Continuing research into the possibility of the reality of the Exodus, and current data/conclusions.

[SelfSim]

You've not provided any logical arguments to the contrary, @sjastro has maybe, about the exodus maybe, etc, but as for other things, or everything else, etc, no one has so far provided any logical evidence or arguments to the contrary, etc. Like if you can disprove Jesus, then be my guest, etc.

Fyi: I don't really have any opinions on, or desires to, disprove Jesus. I'm focused on other things (science, reality etc).

Oh and @sjastro has convincingly demonstrated the evidence to the contrary (and i agree with you: I haven't).

And are you in denial of the fact that many of the most monumental discoveries started out as having a belief, etc?

If you're referring to scientific 'discoveries', then the closest initiating notion which may look like 'a belief', I can think of, would be an hypothesis. However hypotheses are stated to be testable, either in theory, or in practice .. which distinguishes them from being a pure belief. For example, and somewhat in spite of what some fantatics say, science's Origin of Life hypotheses can be easily stated as testable hypotheses and are nowhere near 'on par' with biblical miracles (as those fanatics claim).

Because in my opinion your very own definition of a belief in post #230 is still somewhat lacking, etc.

Its not my very own definition. Its an operationally testable definition anyone can try on .. (and your demonstrations quoted in post#258 serve to exemplify the results).

 

[Neogaia777]

Fyi: I don't really have any opinions on, or desires to, disprove Jesus. I'm focused on other things (science, reality etc).

Oh and @sjastro has convincingly demonstrated the evidence to the contrary (and i agree with you: I haven't).


If you're referring to scientific 'discoveries', then the closest initiating notion which may look like 'a belief', I can think of, would be an hypothesis. However hypotheses are stated to be testable, either in theory, or in practice .. which distinguishes them from being a pure belief. For example, and somewhat in spite of what some fantatics say, science's Origin of Life hypotheses can be easily stated as testable hypotheses and are nowhere near 'on par' with biblical miracles (as those fanatics claim).

Its not my very own definition. Its an operationally testable definition anyone can try on .. (and your demonstrations quoted in post#258 serve to exemplify the results).

Have a nice day.

God Bless.

 

[SelfSim]

All views start out as being held out as being possible because of some kind of bias, or preference, etc, and it isn't until afterwards that they then seek to follow it up with some kinds of objective tests, and/or logic, or evidence, etc.

This is how every great discovery in science, and in life, or "whatever", was ever, ever made, etc.

And I don't disagree with that process.

A scientist's purpose however, is distinguishable from the purpose behind Biblical miracles/beliefs.
Science's purpose is to be of practical use and so any scientist is usually happy to find their hypothesis doesn't measure up against objective test results .. (ie: in finding they were objectively wrong).

The Biblical miracles however, are declared as being truths upfront, to enlist other's minds, and dispel notions that they might possibility not be so.

 

[SelfSim]

Have a nice day.

Hmm .. a hasty departure. I was enjoying that discussion.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Neogaia777]

And I don't disagree with that.

A scientist's purpose however, is distinguishable from the purpose behind Biblical miracles/beliefs.
Science's purpose is to be of practical use and so any scientist is usually happy to find their hypothesis doesn't measure up against objective test results .. (ie: in finding they were objectively wrong).

The Biblical miracles however, are declared as being truths upfront, to enlist other's minds, and dispel notions that they might possibility not be so.

And am I seeming to have a problem with that about the exodus?

And right now, I think Jesus doing certain things that we consider beyond normal right now, is right now anyway, the most likely possibility in the realm of possibilities right now, if you were to look at it truly objectively, etc

And I think the only reason you don't think that right now, is only because of your own personal bias personally, etc.

I'm sorry it's not totally testable right now objectively, but that in itself is a result of one's own personal bias against it personally, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hmm .. a hasty departure. I was enjoying that discussion.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We can talk some more if you like, I was just trying not to be too pushy, and/or be respectful/polite, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

And I don't disagree with that process.

A scientist's purpose however, is distinguishable from the purpose behind Biblical miracles/beliefs.
Science's purpose is to be of practical use and so any scientist is usually happy to find their hypothesis doesn't measure up against objective test results .. (ie: in finding they were objectively wrong).

The Biblical miracles however, are declared as being truths upfront, to enlist other's minds, and dispel notions that they might possibility not be so.

Purposes to or for anything differ from individual to individual, etc.

But almost all of us have our reasons, etc.

And I can only hope that mine, are not all only just self-serving only, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[SelfSim]

Purposes to or for anything differ from individual to individual, etc.

