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Confused which is the true church

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by ovis90, Jul 15, 2018.

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  1. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Is a little right of Atilla the Hun Supporter

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    Actually this is not true. Constantine merely legalized Christianity. It was Theodosius I some 70 years later than made Christianity the official religion on the Roman Empire.
     
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  2. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Once a person sees through the fallacious nature of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura then they come to realize that authority for understanding and preserving and proclaiming the gospel had to be vested in the Church that Christ established for that purpose. And that Church must necessarily have a traceable historical lineage to the beginnings of our faith.

    It took me 25 years to make the round trip out of and back into the CC though, after many years in Protestant Churches and a long time going round and round debating Scripture, with both sides often offering quite plausible, and opposing, interpretations.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  3. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    That “traceable historical lineage” is not to be found the the so called “Apostolic succession” of the Catholic Church, unfortunately.

    Careful study of the history of the Papacy will reveal the horrendous and unspeakable things said and done in the name of Christ, specifically by those who claimed to be the” Vicar of Christ.”

    This corrupt hierarchy of men, that is so often confusing (at one time there were 3 Popes and at other times the Papal throne was bought and sold or obtained by adultery and murder) is one of the most despicable historic linages to be found. Nor is it made any less dispicable for bearing the name of Christ.

    The Catholic Church stands or falls on its claim of “Apostolic succession” and it is my firm belief that when we look at Scripture and the true Church, we can see clearly that the hierarchy and history of the Catholic Papacy bears absolutely nothing in common with the true Early Church and it’s foundations.

    True representatives of Christ would never have done the things the Papacy has done throughout history. Never.
     
  4. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree. Legit Christians are with in all the different Christian subgroups mixed with The Tares.
     
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Even if all that was based on responsible scholarship rather that truths, half-truths, and sheer contrived anti-Catholic, ahistorical wishful thinking, the truth remains: the historical Church Christ established must be found-and that's where "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" will be found, the faith as taught by the apostles, the faith that doesn't need to be endlessly debated via Scripture as it is on these forums, between adherents of Sola Scriptura. That Chruch, wherever it is and by whatever name it goes by, has been responsible for preserving the faith down through the centuries and, without it, we have no guarantee of correctly understanding that faith.
     
  6. Brian Mcnamee

    Brian Mcnamee Well-Known Member

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    The church is the body of believers who are saved by the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is only one gospel by which we need be saved and so those who have entered in enter from many different denominations through the same conversion through faith in Jesus. The other issues are really to be taken one by one and the scriptures will hold the final authority. There are many places where there are contradictory opinions based on scripture held in opposing views. One of the main reasons for opposing views is one group can hold to an allegorical view of the texts while others hold to a literal view. Catholics hold tradition as on par with scripture and when you get so far away from the scriptures with traditions once you start to study scripture you can understand it pretty well. The scriptures themselves predict in the end times that the church would not be teaching sound doctrine. It even warns of the doctrines of demons being taught. I suggest you apply the things in the Bible that are taught clearly into your life. Be in prayer and fellowship and study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of truth. It is ok to disagree with brothers and sisters on many issues. We are a family. The LORD will straighten us all out in due time.
     
  7. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I find it important to understand the idea of the "bible only" is a relatively new one, primarily one springing from the Protestant fundamentalist movement of the late 1800's.

    For almost all mainstream churches, the Tradition of the Church is important; sacraments are important; the eucharist is important. Most of these churches agree that any "new" idea cannot be valid if it contradicts scripture. Some would say that scripture contains all that we need believe. Other think that Tradition gives us new interpretations.

    And therein lies the rub. The bible-only people often rely on individual interpretation of Scripture (or the interpretation of their pastor, as opposed to the understandings of the centuries of Christians.

    As has been said, there are many Christian communities of faith. The mainstream ones I mentioned before include: Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian and Methodist. They constitute a large majority of the world's Christians.

     
  8. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    With respect - You make a great many assertions and statements, ( RCC not this or that) with nothing to back them up.

    The reality is there was only one church in early times, other than a few heretical groups outed as such, take for example gnostics and modalists - noted as heresies in such as iraneus - in pre New Testament times , who also noted the importance of church teaching /and faith passed by tradition and that of Rome presided. He also listed the bishops of Rome - as did Augustine centuries on in new testament canon formation time.


    That church was the Catholic Church the " foundation of truth", which was only given the name" Roman " by others after the eastern split away. To us it is still the Catholic Church.

    But I urged you and OP to consider four things - have you?

    First how consistent you are with what those taught by apostles believed ( e.g. Eucharist of " real flesh" valid only if performed by bishops in succession. That alone reduces Church possibilities to very few.

