Contraception

[Benedicta00]

God, in what is euphemistically called His "permissive will," has handled these situations in the past with famine and disease.

Floods, tsunamis, hurricanes--the devastating weather-related tragedies which many link to global warming--and global warming is affected by overpopulation and overconsumption of natural resources.

The droughts and early frosts that can be another effect of global warming reduce crop yields, which contributes to hunger.

War, which is frequently waged for control over resources (some might even say this is the case in Iraq....)

Is it surprising that some people find man's way of controlling overpopulation preferable to God's permissive will unleashing destruction on an overpopulated world?

If you buy into that...

Some believe that we suffer these natural disasters as a chastisement for all the things mankind has done that offend Him.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

A couple who feels they should not conceive has not been my focus. I've said zero about that.

I'm simply asking, if you should not conceive, why is God's way not a good enough way to use?

Can you provide an answer or not?

I would like Book, Chapter and Verse - from the Bible - that says what "God's way" is, concerning contraception. I'd also like the same concerning what is NOT God's way!

 

[ParsonJefferson]

because one is in accord with God and his will and His design of the human being and the other contradicts that.

One puts the trust and authority into God's hands and the other puts it all into man's.

According to YOU.

But you are manipulating contraception and fertility just as much as the couple that gets a vasectomy. You just won't admit it!

 

[Benedicta00]

He also gave dominion over procreating. For He gave man dominion over all things on earth in Genesis. We do not walk by trying to obey Laws of what one sect describes as sin Bene. We walk in the righteousness of Christ. It is as simple as that.

Cite where he gave us dominion over procreation, IAA.

I eagerly await.

What he said was to go and fill the earth.

Don't you think ABC greatly contradicts that?

And dominion is not a blank check to go out and write ourselves what ever we want. it is not a license to abuse God's creation, and in this matter that would be abusing human fertility by feeding it drugs and other means that are intended to destroy it.

I want to know where God gave any of us permission to destroy our own fertility that he saw fit to give to us?

Do you have an answer for this or not?

We are stewarts of God's gifts. Everything is His and never ours.

We care for what he has given us through his generosity.

Where on earth do you get that he gave us fertility just so it can be destroyed? How is destroying fertility, caring for it in any way?

 

[Benedicta00]

I would like Book, Chapter and Verse - from the Bible - that says what "God's way" is, concerning contraception. I'd also like the same concerning what is NOT God's way!

What is God's way of not conceiving children... what is that way Jefferson?

Is it drugs, surgeries? if so, then where do you get this notion from?

 

[Fantine]

If you buy into that...

Some believe that we suffer these natural disasters as a chastisement for all the things mankind has done that offend Him.

I don't believe that God's permissive will allows famines and wars in Africa and tsunamis in Thailand to punish people in the industrialized world for practicing contraception.

Because, in the long run, those people in the industrialized nations will shed a few tears and write a few checks, but never experience the true force of what you are postulating is God's wrath.

 

[IamAdopted]

because one is in accord with God and his will and His design of the human being and the other contradicts that.

One puts the trust and authority into God's hands and the other puts it all into man's.

So obstaining from sex during your fertile times does not put it is mans hand? IT was not your choice not to have sex so you would not become pregnant? Please bene read what you are saying.

 

[Benedicta00]

According to YOU.

But you are manipulating contraception and fertility just as much as the couple that gets a vasectomy. You just won't admit it!

I have admitted it Jefferson.

But so what?

We are not discussing intent of why some has to avoid pregnancy, we are discussing the means we use only.

The question is where do you get that it is okay to treat fertility as if it is a illness that needs drugs or surgeries?

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't believe that God's permissive will allows famines and wars in Africa and tsunamis in Thailand to punish people in the industrialized world for practicing contraception.

Because, in the long run, those people in the industrialized nations will shed a few tears and write a few checks, but never experience the true force of what you are postulating is God's wrath.

I never said this is God's wrath. What i said was there are many theories out there and they are just that, theories.

 

[Benedicta00]

So obstaining from sex during your fertile times does not put it is mans hand? IT was not your choice not to have sex so you would not become pregnant? Please bene read what you are saying.

It puts it in both. Man works with God.

It is not abusing the human body. Just how would abstinence abuse fertility?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Yes... it can and often has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnemyPartyII
No, the Pill DOESN'T cause abortions.

Got any, you know... EVIDENCE to back up your assertion?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Over population? So that is why we need ABC? So we don't over populate God's world?

yes.

Don't you think God is capable enough to handle these issues? I'm curious to know why you feel you need to take the matter upon yourself?

God is, of course, capable of anything. Its whether or not he WILL... I can point to about 10 million examples off the top of my head where God chose to let humans look after a bad situation by themselves and where He didn't interfere directly.

Why can't we just trust God with everything including fertility and "over population"? Is there a reason why we can't just do that? Trust God?

Because God has demonstrated, time and again, that he DOESN'T make a habit of pulling our chestnuts out of the fire... Trust God all you like... but nowhere in any scripture I am aware of, does God say "don't worry about the consequences, I'll clean up your mess for you"

Indeed, if you can cite just ONE example from the past thousand years where God has miraculously fixed a man made catastrophe... I'll agree that we can expect God to take care of the overpopulation problem too

 

[Benedicta00]

Got any, you know... EVIDENCE to back up your assertion?

