Confession ...

[Mama Kidogo]

I have difficulty discussing this Catholic view, because it is so completely the opposite of how I understand Jesus.

But that's what makes the world go 'round, I guess.

Err....Orthodox view. But speaking of a Catholic view; How do you reconcile MoreCoffee's posting of the passage from Hebrews if we are PRE-saved from all our future sins? Seems something isn't adding up here.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The wrath of The Lamb.

There you go again, stretching my mind into the opposite direction.

Not this this is a joking matter, not at all.

 

[Willie T]

Really?

Maybe you are reacting to a certain portion of the post? Yes, the opening sentence. If you are to read the rest of the post, it would seem that it is intended ,by the poster, to be read with that first sentence as an agreed upon assumption. I can't do that any more than I can vote for a political bill with something objectionable tacked onto it.

But I can relate to sin as being something that grieves God and shows some disregard for Him. If not as an adulterous wife, even the example you gave earlier of the prodigal son?

If we deliberately sin, we know it grieves God. We love Him, and if we think about it, we are sorry we did something to so disregard Him. Right?

I know the times when I have really been struck by something I did, right to my heart, it wasn't because I was afraid I was going to hell because of it. It was because I saw how ugly what I had done was in God's sight, and I was so sorry for having grieved Him in that way. Just the understanding of something like that naturally brings repentance, I think ... not that we reason with ourselves that "hey that really was a sin, I am supposed to repent" but that instant, heart-wrenching moment when you see you just stabbed at the heart of someone you love, who loves you, and you can't help but be sorry and never, ever want to do it again.

(In most of this discussion I have been thinking of those minor sins I try to keep a "short list" on ... getting a bit miffed because someone cut me off in traffic, etc. But in this case, I'm thinking of a selfish, deliberate sin that we choose.)

......

 

[Albion]

I have difficulty discussing this Catholic view, because it is so completely the opposite of how I understand Jesus..

I know how you feel. Not only is salvation deemed a "journey," meaning a hope only, but by that POV it can be lost after a lifetime of holiness and faithfulness by a moment's transgression...and I am not referring to any renouncing the faith there, but just committing a single sin.

What a depressing way of apprehending the meaning of the Cross.

 

[Willie T]

There you go again, stretching my mind into the opposite direction.

Not this this is a joking matter, not at all.

Be careful. Some people call you a LIAR if you say they are displaying humor, then they <REPORT> you for harassing them.

No one here, of course.

 

[Willie T]

Err....Orthodox view. But speaking of a Catholic view; How do you reconcile MoreCoffee's posting of the passage from Hebrews if we are PRE-saved from all our future sins? Seems something isn't adding up here.

What's the official name of the "Orthodox" church?

Ask Coffee. I don't write his/her??? posts.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Really?

Maybe you are reacting to a certain portion of the post?

But I can relate to sin as being something that grieves God and shows some disregard for Him. If not as an adulterous wife, even the example you gave earlier of the prodigal son?

If we deliberately sin, we know it grieves God. We love Him, and if we think about it, we are sorry we did something to so disregard Him. Right?

I know the times when I have really been struck by something I did, right to my heart, it wasn't because I was afraid I was going to hell because of it. It was because I saw how ugly what I had done was in God's sight, and I was so sorry for having grieved Him in that way. Just the understanding of something like that naturally brings repentance, I think ... not that we reason with ourselves that "hey that really was a sin, I am supposed to repent" but that instant, heart-wrenching moment when you see you just stabbed at the heart of someone you love, who loves you, and you can't help but be sorry and never, ever want to do it again.

(In most of this discussion I have been thinking of those minor sins I try to keep a "short list" on ... getting a bit miffed because someone cut me off in traffic, etc. But in this case, I'm thinking of a selfish, deliberate sin that we choose.)

I'm interested in this 'minor sin" concept and thinking i might understand your meaning. Are you speaking of non-deliberate sins or sins not unto death? (yes there is such and yes it's in scripture) Or something entirely different.
I'm unsure because of your example. When I get cut off in traffic and blow that mental gasket, the words and tone leaving me are very deliberate.sometimes i'll even add to it by excusing myself because my daughter is in the car. and then...alas...I ride up beside the 100 year old woman who is even more rattled than I am and realize that what she did was not intentional unlike my response.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, the opening sentence. If you are to read the rest of the post, it would seem that it is intended ,by the poster, to be read with that first sentence as an agreed upon assumption. I can't do that any more than I can vote for a political bill with something objectionable tacked onto it.

