Confused which is the true church

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God does not dwell in structures brick and stone but the hearts of men. The house of God are all people who are born again. The true church are everyone who have died with Christ and have been raised with Christ.

COOL YES AMEN HALLELUYAH ! This cuts thru mountains of paperwork, arguments, debates, and false teachings !

 

[Rescued One]

I have been born again and accepted Jesus Christ to my life 6 years ago. I am Catholic btw. Since that time while reading bible I found some contradictions with catholic teachings or confusion. I found that for me it's no difference in what church I am as I think The most important thing is our relationship with Jesus ,but not what church we attend. But also when I start reading bible I get confused with Catholic Church and i feel bad not knowing where is true anymore. It makes me feel like I don't belong neither in Catholic or other churches. I been studying in Vatican theology for a year,but still haven't mad me more clear although it does tract a catholic church as being one of the first and oldest churches ,but trough history there was some bad times where some teachings might changed..Where is the truth some one please help.

God bless you! Don't be afraid if you love Jesus and are learning how He wants you to live (the answers are in the Bible). I was in the Mormon church and they say that their church is the only true church. I love the Triune God and I've never regretted leaving Mormonism! Now Jesus is more important to me and I have peace like never before.

 

[Mountainmike]

Following the Lord doesnt require one to be catholic. The fact that you are promoting a church rather than the Word shows that you lack understanding.

Not so.
You put the cart in front of the horse.
I chose a church because it follows the word and apostolic teaching, and indeed from history is the church Jesus founded, not one of th man made creations of mediaeval times or later. Jesus created a church " upon this rock" remember? which scripture says is the " foundation of truth" which it states is the " household of God" which we know from OT means physical church, not just a spiritual association.

As for " following the word" without tradition and authority ( of the church) you cannot know what scripture means without the church - which is why there are thousands of flavours of Protestantism and a maze of conflicting Protestant doctrines, they can't all be right or more than a few of them. They disagree with each other on almost all fundamentals and almost every aspect of doctrine.

It is easy to know if you follow the word. Test against early church apostolic teachings. I ask you the same question. Do you have bishops in demonstrable apostolic succession presiding over a valid Eucharist of real flesh? If you don't you are NOT following apostolic teaching, in that case from John who wrote John 6 - see it in Ignatius.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Rock is Jesus, and Faith in Him; trusting in men falls down.

Jesus says test everything against the Word, not the other way around.

ABBA, Father Yahweh Creator, is pleased to reveal the Understanding of Salvation to little children , and Jesus Says directly He HIDES it from the educated.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Following the Lord doesnt require one to be catholic. The fact that you are promoting a church rather than the Word shows that you lack understanding.

Yes, one of the most common mistakes on earth.

 

[Mountainmike]

I can only repeat catholic doctrine. "Extra ecclesial nulla salus" does not mean automatic loss of salvation

Indeed in the catechism, quoting Lumen Gentium it makes it clear:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation"

Read it. You might learn something.

Is our OP in that category? Possibly. Many cradle Catholics never knew their faith properly. " Lord, forgive them, they know not what they do". As someone who came from outside - Protestant and evangelical - I found far better answers from others who made the journey home, than those who were cradle Catholics who were taught little of why they believe what they do.

It is those who knowingly and wilfully oppose church and gospel ( indeed those who seek to persuade others to do so - another good reason for study before criticise) who clearly risk salvation: but even then the church will hasten to add it is our Lords decision, and on his grace alone it rests.

I can only suggest again, you let catholics explain catholic doctrine. It does not help that it is repeatedly misrepresented by those outside who know little about it.

Or indeed blanket statements left undefended such as yours questioning the historicity of the church, I notice you still have not answered any of the points I made defending your first statement against RCC!

Not true what?

That the thread creator stated in post 11 that his church (which from the OP is Catholic) is telling him he will lose his salvation if he attends a protestant church?

And NOT ONE Catholic, which appear in plentiful supply in this thread, has disagreed and told the person it's untrue and that the Vatican isn't teaching this...

So, before you judge me for assuming this is the teaching, perhaps you should spend more time explaining to the thread creator how he is not in danger of eternal damnation if he spends some time with the protestants.

But its apparent no Catholic is willing to do that, so yes, that does leave the rest of us fairly certain on the Catholic position on that matter - and a little worried about the OP.

Before you call ME a liar why don't YOU go read post 11.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I can only repeat catholic doctrine.

