Continuing Revelation

[cloudyday2]

Okay- I think this post qualifies as a valid rebuttal- but the psychiatric disorder stuff in your additional posts is going too far. I'm obviously not Baha'i and I don't believe as they do or think their religion is true. However, there is a line.

O.k., I didn't mean to offend anybody, but I think delusional disorder is a plausible explanation for people who think they are divinely inspired. Many people don't understand delusional disorder, because they think all people with psychosis are obvious. I didn't know much about psychosis until my therapist told me that I had delusional disorder. That is why I learned about it. I don't think it was an accurate diagnosis, but I had something similar.

 

[cloudyday2]

Very true. When someone has grandiose delusions, it is apparent. There a lot of Jesus Christ's, St. Michaels, and Queens of England pregnant with Prince William's baby in psych wards.

No, it is not necessarily apparent - especially if the person is surrounded by people who think the grandiose delusion is plausible. I've talked to people with delusional disorder on forums and read their stories. They have bizarre beliefs, but they go to work and act like normal people. Usually the belief makes the person important. The person might believe that the mafia or the CIA is trying to assassinate him/her, and that means he/she is important instead of a nobody. Other people believe they have a unique connection to God. IDK.

Sorry if this idea offends. I only intended to inform people about something that I know a little bit about - psychosis.

 

[smaneck]

Okay- I think this post qualifies as a valid rebuttal- but the psychiatric disorder stuff in your additional posts is going too far. I'm obviously not Baha'i and I don't believe as they do or think their religion is true. However, there is a line.

Not offended. Seen much worse here.

 

[Ironhold]

- Mormonism seems to expect prophecies only from the central authorities, so that maintains unity (?)

Actually, the church holds that people will receive revelation in line with their position and their needs.

As such, only the church leadership will receive revelation that governs the church as a whole.

 

[Ironhold]

By way of explanation, let's consider some hypothetical examples:

*A parent concerned about their child's difficulties in school receives a sudden insight (re: revelation) that perhaps they should discuss the matter with the family physician... who, after talking with the child, recommends an optometrist that treats children and vends corrective lenses in child-friendly sizes.

*A tradesman may receive revelation that they should go check on an apprentice... who, due to inexperience, does not realize that they are about to install a component in the wrong place.

*A law enforcement officer may receive revelation that they should call for back-up before checking out the car that's been sitting on the side of the road... and which contains a wanted criminal who is fast asleep in the back seat.

*A bishop may receive revelation that he needs to encourage the priesthood and the Relief Society to step up their success rate when it comes to visitation... because the National Guard is about to call up several members of the congregation to assist with a disaster relief mission, meaning that these members - and their families - will need all the support that they can get.

Et cetra.

Each person, if they are faithful, can receive revelation concerning whatever it is that they have responsibility over. They will not receive revelation for anything beyond their purview, but they will receive it for what they are responsible for.

 

[jackcv]

There is a mental illness called "delusional disorder". This is related to schizophrenia except that the hallucinations are less significant than the delusional beliefs. Unlike people with schizophrenia, people with delusional disorder are completely sane and functional in all areas except for the delusional belief. Often spouses are the only people who realize there is a problem. Even psychotherapists are often unable to diagnose the illness, because these people seem so rational. In many cases the psychotherapists are persuaded that the spouse has the problem instead of the person with delusional disorder.

This sounds very, very similar to Same Sex Attraction Disorder, which is politically incorrect. The concept of SSAD marriage is certainly delusional.

 

[jackcv]

FWIW, this perspective champions two concepts that are fatal to any religion. Or to put it another way, they open the door to any purely artificial religion.

1. There is no timeless standard to guide men because any innovation or change can be attributed to new revelation. That's how women's ordination was argued in the face of overwhelming evidence that stood against it and nothing really that argued in favor of the change except, of course, "The Holy Spirit has changed his mind. Trust me (i.e. whoever the speaker is) on that."

While continuing revelation from the Almighty is the sine qua non of true religion, I certainly agree with Albion that there are timeless standards. They guide both God and man. Only by consecrating oneself to those standards (Lev 11:44, etc.) may we become one in Christ and the Father, and they one in us. (Jn 17:20-26, etc. Rev 3:21, etc.) The person who teaches that one should not pray always (which prayer necessarily includes expecting guidance and grace as a result) is grossly out of harmony with the Bible from Genesis to Revelations, and is usually in direct, deliberate opposition to the Savior, Jesus Christ.

2. The idea that truth of any religion is to be judged solely by its fruits. No, we may be able to identify a true faith by its fruits, but the inverse doesn't hold. There are many charitable, peaceful, and fair-minded people quite apart from what their religious convictions are--or whether they have any at all.

Jesus Christ states unequivocally that "by their fruits ye will know them." (NIV Matt 7:16) Where does He play word games about which "them" we are judging? Do you think that, just because a little mother has never heard the name "Jesus Christ", she cannot act, consecrate herself and pray in His name? What do you propose "in my name" means?

 

[jackcv]

Actually, the church holds that people will receive revelation in line with their position and their needs.

As such, only the church leadership will receive revelation that governs the church as a whole.

I concur with this, and only wish to add that church members (and all humanity) at all levels are encouraged to ponder and ask questions about anything which they feel is important to their relationships with God, their family, the Church, their community, nation, world. I may receive revelation about what command God will instruct the prophet to give the world next year. But God's house is a house of order, and I am not ordained (in order) to announce that to anyone. Much, perhaps most, personal revelation is personal, even "unlawful to be spoken."

