Contraception

[Benedicta00]

It is still contraception is it not?

If it is used as one, sure but that is not my question or the argument, now is it?

My question is God made the woman the way he did, did he not? Don't you think he did it for a reason? Yes or no would be fine.

How do you justify not using God's way and inventing powerful chemicals and other things that alter the way God has chosen to make the human body work?

It's really not that hard a answer but i realize why you will not answer it, it may cause you to have to think about things in a new light, and we know we can't have that happen, now can we?

 

[Benedicta00]

That dont hold any water across the board.

I refuse my own percribed medication that aids in saving my own life (or extending it). Now I heard that others might view that as suicide. You cannot win. Though you (it would appear) then would agree that such refusal was morally right? Is that correct? Given you mention these "artificial means" correct?

On this particular issue (medication) for "preventative birth" is being discussed. On the otherhand (my refusal of medication) is utillized moreso as a preventative to living on.

Its my choice either way as they are man made measures to prevent "something" either death or life in the flesh.

Whats your breif thought on refusing lifesaving meds?

Peace

Fireinfolding

I'm not understanding still the connection that is constantly made between illness and fertility.

Do you really think fertility and the gift of a baby needs to be treated as if it is a illness?

Sex = babies. That's a fact, my question is when /where did God give anyone permission to artificially remove fertility from sex? An answer would be nice.

 

[Benedicta00]

Bene...how many kids do you have?

6.

 

[Benedicta00]

Contraception is not 100% full-proof by any means and, if God wills it, those using it will not be childless.

So? Just because God can does not mean he will infringe on your free will right to make yourself sterile if that is what you choose to do whether that be temporary sterilization or permanent.

Just what are the odds given to God for forcing a couple who insists on not becoming pregnant? maybe 2%? So this is really not a valid excuse for ABC not being man's idea solely as he has removed God from it completely.

Again, I just want to know where all the advocates for ABC gets the idea from that God thinks this is okay? The bible says nothing either one way or the other.

 

[Benedicta00]

This is just another do as I say and not as I do sort of thing because they use a different type of bc.

But why don't you yourself use God's way instead of man's way and put the trust and matter of your fertility all into God's hands and let Him handle this for you?

What is so wrong with that IYO?

Where do you get that God gave man authority over his own fertility to invent chemicals and other things to totally destroy fertility?

Does it make sense to you that God would create you or anyone else fertile and then tell you or someone else to then destroy it?

Remember I am speaking to general you, not personal you.

 

[Benedicta00]

Sorry to come into this thread so late, but something just occurred to me re: Benedicta's repeated iteration of God making women's bodies to be fertile at times and infertile at times, but disease being a result of the Fall.

In the OT (the Law, as well as the Prophets), God refers to a woman's monthly period as "unclean." Now, why would God, before the Fall occurred, design woman so that one week of every month she was unclean and impure in his sight? Is it possible that menstruation is something that happened to our bodies after the Fall?

For the record, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this - just wanted to throw that out there.

So then you conclude that children are a curse and not a gift?

We lost our gifts at the fall and won the consequences, the effects of Adam's choice so now we get sick and die, it's a fact of fallen life.

I really don't think children are though... they IMO aren't a consequence of sin. You would even consider that they may be?

 

[IamAdopted]

If it is used as one, sure but that is not my question or the argument, now is it?

My question is God made the woman the way he did, did he not? Don't you think he did it for a reason? Yes or no would be fine.

How do you justify not using God's way and inventing powerful chemicals and other things that alter the way God has chosen to make the human body work?

It's really not that hard a answer but i realize why you will not answer it, it may cause you to have to think about things in a new light, and we know we can't have that happen, now can we?

And here is my question to you. How do you justify flaming others and calling something sin when it is not even in scripture when you and your church use a form of BC? Thats like saying that eating food other than the organic is sin because of this and that. I don't use human logic to declare sin or not. So how can you stand justified by condemning others for using BC when you yourself do it just by a different way? Who justifies you in this? Like I said just another do as I say and not as I do sort of thing. Not all use the pill or hormones or what ever they use. So don't sit in pious judgment on people who do the same as you just by a different means.

