Continuing Revelation

[smaneck]

You have to explain more. What do you mean prominent?

well-known, illustrious, etc.

 

[fatboys]

well-known, illustrious, etc.

I think your well known and illustrious.

 

[smaneck]

I think your well known and illustrious.

LOL. Maybe on the internet, but not in the real world or even in the Baha'i world. I guess that makes me 'virtually' prominent.

 

[cloudyday2]

I looked up Delusional Disorder. It is the new name for Paranoid Disorder.

I had never heard of paranoid disorder but after looking it up, it only partially intersects with the new category of delusional disorder. Delusional disorder has other forms besides the paranoid, and one of them is the grandiose. The classic example would be the people that believe they are Napoleon. My therapist was telling me about a group therapy session where everybody present had delusional disorder grandiose and believed he/she was Jesus Christ. There are other forms where the patient believes somebody else is in love with him/her. Most people with delusional disorder are hard to treat, because they are fully functional and do not see a need for treatment. Usually only their spouses can see the mental illness. People with the schizophrenic disorders have obvious symptoms like poor hygiene, strange behavior, scrambled speech, catatonia.

So I can easily imagine how a person with delusional disorder grandiose might become a cult leader and eventually create a new religion. Bipolar is another illness that might afflict religious leaders. When bipolar people are manic, they often believe they are God.

Obviously we can't diagnose religious leaders who lived centuries ago, but we should consider these possibilities IMO.

(Of course this is off-topic again... sorry.)

 

[smaneck]

I had never heard of paranoid disorder but after looking it up, it only partially intersects with the new category of delusional disorder. Delusional disorder has other forms besides the paranoid, and one of them is the grandiose.

Grandiosity has always been a part of paranoid disorder. You have to have an exaggerated sense of self to imagine that everyone is out to get you.

 

[cloudyday2]

Grandiosity has always been a part of paranoid disorder. You have to have an exaggerated sense of self to imagine that everyone is out to get you.

True, and also the categories of psychosis are somewhat arbitrary. One wise person on a psychology forum told me that each case of psychosis is different, because each person's mind is different.

 

[smaneck]

True, and also the categories of psychosis are somewhat arbitrary. One wise person on a psychology forum told me that each case of psychosis is different, because each person's mind is different.

Yeah, but there are some commonalities. Paranoid/Delusional Disorder tends emerge when people reach their 30's and 40's unlike disorganized forms of schizophrenia which emerge usually in late adolescents and early adulthood. Also, this disorder is more common among women than men.

 

[cloudyday2]

Yeah, but there are some commonalities. Paranoid/Delusional Disorder tends emerge when people reach their 30's and 40's unlike disorganized forms of schizophrenia which emerge usually in late adolescents and early adulthood. Also, this disorder is more common among women than men.

Hmmm. I didn't know that about the gender difference. I learned something.

 

[jackcv]

Indeed he does. But that doesn't mean your interpretation of that verse is correct.

Well, of course you are right. But when the Savior says unequivocally "by their fruits you may/will judge them," how do you justify eliminating 1/2 of "them" with your interpretation? You cannot. The whole purpose of behavior is fruits, results. Even pure science is funded because someone has faith that it will produce results that improve some facet of human existence. Our Father in heaven repeatedly calls on us to test Him and witness that obedience to His commandments pays off, temporally and spiritually. Billions of people have put Him to the test and can witness that He keeps his promises, backwards and forwards, full measure, packed down and overflowing. His doctrines are simple.

I have found that whenever someone gives complex answers, it's for one of 2 bad reasons.

• Either s/he is grossly ignorant on the subject at hand,
• or s/he is trying to confuse people for one predatory reason or another.

If this [a concerned parent receiving a sudden flash of intelligence that leads to finding a cure for one's dangerously sick child'] is what you mean by "revelation" (i.e. ordinary insight or awareness), it changes the discussion entirely. It changes it from a theological matter to a neurological or intellectual function.

That may be your personal interpretation, but you have taken one of several examples out of context and twisted it to fit your own faith. We have all done that occasionally, but it is poor form, and muddies the water.

People all over the world have experienced this sort of astounding influx of pure intelligence from outside self. It is personal revelation from God, a treasure much to be desired. Happily, such day-to-day insights are ordinary in many peoples' lives, both Christians and others. However, many whose neurology and intellect may appear far superior from man's viewpoint, struggle their whole lives trying to figure everything out themselves, and wonder why peace and happiness seem to elude them. By nature and disposition I am in the latter camp. I have to force myself to even want help, then to ask for it, and finally to follow it when it is given. Some are just more gifted than others.

 

[jackcv]

I had never heard of paranoid disorder but after looking it up, it only partially intersects with the new category of delusional disorder. Delusional disorder has other forms besides the paranoid, and one of them is the grandiose...

(Of course this is off-topic again... sorry.)

The bottom line seems to be: How does one distinguish between personal revelation from Above and

1. mental disorder?
2. feelings and thoughts engendered by personal emotions?
3. intuition based on past personal earthly experience?
4. spiritual communications from below?

What can we look for in order to recognize personal revelation, so as to not be confused and led into needless errors and sorrows?

 

[ContraMundum]

^ BTW, sorry for always trying to tear down religions. I know religions have an emotional and social value for many people.

As does tearing them down for others.

 

[ContraMundum]

I was thinking about how different religions have different policies on prophets.
- Judaism believes the prophets are history, but Judaism has kept its theology relevant by interpreting the existing revelations in new ways.