Why ?

 

[Mountainmike]

Why ?

When it is wrongly contradicted.

Catholics don't prosyletize.
But correcting frequent , indeed endless misrepresentations of catholicism by those who fail to understand it before criticize, is our duty.

It is of course an irony, that Catholicism is essentially fixed for two thousand years, so can be represented as a catechism. Yet gets attacked for all sorts of things it does not believe!

Whilst Protestant doctrine is so variable and drifting even within the Same denomination that it is hard to understand what it believes, let alone criticise it!
Not to mention non denoms who essentially mix and match bits they like.
" As many doctrines as heads" said Luther,

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When it is wrongly contradicted.

Catholics don't prosyletize.
But correcting frequent , indeed endless misrepresentations of catholicism by those who fail to understand it before criticize, is our duty.

Why not lean on God's Understanding instead of any man's or your own understanding ?
(as God says to) (not only the correct duty, but straight from God)

 

[Mountainmike]

Why not lean on God's Understanding instead of any man's or your own understanding ?
(as God says to) (not only the correct duty, but straight from God)

I rely on God's understanding as ministered by Jesus through his apostles, given to his church to hand down.

Not endless differences of ( man made) opinion of what scripture ( so God) may mean, because Protestants try to divorce the words from the meaning handed by tradition and authority, so inevitably disagree on every aspect of doctrine. " as many doctrines as heads"

That's what started my journey home.
How can the same church( my case Anglican) have several different views on the Eucharist masquerading as high and low church views, all the way from real presence to symbolic depending on who you asked

So I went back...to ask:
What did the church taught by apostles believe and teach.
A journey that leads inevitably back to Rome.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think it is better and more true to trust God than man, as God's Word says to.
Otherwise, if/ when / man makes a mistake, it is passed on, with
potentially very serious consequences.

Jesus is perfectly faithful and with no mistakes as the shepherd. He says His sheep hear His Voice and follow Him, and will not follow another.
Since He is Perfect, and right, I think it is best to do as He says.

 

[Mountainmike]

The problem is you rely on your own personal interpretation of God's Word, even if that conflicts with what the custodians of the true meaning, the apostles, and what they visibly handed down to early fathers. Unless you have the right meaning, you only have words, not the word of God in scripture.

On your analogy " his sheep" hear lots of different words because from baptism to eucharist, salvation to priesthood, morality and everything else... because Protestants believe it means so many diffderent things. And all swear blind their version is right!

So the question is by what authority you know your personal,understanding is right when it disagrees with so many others who also claim to have discerned the spirit?

Turns out, Jesus has got that base covered.

When he gave the power to " bind and loose" - that is resolve doctrinal disputes to his church as apostles and successors ( which is the authority of councils by you have a New Testament canon) - which power he also gave to Peter alone with the inherited office of keys , and also chief pastor role " tend my sheep"

The power to " bind and loose" is why the church is the " foundation of truth"

.

I think it is better and more true to trust God than man, as God's Word says to.
Otherwise, if/ when / man makes a mistake, it is passed on, with
potentially very serious consequences.

Jesus is perfectly faithful and with no mistakes as the shepherd. He says His sheep hear His Voice and follow Him, and will not follow another.
Since He is Perfect, and right, I think it is best to do as He says.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The problem is you rely on your own personal interpretation of God's Word, even if that conflicts with what the custodians of the true meaning, the apostles, and what they visibly handed down to early fathers. Unless you have the right meaning, you only have words, not the word of God in scripture.

Never. That is directly a false witness for you to post. - Rather,
As Jesus says, I never rely on my own understanding, but on His.
He is faithful and true. He is honest, and He is right.

He says the Father in heaven is the only one who can grant anyone the right meaning/ the true understanding of Scripture, and I believe Him, and He is always right.

 

[Mountainmike]

You fail to answer the issue.
There are many just as you that believe " their interpretation" is that of Jesus. The problem is they all disagree on what that interpretation is. Even on basics like salvation and baptism.

Take one.. I do not know which side of OSAS / saved but can lose it/ not saved till the end you are on ( nor is the answer important for this) - what is important is that there are people who disagree with you who are just as sure that Jesus is on " their side" of the argument as you are that he is on " your side". The question is... which of you are on Jesus's side! You cannot all be right.

For you to answer not me... by what authority do you say you are right, ( so others are wrong) when they claim exactly the same.