 

[Benedicta00]

It is the EXACT same answer as why YOU feel it is acceptable to use the "Sympto-Thermal Method" of contraception. Catholics use birth control ALL THE TIME, but you just aren't willing to admit it!

How do you justify that, while condemning me?

The Rhythm Method, or Sympto-Thermal Method is NO DIFFERENT than other forms of birth control. They accomplish the same result, and for the same reasons.

I justify it because it is in accord with how God made the body and it's not changing it.

Don't you think God knew what he was doing when he made the female? Why do you think man and man made drugs needs to change her?

 

[Benedicta00]

How is NFP any different? God knows the heart. It is still a desire to not have children at a given point in time. It is still rejecting God's blessings, if you agree with that line of reasoning.

Exactly. Ppl who use NFP as a contraceptive are just as guilty of sin. It's all in the mentality, anti-baby is the sin.

However, there is a twofold issue happening here. The means as well as the intent.

Even if you have a good intent, one simply can not use a immoral or evil means to achieve good.

Without getting into one's intent, I am focusing on the means only. The means are immoral and if one thinks they aren't, then why do they think that? What's the justification for it?

 

[Benedicta00]

No, the Pill DOESN'T cause abortions.

Yes... it can and often has.

 

[Benedicta00]

I believe ABC is moral because it prevents a greater evil... over population.

I don't buy the "its wrong because God didn't make us that way" argument, because humans have been using artificial tools to act in ways different to how God made them for as long as there have been humans.

Artificial contraception is a tool... morally, no different to a hammer.

Now certainly, like a hammer, I believe there are situations where it can be used immorally, but thats a very different thing to saying it is inherently immoral.

My reason for asking about you age, children, et al... I just wonder how much experience you have of wanting to have sex at a time when a child would be really inconvenient?

Over population? So that is why we need ABC? So we don't over populate God's world?

Don't you think God is capable enough to handle these issues? I'm curious to know why you feel you need to take the matter upon yourself?

Why can't we just trust God with everything including fertility and "over population"? Is there a reason why we can't just do that? Trust God?

 

[IamAdopted]

well now may I ask do you own a cow and milk this cow or do you buy your milk after it has been processed? Using artifical ingredients. Do you grow your own wheat and make your own flower to bake your own bread or do you by the processed bread? What justifies you to do this when God has made the cow to give us the milk and the land to grow the wheat. Do you not think that God knew what He was doing when He created the cow and the Land? Putting uneeded and artifical food into your system would this also be a sin? I mean this also is a moral issue. If you want to take that stand on Bc you need to take that stand on everything that goes into our bodies. For they are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Benedicta00]

And here is my question to you. How do you justify flaming others and calling something sin when it is not even in scripture when you and your church use a form of BC? Thats like saying that eating food other than the organic is sin because of this and that. I don't use human logic to declare sin or not. So how can you stand justified by condemning others for using BC when you yourself do it just by a different way? Who justifies you in this? Like I said just another do as I say and not as I do sort of thing. Not all use the pill or hormones or what ever they use. So don't sit in pious judgment on people who do the same as you just by a different means.

I am simply asking a thought provoking question.

Why do you think it is okay by God to artificially make woman or man infertile?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I justify it because it is in accord with how God made the body and it's not changing it.

Don't you think God knew what he was doing when he made the female? Why do you think man and man made drugs needs to change her?

So you and your husband willfully manipulate contraception, but your condemn others for doing the exact same thing.

That is sheer hypocrisy.

Do you, or do you not, intentionally abstain from sex at certain times of the month - for the express purpose of not getting pregnant?


In light of the overwhelming "problems" with the Roman Catholic Church, and the issues both facing it and destroying it, I'd think there would be FAR more productive things for Catholics to do rather than condemn people for their choices in contraception.