Yes, read the insert that comes with the pill, the shot, the implants.

Why does contraceptives contain hormones that will harden the lining of the uterus?

We do not conceived in the uterus, we conceive in the fallopian tube and the baby does not implant in the uterus for 72 hours after conception.

Why change the lining of the uterus? Because God's design is so powerful, chemicals can not match His powerful design.

The industry had to lessen the chemicals that prevent ovulation because they were killing women. Does that really sound like this is "of God"?

So now with a "low dose" pill, shot, implant, "the ring" what ever your poison may be, there has to be a back up mechanism to get that 99.9% effective rate and that backup plan is, the baby will not be able to implant in the uterus if conception occurs so the baby will be aborted from the women's body.

There is a risk still that you will conceive a child and the idea is to have your body reject the baby if that should happen. This is a hard true fact.

 

[Benedicta00]

yes.God is, of course, capable of anything. Its whether or not he WILL... I can point to about 10 million examples off the top of my head where God chose to let humans look after a bad situation by themselves and where He didn't interfere directly.Because God has demonstrated, time and again, that he DOESN'T make a habit of pulling our chestnuts out of the fire... Trust God all you like... but nowhere in any scripture I am aware of, does God say "don't worry about the consequences, I'll clean up your mess for you"

Indeed, if you can cite just ONE example from the past thousand years where God has miraculously fixed a man made catastrophe... I'll agree that we can expect God to take care of the overpopulation problem too

I personally believe the world can not get "over populated" but I realize ppl do think it can so this just goes on and on.

But thanks for at least giving a honest answer, you justify ABC and sterilization to curve overpopulation... is this correct?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Yes, read the insert that comes with the pill, the shot, the implants.

Why does contraceptives contain hormones that will harden the lining of the uterus?

We do not conceived in the uterus, we conceive in the fallopian tube and the baby does not implant in the uterus for 72 hours after conception.

Why change the lining of the uterus? Because God's design is so powerful, chemicals can not match His powerful design.

The industry had to lessen the chemicals that prevent ovulation because they were killing women. Does that really sound like this is "of God"?

So now with a "low dose" pill, shot, implant, "the ring" what ever your poison may be, there has to be a back up mechanism to get that 99.9% effective rate and that backup plan is, the baby will not be able to implant in the uterus if conception occurs so the baby will be aborted from the women's body.

There is a risk still that you will conceive a child and the idea is to have your body reject the baby if that should happen. This is a hard true fact.

Yes, thats right... a fertilised egg cannot implant in the uterine wall when a woman is on hormonal contraceptives.

But this is exactly the same as what happens when she is pregnant too...

I don't see any way to call stopping zygote implantation the same as abortion.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I personally believe the world can not get "over populated" but I realize ppl do think it can so this just goes on and on.

Can you explain your reasons for not believing the world can be overpopulated?

But thanks for at least giving a honest answer, you justify ABC and sterilization to curve overpopulation... is this correct?

I don't believe a justification is required. I don't see anything wrong with ABC ANYWAY... its a tool... like anything else artificial humans use to make life more convenient.

However, if you REALLY need a justification, curbing overpopulation (and, while we're at it, STD spread) sure seems like a valid justification to me

 

[Fantine]

I never said this is God's wrath. What i said was there are many theories out there and they are just that, theories.

And so if it is just a theory, and hurricanes, tsunamis, famine, global warming, etc. are not the result of God's wrath, then we are back to square one: God's permissive will allowing these things to happen because the world cannot sustain its current population and the effects are being felt in terms of global warming related climate crises, famines in certain areas of the world, etc.

Because I do not believe that God would choose to punish impoverished third world people for what you say are the sins of the industrialized, technological world, I believe the latter more readily than the former.

 

[Benedicta00]

And so if it is just a theory, and hurricanes, tsunamis, famine, global warming, etc. are not the result of God's wrath, then we are back to square one: God's permissive will allowing these things to happen because the world cannot sustain its current population and the effects are being felt in terms of global warming related climate crises, famines in certain areas of the world, etc.

Because I do not believe that God would choose to punish impoverished third world people for what you say are the sins of the industrialized, technological world, I believe the latter more readily than the former.

Okay.. good for you. I happen to think man's selfishness is why others go hungry.

 

[Benedicta00]

Can you explain your reasons for not believing the world can be overpopulated?

because God is ultimately the one who is in control and remember, Jesus is returning and that is what we need to be focusing on, his return, not perfecting this world because it will never be perfect, we can't make it perfect and that's the point, that is why Christ came the first time.

But I'm curious to know why don't you think we need to justify ourselves and what we do? After all, this world and this life is only on loan to us.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes, thats right... a fertilised egg cannot implant in the uterine wall when a woman is on hormonal contraceptives.

But this is exactly the same as what happens when she is pregnant too...

I don't see any way to call stopping zygote implantation the same as abortion.

oh, okay. So a woman is only a little pregnant at that stage in the game.