Jesus gave you the answer. The power to " bind and loose" on doctrine, which is why the church is the "foundation of truth" and scripture without tradition and authority to interpret it corectly ,is not the word of God. Indeed without the authority of the church you would not have a New Testament canon.

Never. That is directly a false witness for you to post. - Rather,
As Jesus says, I never rely on my own understanding, but on His.
He is faithful and true. He is honest, and He is right.

He says the Father in heaven is the only one who can grant anyone the right meaning/ the true understanding of Scripture, and I believe Him, and He is always right.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I can only repeat catholic doctrine. "Extra ecclesial nulla salus" does not mean automatic loss of salvation

Indeed in the catechism, quoting Lumen Gentium it makes it clear:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation"

Read it. You might learn something.

Is our OP in that category? Possibly. Many cradle Catholics never knew their faith properly. " Lord, forgive them, they know not what they do". As someone who came from outside - Protestant and evangelical - I found far better answers from others who made the journey home, than those who were cradle Catholics who were taught little of why they believe what they do.

It is those who knowingly and wilfully oppose church and gospel ( indeed those who seek to persuade others to do so - another good reason for study before criticise) who clearly risk salvation: but even then the church will hasten to add it is our Lords decision, and on his grace alone it rests.

I can only suggest again, you let catholics explain catholic doctrine. It does not help that it is repeatedly misrepresented by those outside who know little

The explanation should have been clearly explained to the Catholic in question who was being told he would lose his salvation - not me.

 

[Liza B.]

I am not native speaker we have bible in my country language but for some reason I don't like reading it in my language for me it seems not very good translation or I just prefer more in English because it's more clear,but my English is not perfect so sometimes it's not easy to understand everything perfectly. I been to other churches before to Anglican,baptist and other. I liked there I see better community and I found more similar people who have been born again. In my church it teaches If you leave the church you are fallen away and there is no salvation outside of the church at least that's what Vatican teaches.So there is also fear for leaving.If I leave I would feel like betraying Jesus

No, that is not so. Jesus is the head of the Church--He is the Savior, He has the say. Not a body of men. You absolutely can be in another Christian church and be saved. I pray you will continue to follow Him and read the Bible. God bless you.

 

[NW82]

I have been born again and accepted Jesus Christ to my life 6 years ago. I am Catholic btw. Since that time while reading bible I found some contradictions with catholic teachings or confusion. I found that for me it's no difference in what church I am as I think The most important thing is our relationship with Jesus ,but not what church we attend. But also when I start reading bible I get confused with Catholic Church and i feel bad not knowing where is true anymore. It makes me feel like I don't belong neither in Catholic or other churches. I been studying in Vatican theology for a year,but still haven't mad me more clear although it does tract a catholic church as being one of the first and oldest churches ,but trough history there was some bad times where some teachings might changed..Where is the truth some one please help.

The reason you are finding contradictions in Catholic doctrine is because Catholicism doesn't specifically teach the bible. Catholiscm also teaches Catholic tradition, dogma, opinion, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This sort of thing is what Christ warned about, Matthew 15:3-20, Mark 7:3-9, Luke 6:1-11, and Matthew 23:1-3.

 

[W2L]

Not so.
You put the cart in front of the horse.
I chose a church because it follows the word and apostolic teaching, and indeed from history is the church Jesus founded, not one of th man made creations of mediaeval times or later. Jesus created a church " upon this rock" remember? which scripture says is the " foundation of truth" which it states is the " household of God" which we know from OT means physical church, not just a spiritual association.

As for " following the word" without tradition and authority ( of the church) you cannot know what scripture means without the church - which is why there are thousands of flavours of Protestantism and a maze of conflicting Protestant doctrines, they can't all be right or more than a few of them. They disagree with each other on almost all fundamentals and almost every aspect of doctrine.

It is easy to know if you follow the word. Test against early church apostolic teachings. I ask you the same question. Do you have bishops in demonstrable apostolic succession presiding over a valid Eucharist of real flesh? If you don't you are NOT following apostolic teaching, in that case from John who wrote John 6 - see it in Ignatius.

Your own church has denominations that dont agree as well, so please dont act like it doesnt. Also, its actually easy to understand the Lord. Love fulfills the law. Its that easy. Catholicism has made it hard but its not in reality.

 

[Albion]

We need to be addressing what our inquirer asked us of us.

 

[W2L]

We need to be addressing what our inquirer asked us of us.

The OP wants to know the truth.