 

[Albion]

Jesus Christ states unequivocally that "by their fruits ye will know them." (NIV Matt 7:16)

Indeed he does. But that doesn't mean your interpretation of that verse is correct.

 

[cloudyday2]

This sounds very, very similar to Same Sex Attraction Disorder, which is politically incorrect. The concept of SSAD marriage is certainly delusional.

Delusional Disorder is a real diagnosis that has been accepted by all psychiatrists for decades. Same Sex Attraction Disorder is an invention of one person who isn't even a psychiatrist.

 

[Albion]

By way of explanation, let's consider some hypothetical examples:

*A parent concerned about their child's difficulties in school receives a sudden insight (re: revelation) that perhaps they should discuss the matter with the family physician... who, after talking with the child, recommends an optometrist that treats children and vends corrective lenses in child-friendly sizes.

If this is what you mean by "revelation" (i.e. ordinary insight or awareness), it changes the discussion entirely. It changes it from a theological matter to a neurological or intellectual function.

 

[Albion]

Delusional Disorder is a real diagnosis that has been accepted by all psychiatrists for decades. Same Sex Attraction Disorder is an invention of one person who isn't even a psychiatrist.

I don't think I'd put TOO much faith in what the psychiatrists and psychologists say, in any case. They'll go whichever way the political winds are blowing, adjusting their professional definitions and standards accordingly. In this case, it's not PC to even contemplate that a disorder is anything but a preference, so that's the decision.

 

[Aidan K]

You realize the KJV is a translation, not the Bible? If by this you mean we consider Baha'u'llah's Writings themselves to be the standard upon which spiritual truth is measured, that would be correct. But I would not ascribe propositional inerrancy to the Writings. In other words, I don't rely on them in matters of history or science. In any case the Writings only become a source of authority after our investigations have determined that Baha'u'llah is indeed a Manifestation of God.



It is the process which proceeds conversion where one determines the validity of someone's claim to have received revelation. Might that choice have to be re-evaluated at some point? Quite possibly, but I don't do it with ever verse Baha'u'llah reveals. I did it when I first began reading His Writings before I became a Baha'i.

In the thread where this discussion was first started it was suggested that we had to have an 'infallible standard' for determining who was a Prophet. I submit that no such standard exist because it is up to the individual to independently investigate truth for themselves and no individual is infallible. Ian Semple, a prominent Baha'i described ones personal responsibility in these terms:

1. The foundation for all development is to know oneself and to accept one's own responsibility for one's own life.

2. The next step is to learn that for a person to follow his own inclinations in everything leads to chaos in his own life and in society as a whole.

3. This leads one to search for an external source of authority, for what is truth. When one thinks one has found such a source it is essential to validate it. To fail to do so is to sacrifice one of the most fundamental rights and duties of a human being.

4. Having decided that a source of authority is valid, and that one wishes to obey it, one can only put this into practice if one understands what that source of authority requires.

5. Finally, unless one uses one's intelligence and good judgment in exercising one's obedience to authority, one may well end up doing the opposite of what it really intends.

All five of these processes require the exercise of one's reasoning powers. They are the negation of the concept of "blind obedience" [taqlid] and I believe that this concept of blind obedience is contrary to the spirit of the Faith. Obedience, for a Bahá'í is the free exercise of one's will to follow what one believes to be right. Blind obedience is the abdication of one's free will.

Susan, what is a "prominent Baha'i"?

 

[smaneck]

This sounds very, very similar to Same Sex Attraction Disorder, which is politically incorrect. The concept of SSAD marriage is certainly delusional.

Off topic.

 

[smaneck]

Susan, what is a "prominent Baha'i"?

In this case it was a member of the Universal House of Justice.

 

[smaneck]

That's a pretty broad definition of revelation. Baha'is mean something different entirely.

By way of explanation, let's consider some hypothetical examples:

*A parent concerned about their child's difficulties in school receives a sudden insight (re: revelation) that perhaps they should discuss the matter with the family physician... who, after talking with the child, recommends an optometrist that treats children and vends corrective lenses in child-friendly sizes.

*A tradesman may receive revelation that they should go check on an apprentice... who, due to inexperience, does not realize that they are about to install a component in the wrong place.

*A law enforcement officer may receive revelation that they should call for back-up before checking out the car that's been sitting on the side of the road... and which contains a wanted criminal who is fast asleep in the back seat.

*A bishop may receive revelation that he needs to encourage the priesthood and the Relief Society to step up their success rate when it comes to visitation... because the National Guard is about to call up several members of the congregation to assist with a disaster relief mission, meaning that these members - and their families - will need all the support that they can get.

Et cetra.

Each person, if they are faithful, can receive revelation concerning whatever it is that they have responsibility over. They will not receive revelation for anything beyond their purview, but they will receive it for what they are responsible for.

 

[smaneck]

Delusional Disorder is a real diagnosis that has been accepted by all psychiatrists for decades. Same Sex Attraction Disorder is an invention of one person who isn't even a psychiatrist.

I looked up Delusional Disorder. It is the new name for Paranoid Disorder.

 

[Aidan K]

In this case it was a member of the Universal House of Justice.

I thought all Baha'is are of equal prominence!

 

[smaneck]

I thought all Baha'is are of equal prominence!

I don't know. I think the Hands of the Cause and members of the Universal House of Justice are probably more prominent than I'll ever be. But if you mean no individual has any particular authority, that is certainly true.

 

[fatboys]

I don't know. I think the Hands of the Cause and members of the Universal House of Justice are probably more prominent than I'll ever be. But if you mean no individual has any particular authority, that is certainly true.

You have to explain more. What do you mean prominent?