 

[Benedicta00]

well now may I ask do you own a cow and milk this cow or do you buy your milk after it has been processed? Using artifical ingredients. Do you grow your own wheat and make your own flower to bake your own bread or do you by the processed bread? What justifies you to do this when God has made the cow to give us the milk and the land to grow the wheat. Do you not think that God knew what He was doing when He created the cow and the Land? Putting uneeded and artifical food into your system would this also be a sin? I mean this also is a moral issue. If you want to take that stand on Bc you need to take that stand on everything that goes into our bodies. For they are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Why can't you just give a answer?

What is so wrong with just using nature to avoid a pregnancy?

Where do you get the notion from that God says inventing artificial means to avoid pregnancy is okay?

How are you equating processed foods with a human child's conception?

God gave us dominion over what we are to eat, did he give us dominion over our own fertility to the point we can artificially destroy it if that is what we choose to do?

 

[IamAdopted]

Why can't you just give a answer?

What is so wrong with just using nature to avoid a pregnancy?

Where do you get the notion from that God says inventing artificial means to avoid pregnancy is okay?

How are you equating processed foods with a human child's conception?

God gave us dominion over what we are to eat, did he give us dominion over our own fertility to the point we can artificially destroy it if that is what we choose to do?

He also gave dominion over procreating. For He gave man dominion over all things on earth in Genesis. We do not walk by trying to obey Laws of what one sect describes as sin Bene. We walk in the righteousness of Christ. It is as simple as that.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Why can't you just give a answer?

What is so wrong with just using nature to avoid a pregnancy?

That same question needs to be asked of YOU.

IF you were "using nature" to avoid pregnancy, you would be having a baby at least once every year. But you're not.


The REAL question is, "Why is one form of contraception deemed acceptable by the RCC, while others are arbitrarily condemned as wrong?"

 

[Benedicta00]

So you and your husband willfully manipulate contraception, but your condemn others for doing the exact same thing.

Jefferson, I loved to see where I have said anyone is going to hell because they used ABC...

I also haven't said that ppl who feel they should not conceive are hell bound either.

I have only asked where does the permission from God, to invent artificial means designed to stifle fertility, come from?

That is sheer hypocrisy.

Do you, or do you not, intentionally abstain from sex at certain times of the month - for the express purpose of not getting pregnant?


In light of the overwhelming "problems" with the Roman Catholic Church, and the issues both facing it and destroying it, I'd think there would be FAR more productive things for Catholics to do rather than condemn people for their choices in contraception.

A couple who feels they should not conceive has not been my focus. I've said zero about that.

I'm simply asking, if you should not conceive, why is God's way not a good enough way to use?

Can you provide an answer or not?

 

[Fantine]

Over population? So that is why we need ABC? So we don't over populate God's world?

Don't you think God is capable enough to handle these issues? I'm curious to know why you feel you need to take the matter upon yourself?

Why can't we just trust God with everything including fertility and "over population"? Is there a reason why we can't just do that? Trust God?

God, in what is euphemistically called His "permissive will," has handled these situations in the past with famine and disease.

Floods, tsunamis, hurricanes--the devastating weather-related tragedies which many link to global warming--and global warming is affected by overpopulation and overconsumption of natural resources.

The droughts and early frosts that can be another effect of global warming reduce crop yields, which contributes to hunger.

War, which is frequently waged for control over resources (some might even say this is the case in Iraq....)

Is it surprising that some people find man's way of controlling overpopulation preferable to God's permissive will unleashing destruction on an overpopulated world?

 

[Benedicta00]

That same question needs to be asked of YOU.

IF you were "using nature" to avoid pregnancy, you would be having a baby at least once every year. But you're not.


The REAL question is, "Why is one form of contraception deemed acceptable by the RCC, while others are arbitrarily condemned as wrong?"

because one is in accord with God and his will and His design of the human being and the other contradicts that.

One puts the trust and authority into God's hands and the other puts it all into man's.