But almost all of us have our reasons, etc.

And I can only hope that mine, are not all only just self-serving only, etc.

Hmm .. it seems your chosen purpose is to suppress 'self' and serve a belief there(?)
A scientist is unlikely to progress their research if their total output is merely an expression of themselves as an individual.

 

[Neogaia777]

Hmm .. it seems your chosen purpose is to suppress 'self' and serve a belief there(?)

Well, there has to be balance, but for a lot of us that already starts at a default a lot, lot more towards self, than it ever does others, etc.

It's "love your neighbors/fellow man AS you love yourself", after all, you know, etc.

But the only belief I am really serving, or am trying to serve, is mainly just the one in my own conscience, but that also just so happens to agree with most of Jesus teachings, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Consider the feeding of the five thousand. If this is a story of how the personal sacrifice of a family to share their bread and fishes led to others to do the same with the food they had been concealing, then that selfless act has, for me, a much greater spiritual significance than some fancy supernatural act of creating more bread and fish on the fly. For then you have a tale of Jesus inspiring selflessness in a community, leading them to conduct their lives on that occassion exactly as he advocated.

This choice you made to mention this story. About 25 years ago our priest use a similar non-supernatural version of the fishes story to expound upon the same moral lesson about giving, and the fear of having to give it all away. I liked it enough to actually tell it to some one else (my mom). It wasn't until later that I realized that it might "broken the spell" on the miracles of Jesus. (I'd already dismissed extra-biblical miracles.)

 

[Neogaia777]

A scientist is unlikely to progress their research if their total output is merely an expression of themselves as an individual.

I agree with you.

I come on here to have others to share and exchange ideas with in the hopes of finding or discovering certain kinds of truths, etc?

Scientific, Religious, Epistemological, and other kinds of truths, etc.

You have to have other people to work those out with, and I don't have a whole lot of other people much now in my life now anymore, or for the most part in my life now anymore, and so I sometimes come on here for that sometimes now, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm just thinking here, so please just bear with me for a minute, ok.

And I guess I am trying to decide which is more or less believable, or likely/not likely, and am trying to do that in a truly objective fashion, or at least I am trying to do that anyway, etc. And my main focus here is going to be what we have written down about Jesus, etc?

Did he really do even one genuine miracle? If you think he really even truly existed, etc? Or is what we have written down about him all lies, or all exaggerations to the point of being complete fabrications about him in that area, etc? Or what is the most possible/not possible, or likely/not likely, or believable/not believable conclusion in these areas, etc?

And I'm asking you to do this in an objective fashion that is not at all biased or prejudiced against "miracles" for a minute, ok.

So, without any kind of bias or prejudice against that, what is, or what are the most likely possibilities, etc?

God Bless

 

[dlamberth]

I'm just thinking here, so please just bear with me for a minute, ok.

And I guess I am trying to decide which is more or less believable, or likely/not likely, and am trying to do that in a truly objective fashion, or at least I am trying to do that anyway, etc. And my main focus here is going to be what we have written down about Jesus, etc?

Did he really do even one genuine miracle? If you think he really even truly existed, etc? Or is what we have written down about him all lies, or all exaggerations to the point of being complete fabrications about him in that area, etc? Or what is the most possible/not possible, or likely/not likely, or believable/not believable conclusion in these areas, etc?

And I'm asking you to do this in an objective fashion that is not at all biased or prejudiced against "miracles" for a minute, ok.

So, without any kind of bias or prejudice against that, what is, or what are the most likely possibilities, etc?

God Bless

I have several thoughts.

First off, the stories of the Jesus miracles were first passed on by word of mouth. And those stores, in the storyteller’s desire to glorify Jesus added a bit to the supposed event. That’s a natural human thing to do.

Next, reported miracles are recorded by others of other spiritual trajectories. Miracles are not restricted/limited to Jesus alone. Check out the lives of other mystics, even Christian mystics to explore this avenue. With that knowledge, I don’t fully disregard the miracles attributed to Jesus but I do place them as interesting.

Lastly, in my opinion, miracles are nothing to hang a hat on. The reason being when focused on they can get into the way of other stuff, like one’s spiritual union with the Divine. For Christians that would be through Jesus. And that’s where the path of Love comes into play. That personal transformation through the journey of Love is the only miracle that has real meaning for a person. It's how God is made a reality in one's life.

My guess is that I’ve added some unfamiliar concepts?