    Second that " what you believe" should be subordinated to early church tradition - teaching of apostles - faith handed down - and the authority of councils to " bind and loose" on disputes on doctrine. Given by Jesus. That's what bind and loose means!

    Third - that without that authority you would not have a New Testament canon.

    Finally that many follow early tradition without recognising it for what it is. I gave examples. Which do not change because truth does not change. Understanding may develop e.g. Trinity. But what all of us regard as understanding of trinity was always true, it did not exist only from the time it was first mentioned as such!


    Those who believe that only scripture matters and that the Holy Spirit guides them to truth, believe in a myriad of exclusive alternatives on every aspect of doctrine, ad witness so many denominations. Which proves scripture is not enough. Because they diverge on every aspect of meaning. Who is to say yours is right?

    I urge the OP to study early church, indeed who and how the canon was chosen, and that all follow tradition, many without recognising it.

    My suggestion is all read books like " by what authority" Mark Shea. And see that the idea of scripture without tradition simply doesn't work.


     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  9. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While true, this is a very dangerous pastoral idea.

    Scripture does NOT speak for itself. There are many translations and interpretations of the same passages. Even the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic words meant different things in the cultures of the time. [for example, one might review the idea of the "manger"].

    The teachings of the Church, including interpretation of newer and better translations are part of the Church's Tradition. Many (since the 1850's) are willing to throw out Tradition each generation, and rely on our own individual interpretations. And when I discuss the Tradition of the Church, I include all the churches that believe in the very idea of Church (as well as church) and the sacraments (sometimes only 2).

     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  10. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Hardly. It's a matter of well documented history that even Catholic historians acknowledge. Not at all "sheer contrived, anti-Catholic, a-historical wishful thinking."

    The "faith taught by the apostles" is found in Scripture, not in man-made doctrines and traditions that go against Scripture.

    God has always had His faithful "remnant." In any case, as I realize this is the advice area of the forums, and not the debate or discussion area, I will go no further with this here.

    I do give the advice that the OP do careful research into the doctrines and traditions of the Catholic Church, compared to Scripture. (As all Christians should.)
     
  11. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    By What Authority is a fine book.

    I would note that there are many interpretations of the eucharist. For me, the IMPORTANT issue is that the Church of choice believe that Jesus is really present (as opposed to being absent) in the elements. The details and mechanism are fine for debating. Some churches that believe Jesus is really present are the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian.

     
  12. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, this is an important issue. Those who believe in the bible-alone reject the Church Councils and the much of teaching of the Early Church. What bible do they accept and personally interpret? What translation?

    As you say, even which book should be included is even currently in dispute. In the first few centuries, there were many, many "books" of scripture being read in the churches. It was a Council of the Church that decided with regard to which books should be rejected and which should be included. Most important was the rejection of so many texts.

     
  13. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    It's not any church that saves you.

    John 3.16 explains Who saves. :) Romans explains how to be at a right standing with God through faith. Ephesians explains the wondrous grace of God.
     
  14. Yarddog

    Yarddog Senior Contributor Supporter

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    To let you know, Catholics are all born again Christians. You may have found a closer relationship with Jesus but he was always there with you and God's Spirit was there as well.

    God bless
     
  15. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    Pray The Holy Rosary and you will "receive" our Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit and Holy Mother Mary into your heart in unity with our Lord Jesus Christ in His Holy Divine Sacred Heart and in Holy Mother Marys Holy Immaculate Heart focussing on our Lord Jesus Christs Bitter Passion, His Sorrows, His Sufferings then ask our Lord Jesus Christ about His Holy Divine Catholic Church and His Holy Divine Presence Physically and Spiritually/Divinity Presence at His Holy Altars, in His Holy Blessed Sacrament and in His Holy Tabernacles.

    Visit Jesus on a Friday around 3pm if you can and adore our Lord Jesus Christ in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacrament at the Altar - Jesus said "few do this".

    Hand over your heart Soul and Life to Jesus in complete trust and you wont ever be indecisive on His Holy Divine Church matters
     
  16. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    In other words ask our Lord Jesus Himself and be patient awaiting His response...do not rush off.

    Jesus says

    "The greater the trust in Me, the greater My Mercy"
     
  17. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Beware comparisons: for example.

    I think you will find the Methodist interpretation is different. As far as I am aware they regard the presence as a fulfillment of
    " wherever they are gathered in my name, there I am" . So far different context to John 6 or ignatius/ Justin Martyr " real flesh" valid only if performed by bishop or appointee.
    And indeed as far as I am aware they make no claim to succession priesthood.


    Checking all boxes it is hard to get past Catholic and orthodox.


     
  18. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    Don't study.

