It has only worsened the situation and has made the lives of those who use it more selfish, which in turns allows us to turn a blind eye to those who truly are in need. Our needing a new SUV is not a need, but a want... but we think it is a need, so we contracept and ignore the poor. It is us who God has blessed, who God calls on to help those who suffer. God does this, this way to bring man together in love by helping one another.

I am so utterly not talking about people who can even DREAM iof buying an SUV... I'm talking about the BILLIONS of people in poverty RIGHT NOW... REAL poverty... with no medical care of clean water, who simply cannot support more children. For THEM contraception is a blessing.

and Yes, a woman who has conceived in her fallopian tube is pregnant at that stage

No she isn't.

and if she weren't altering her body, her baby that does exist at this point would implant itself in her womb and ultimately be born into the world.

and if every sperm and every egg ended up getting together, they could all be people too...

Lets please stop confusing potentialities with actualities?

You ARE NOT PREGNANT until implantation occurs.

 

[Benedicta00]

Um yeah... well thankfully, some of us prefer to deal in reality, rather than wonderously fanciful notions of "if only"

It is our responsibility to maintain the World for future generations. Yes, God is coming, but we don't know when. So trashing the world now is going to make life rough for the next hundred, thousand, or million generations that have to live here before Christ's return.Yeah, great. So... what about the meantime?HUGELY DISAGREE! True, a confdom never fed anyone... however, if a family has the means to comfortably support two children, and ABC means that they don't have 15... well thats sure reduced hunger right there...I am so utterly not talking about people who can even DREAM iof buying an SUV... I'm talking about the BILLIONS of people in poverty RIGHT NOW... REAL poverty... with no medical care of clean water, who simply cannot support more children. For THEM contraception is a blessing.No she isn't.and if every sperm and every egg ended up getting together, they could all be people too...

Lets please stop confusing potentialities with actualities?

You ARE NOT PREGNANT until implantation occurs.

I really disagree with your out look on life so i see no point in going on about this. We have two drastically different world views. And your wold view is why you see noting wrong with ABC and mine is why i see a lot wrong with it. i think we need to just leave it at that.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

What is God's way of not conceiving children... what is that way Jefferson?

Is it drugs, surgeries? if so, then where do you get this notion from?

I notice that you're NOT able to give me ANYTHING from the BIBLE to support your argument.


Thank you!

 

[Benedicta00]

Do you know if any other way that babies are born without the man and woman consenting to come together as one flesh to procreate? God gave this over to man and woman to procreate. You have so much to say and talk circles around yourself. I am sorry for that. No where do we see that there is anything written about contraception. Now you say that is is God that is in control and that obstaining from sex is the only way. Scripture does show us that a man and wife have a duty to one another and the only reason for abstaining from this duty is prayer. Not during the cycle. You said that God opens and closes the womb. So now if this is what you believe and what you practice then you would not obstain from intimacy during the time of ovalization because God would be in control and not you. He would be the one that opened or closed the womb and not you deciding to not come together during this time. So here we see that what you are saying is double standards. If it is indeed sin to use any method of birth control then you my friend are just as guilty as the rest no matter what method is used. You take it out of Gods hands the minute you choose not to come together at the time of your cycle.

all you have to do is just tell me what authority gives you the go ahead to take it upon yourself and destroy fertility? Who said that was okay?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I have admitted it Jefferson.

But so what?

We are not discussing intent of why some has to avoid pregnancy, we are discussing the means we use only.

The question is where do you get that it is okay to treat fertility as if it is a illness that needs drugs or surgeries?

It's a matter of choice.

Now, please answer MY question that you've repeatedly refused (or not been able) to answer: Please provide Book, Chapter and Verse - FROM THE BIBLE - that supports YOUR idea that all forms of Birth Control, except yours, are wrong.

I'm awaiting your response - FROM THE BIBLE.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

personally... I'd like to see everyone drop abortion and contraception as issues for a couple of years, and direct their energies towards something that is a REAL problem, like FAS, or world hunger, or climate change, or just about ANYTHING... but I guess its more fun to have a sanctimonious regard or, worse, excuse to bully, people you regard as less than you.