Judaism still teaches that a certain level of revelation can occur (Google "bat kol")

The issue is with most of the Judeo-Christian religions is that there differing types of revelation. Personal revelation can still occur, but canonical revelation which is binding on all mankind, is deemed to have ceased with the closing of the canon (OT for the Jews, NT for the Christians)

- Catholicism is similar to Baha'i with the Vatican as central authority.

The central authority in Catholicism (The Magisterium) is not believed to posses new revelation, but is a regulatory authority on previously given canonical revelation. It has the authority to make rulings on matters of faith, but not to write a new Bible.

- Protestantism is very decentralized with new inspirations and interpretations. The central authority seems to be the Bible. Lots of schisms result from this democratic approach.

Yep, that's close enough.

 

[Albion]

Well, of course you are right. But when the Savior says unequivocally "by their fruits you may/will judge them," how do you justify eliminating 1/2 of "them" with your interpretation? You cannot.

As you might imagine, I don't think that's what it means. It's not consistent with Scripture or the Gospels in particular to think that "by their fruits" means ONLY by their fruits. That would mean, if taken literally, that an atheist would be fine so long as he was nice.

This expression is saying that the "fruits" are a sign, an indicator. You seem to want it to be an iron rule that determines, in itself, who's in and who's out.

 

[cloudyday2]

The bottom line seems to be: How does one distinguish between personal revelation from Above and

1. mental disorder?
2. feelings and thoughts engendered by personal emotions?
3. intuition based on past personal earthly experience?
4. spiritual communications from below?

What can we look for in order to recognize personal revelation, so as to not be confused and led into needless errors and sorrows?

Why not look at all the forms of revelation that you listed as ideas rather than commandments? The idea should be evaluated through reasoning, consulting friends, etc. A woman with delusional disorder told me that she tries to ask another person's opinion before reacting to anything. She gave the example of seeing a building on fire, but due to her illness she wanted to be sure that it wasn't a hallucination before calling 911.

So if the voice of Baal tells you to buy stock in some company, then do some research, talk to friends, and make a wise decision.

 

[cloudyday2]

As you might imagine, I don't think that's what it means. It's not consistent with Scripture or the Gospels in particular to think that "by their fruits" means ONLY by their fruits. That would mean, if taken literally, that an atheist would be fine so long as he was nice.

This expression is saying that the "fruits" are a sign, an indicator. You seem to want it to be an iron rule that determines, in itself, who's in and who's out.

There is also the problem of short-term and long-term returns. Atheism might seem to make people better members of society than Christianity, but Christianity claims greater returns in the hereafter.

 

[Albion]

There is also the problem of short-term and long-term returns. Atheism might seem to make people better members of society than Christianity, but Christianity claims greater returns in the hereafter.

I don't think that's what "fruits" refers to, though.

 

[cloudyday2]

I don't think that's what "fruits" refers to, though.

The problem with using fruit is you cannot compare apples to oranges. It simplifies the discussion if we immediately convert the fruit to their equivalents in USD

 

[Robban]

Why not look at all the forms of revelation that you listed as ideas rather than commandments? The idea should be evaluated through reasoning, consulting friends, etc. A woman with delusional disorder told me that she tries to ask another person's opinion before reacting to anything. She gave the example of seeing a building on fire, but due to her illness she wanted to be sure that it wasn't a hallucination before calling 911.

So if the voice of Baal tells you to buy stock in some company, then do some research, talk to friends, and make a wise decision.

One explanation could be that she has a sixth sense, like animals,
they can sense danger up ahead,

An elephant chained to a tree, there is a fire not nearby but on it,s way,
most likely the elephant will pull up the tree by it,s roots.

On the other hand she may have lost the ability to reason.

I knew a woman once who would become hysterical if she got the least little
spot on her clothes, She waas obsessed with something about Saints having
unblemished white clothes/robes,

I told her that it did not matter if she had spilt a can of paint over herself.
I somehow persuaded her that is was about the garments of the soul,
Thoughts, speech and deed.

I don,t know how it went for her, hopefuly well,
because it was pretty energy consuming.
I don,t know if it was because she lost her father at the age of twelve,
something which she took very hard her brother commited suicide,

She said she had a uncle and aunt who went off to Africa as missionaries, they were both poisoned, maybe 20-30 yrs ago or more.

So there is a lot of stuff on a pizza, so to speak.

 

[ContraMundum]

There is also the problem of short-term and long-term returns. Atheism might seem to make people better members of society than Christianity, but Christianity claims greater returns in the hereafter.

Well, that's your view. I would say that Christianity claims both short and long term returns. I'd also be hesitant to say that atheism appears to make people better members of society. On sheers numbers alone any defined category could suffice there (eg. agnosticism, religion etc. There's always more outwardly "good" than bad in the world) And we don't have to look far to see how nations that have enshrined "atheism" as their official policy (eg. Maoist China or Kimist North Korea) have hardly been havens of generous good-natured living.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, that's your view. I would say that Christianity claims both short and long term returns. I'd also be hesitant to say that atheism appears to make people better members of society. On sheers numbers alone any defined category could suffice there (eg. agnosticism, religion etc. There's always more outwardly "good" than bad in the world) And we don't have to look far to see how nations that have enshrined "atheism" as their official policy (eg. Maoist China or Kimist North Korea) have hardly been havens of generous good-natured living.

People often point to communist dictatorships from the past as examples of atheist culture, but why not look at current examples of atheist cultures that are all around us like Japan, Sweden, etc.? Hopefully the US will be counted as an atheist culture in a decade or two.

(Sorry, I keep dragging this thread off-topic. I'm going to stop following it, so that doesn't keep happening.)