    Repent to Jesus your sins first from your heart melted in remorse to Him.
    That first without judgement.
    Then "know" that Jesus is truly Present Manifested at His Holy Altars in His Blessed Holy Divine Sacrament and in His Holy Divine Tabernacles just as God The Most High was Present Physically Manifested and Spirtually Manifested in His Holy Divine Glory in His Holy of Holies with Holy Saint Aaron serving Him and Holy Saint Ezra.

    Then in our Lord Jesus Holy Divine Will and in His Holy Divine Timing you can "receive" our Lord Jesus Christ into your heart in Unity with Him, praying The Holy Rosary and focussing on Jesus, His Life, His Sorrows, His Bitter Passion, His Sufferings to receive Jesus into your heart - sacrifice more of your time praying and talking to Jesus than studying.

    Be humble and trusting in and of our Lord Jesus Christ just as these little ones were trusting in Jesus and Holy Mother Mary during Jesus' own Holy Divine Appearance to them in India not long ago.

    Our Lord Jesus Christ gifted you with Holy Spirit in God The Most High - pray and ask Jesus and Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment to reignite and illuminate your heart Soul mind

    Since then Holy Mother Mary has appeared arriving in Bangladesh off a plane near Her Holy Divine Statue as it was being unloaded. That photo taken by a passenger has not yet been released to the public as far as I am aware.

    A group of school children in the state of Kerala, India, are claiming they saw the Blessed Virgin Mary under the altar when they went pray at church.

    On September 23, a Hindu girl who attended school at St. Ambrose parish in Edavanakkad, claims she was having pain in one of her ears. After going into church and putting holy water in her ear, she claimed she was healed.

    She told her friends several days later of the healing, and Ambrosiya, her only Catholic friend, volunteered to lead them in a Rosary of thanksgiving in church during lunch.


    On the way, they claim to have seen an image of Our Lord in the sky and went into church, praying the holy name of Jesus.

    When they began the Rosary, they claimed Our Lady appeared to them "beneath" the altar and told them they would someday go to Heaven. They also claimed to be able to detect the heavy scent of jasmine, which symbolizes purity in Indian culture.

    [​IMG]Father Merton D'Silva, the parish priest, questioned each child and submitted his findings to the bishop of the Roman Catholic archdiocese of Verapoly that has decided to "wait and see" before any further investigation or comment.

    Since the alleged event, hundreds of people have been flocking to the parish with many people claiming to be healed after praying the Rosary there.

    On October 3, the children again claimed to see Our Lady in the church and the hundreds of people in attendance claim to have smelled a strong scent of jasmine.

    Kerala is the Indian state with the highest ratio of Catholics, approximately 18 percent of the population. India has about 20 million Catholics, equaling only about 1.55 percent of the total population. Despite that, however, it has the highest number of Catholics in Asia after the Philippines.

    Saint Thomas the Apostle traveled to Kerala in south-east India, a common Jewish merchant stop in ancient times and spread the Gospel there, eventually being martyred.

    A few
     
  19. Angeldove97

    Angeldove97 In the Lord, my labor is not in vain Supporter

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    As a Catholic - I highly suggest that you start meeting with your priest to discuss your concerns. If you are truly confused, concerned, and worried about teachings in the Church, ask if you can meet with him or another priest or a person who they know understands the teachings of the Church - see if you can do a weekly or bi-weekly Bible study and discussion time. There are Biblical reasons, based on sound theology and Tradition from the earliest Christians for what we believe in. I caution you that "any church is fine" mentality might just take you away from the Church Christ has established on this earth.
     
  20. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    1. Yes these Practices were typical of every Pagan and ungodly people during that time. Had the Catholic Church adhered to the doctrine of Christ they would not have done violence to any man for any reason but would have instead died for the name of Christ before trying to defend themselves(or anyone else) with violence.

    2. The Catholic Church still holds to the same doctrine of Violence, even if they made a no torture amendment it is the same doctrine that contradicts the non violent doctrine preached by Christ and every single one of the Apostles.

    3. And Yes I am going to defend the Anabaptist's because regardless of what a single group of misguided people (who only called themselves Anabaptists) did were in no way a representation of the Anabaptist movement because these people were Munsterites not Anapatists. Anabaptists were non violent. The only reason these Munsterites were allowed to deceive so many people into falling away from Anabaptist Non violent doctrine was because the Catholic Church(Along with the Lutherans) had killed most of the Church leaders at the time. Saying they are the same is the same as me saying the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church are the same group. Do you deny the extreme persecution and slaughter of the Waldensians as well?

    If you would like to take this discussion somewhere else I would be more than happy to discus it with you. I would rather not take up anymore space on a page supposed to be devoted to Advising a man who is confused about the word and what to do.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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