 

[Benedicta00]

I notice that you're NOT able to give me ANYTHING from the BIBLE to support your argument.


Thank you!

what argument is that? I really have made one, I'm only asking where you get the permission from to use ABC and sterilization to destroy fertilirty?

I believe in NFP becuase it's using nature and the way God made the body and it's not abusing or altering it by feeding it chemicals. I'm not changing anything, I'm leaving working organs, in working condition.

have you?

 

[Benedicta00]

It's a matter of choice.

Now, please answer MY question that you've repeatedly refused (or not been able) to answer: Please provide Book, Chapter and Verse - FROM THE BIBLE - that supports YOUR idea that all forms of Birth Control, except yours, are wrong.

I'm awaiting your response - FROM THE BIBLE.

Jefferson, There is none and we established that already and that is what has lead to my question... if you went back and traced my posts, you will see that.

The bible does not say one way or the other, so if the bible can not confirm or condemn the use of ABC, just what is the source of you thinking the method of ABC and surgeries are okay with God?

How do you know God is pleased with this?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Well, I can support my world view, I am sincerely interested to know how you support yours

 

[EnemyPartyII]

ABC leaves working organs in working condition. God made them in such a way that we could use ABC to effect them... are you saying he should have designed us so we couldn't?

 

[IamAdopted]

what argument is that? I really have made one, I'm only asking where you get the permission from to use ABC and sterilization to destroy fertilirty?

I believe in NFP becuase it's using nature and the way God made the body and it's not abusing or altering it by feeding it chemicals. I'm not changing anything, I'm leaving working organs, in working condition.

have you?

That is called naturalism. Our faith is in God and His written word not in naturalism. Sorry. How do you know He is not? Through the Holy Spirit Paul spoke though about the duty of wife and husband. So this we have a record of. To obstain is to be for prayer. Not so you won't get pregnant. So now how do you justify that you can obstain from the duty of a husband and wife relationship just so you do not get pregnant? How do you justify this?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

God is pleased for us to use any other artificial tool to make life more manageable. Why consider ABC to be any different?

 

[Benedicta00]

That is called naturalism. Our faith is in God and His written word not in naturalism. Sorry. How do you know He is not? Through the Holy Spirit Paul spoke though about the duty of wife and husband. So this we have a record of. To obstain is to be for prayer. Not so you won't get pregnant. So now how do you justify that you can obstain from the duty of a husband and wife relationship just so you do not get pregnant? How do you justify this?

It would be if i took God out the equation and was all about nature and seeing how i do not use any artificial BC for His sake and not for the sake of nature, I don't think I'm guilty of that any more than your are guilty of worshipping science by taking ABC.

So yet again I ask, who told you that God said it was okay to use ABC and to sterilize yourself as a form of BC?

If God wanted ABC and mutilation done on our organs that work- then why did he bother to make them work in the first place?

And why did he make a woman infertile half the month if he never wanted us to use nature to space children and wanted us to use chemicals and mutilation instead? DO you have an answer for this or not?

 

[Benedicta00]

God is pleased for us to use any other artificial tool to make life more manageable. Why consider ABC to be any different?

and what is the source that tells you that God is pleased?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Jefferson, There is none and we established that already and that is what has lead to my question... if you went back and traced my posts, you will see that.

The bible does not say one way or the other, so if the bible can not confirm or condemn the use of ABC, just what is the source of you thinking the method of ABC and surgeries are okay with God?

How do you know God is pleased with this?

That's EXACTLY RIGHT. The BIBLE does NOT say one way or the other!

So why does the Catholic Church? Why do I have Catholics accusing me of "Marital Sodomy"? Why are you making such a HUGE issue out of the fact that somebody uses a different form of birth control than you do?

That is EXACTLY what the point is! Thank you!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

and what is the source that tells you that God is pleased?

Well, since he saw fit to tell us not to eat any 4 legged birds we might come across (lev 11:23)... it seems fair that if he didn't want us to use any artificial assistance in life he might have mentioned that too...

I mean, whats more likely to come up? People using anything artificial, or 4 legged birds?