 

[AV1611VET]

First off, the stories of the Jesus miracles were first passed on by word of mouth. And those stores, in the storyteller’s desire to glorify Jesus added a bit to the supposed event. That’s a natural human thing to do.

Was it a "natural thing to do" to die for what you wrote, when all you had to do was admit you fabricated the story?

Would Mark Twain choose to be burned at the stake if he wrote Tom Sawyer as being a real person, if all he had to do is say he wrote it as fiction?

In addition, would you fabricate a story that all the children in the state you live in from two years old and below were put to death by executive order of the governor?

And having done so, expect it to be believed?

 

[sjastro]

@sjastro

If the exodus and some of the earlier parts of the Bible are not factually or historically true, then at what point do you think it becomes reliable as being true in a factual or historical way, if any at all?

I'd say Jesus was a real person, and that all or most of what we have about him, including the ability to perform some very real factual miracles, is factually true, even if you don't, etc, but how far back do you think the Bible is reliable as being factually true, if any at all etc?

I've heard stories about some of it being modified or sometimes changed completely during their time spent in Babylon in exile, but I'd have to look into that more to see if it is factually true, etc.

What are your thoughts, etc?

Also, what would you hypothesize for someone like me if I think Jesus was someone (a real person that actually existed), that could do or perform the miraculous as being a real thing, or 100% factually true?

Like what do you think he believed, etc? Did he believe everything literally? And if so, then was he decieved? Or how or where did he get the ability to perform miracles from for someone who still believes that to be factually true, etc?

Also, about the OT, why the stories if not factually true, etc?

God Bless.

Once again it looks as if you are trying steer this discussion towards my beliefs and as I mentioned in a previous thread it is not up for scrutiny.
The thread is about the historicity of Exodus.

 

[SelfSim]

I'm just thinking here, so please just bear with me for a minute, ok.

And I guess I am trying to decide which is more or less believable, or likely/not likely, and am trying to do that in a truly objective fashion, or at least I am trying to do that anyway, etc. And my main focus here is going to be what we have written down about Jesus, etc?

Did he really do even one genuine miracle? If you think he really even truly existed, etc? Or is what we have written down about him all lies, or all exaggerations to the point of being complete fabrications about him in that area, etc? Or what is the most possible/not possible, or likely/not likely, or believable/not believable conclusion in these areas, etc?

And I'm asking you to do this in an objective fashion that is not at all biased or prejudiced against "miracles" for a minute, ok.

So, without any kind of bias or prejudice against that, what is, or what are the most likely possibilities, etc?

Supernatural 'miracles' are demonstrably a belief which religious people hold as being 'true', or 'real'.
I don't care much about that kind of truth or reality.

 

[AV1611VET]

Supernatural 'miracles' are demonstrably a belief which religious people hold as being 'true', or 'real'.
I don't care much about that kind of truth or reality.

What I'd like to know is:

If the supernatural miracle of the parting of the Red Sea is just a figment of someone's imagination, then how did the Israelites get into the desert?

Where was their entrance point?

 

[dlamberth]

Was it a "natural thing to do" to die for what you wrote, when all you had to do was admit you fabricated the story?

Would Mark Twain choose to be burned at the stake if he wrote Tom Sawyer as being a real person, if all he had to do is say he wrote it as fiction?

In addition, would you fabricate a story that all the children in the state you live in from two years old and below were put to death by executive order of the governor?

And having done so, expect it to be believed?

I said nothing about fabricating a story. What I believe happened, as people are prone to do, the stories in their retelling were glamorized and embellished over time. That's human nature.

 

[AV1611VET]

I said nothing about fabricating a story. What I believe happened, as people are prone to do, the stories in their retelling were glamorized and embellished over time. That's human nature.

So now you're invoking the Arab Phone Game to dilute the word of God?

 

[sjastro]

What I'd like to know is:

If the supernatural miracle of the parting of the Red Sea is just a figment of someone's imagination, then how did the Israelites get into the desert?

Where was their entrance point?

You are one hopelessly confused dude that can't differentiate fact from fiction.
Ignoring the parting of the Red Sea which may be allegory, why on earth would the Israelites pick such a convoluted route to reach the promised land?

The shortest route is via the "Way of Horus" which avoids the Red Sea altogether.
It is so named because it was a common invasion path to and from Egypt in history.
The Hyskos invaded Egypt from this route in the 17th century BC and fled the pursuing Egyptians 150 years later the same way.

The 18th dynasty New Kingdom Egyptians who went on to conquer Canaan and Syria recognized the strategic importance of the Way of Horus and built a series of forts along the way to protect the north eastern flank of Egypt.