Gotcha. I thought that might be the case, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for the explanation.

And yes, I tend to take things down into bits. It's just something that has been working for me in a variety of ways (though then I have to put them all back together). I didn't mean to imply anything about you, or about Mama Kidogo, btw.

 

[cerette]

It does seem a logical danger to me - it seems that anyone who is trusting in their own works/righteousness for justification as opposed to trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross for forgiveness - well if you trust in one OR the other, then it seems to me that you gave up trusting in Christ.

)

What does the "OR the other" refer to in your post?

Well, if you believe that you are justified by grace and not any own merits, then it would be quite hard to say that "falling from grace" is compatible with believing it is 100% grace.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know how you feel. Not only is salvation deemed a "journey," meaning a hope only, but by that POV it can be lost after a lifetime of holiness and faithfulness by a moment's transgression...and I am not referring to any renouncing the faith there, but just committing a single sin.

What a depressing way of apprehending the meaning of the Cross.

I don't wish to stir up any trouble, but is that an accurate way of describing any of the beliefs we are discussing? I'm asking honestly, because I was not aware of it being so?

I was in a church once (or twice) that taught that way. They were very legalistic pentecostal types of churches. I let that thought run around in my mind for a week or so maybe, and as a fairly new Christian still.

To the point that I could be living in Him, but someone does something foolish on the road one day, and I get miffed at the person, but they end up causing a car crash, and I die in it ... then I go to hell because at the last second I got upset with someone, and no time to repent and confess and ask forgiveness at the end.

I don't see God as standing up there with a checklist, being that petty and ready to strike us off. If He were, why would He have ever sacrificed so much in the first place?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

What's the official name of the "Orthodox" church?

Ask Coffee. I don't write his/her??? posts.

Mine is The Greek Orthodox Church of America now . Seems more than a few confuse us with Eastern Catholics.
I'm not asking about your view of MCs opinion. I'm asking how you fit that passage from Hebrews into your theology. Especially the very first sentence. this is what he posted;

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, and again: The Lord will judge his people.
Hebrews 10:26-30

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm interested in this 'minor sin" concept and thinking i might understand your meaning. Are you speaking of non-deliberate sins or sins not unto death? (yes there is such and yes it's in scripture) Or something entirely different.
I'm unsure because of your example. When I get cut off in traffic and blow that mental gasket, the words and tone leaving me are very deliberate.sometimes i'll even add to it by excusing myself because my daughter is in the car. and then...alas...I ride up beside the 100 year old woman who is even more rattled than I am and realize that what she did was not intentional unlike my response.

Ah, no, I pretty much no longer blow any mental gaskets.

I used to do that, habitually, and yes, with murder in my heart I would have to admit, before I cried out to God and found myself changed. That part was simply, instantly, wiped out of me.

Now I will get mildly irritated, is usually the best way to describe. I don't curse, hit my horn (unless I use the horn to get someone's attention to prevent an accident). Most likely within 5 minutes, I've forgotten all about it. Usually I pray for them (this is not from any great part of my own character, but more a discipline I do in order to make SURE that I don't get too upset) ... and I pray that they arrive safely and they get their attention back on the road, or be careful if they're in a hurry, and they don't hurt anyone else, etc.

I mean that kind of sin. Because yes, I can get momentarily irritated.

 

[Albion]

I don't wish to stir up any trouble, but is that an accurate way of describing any of the beliefs we are discussing? I'm asking honestly, because I was not aware of it being so?

That is the Roman Catholic way of looking at things. I admit that I was replying to Willie's comment which in turn was a comment on something that Mama Kidogo had written...and all of that is probably a sideshow to the purpose of your thread.

I was in a church once (or twice) that taught that way. They were very legalistic pentecostal types of churches. I let that thought run around in my mind for a week or so maybe, and as a fairly new Christian still.

To the point that I could be living in Him, but someone does something foolish on the road one day, and I get miffed at the person, but they end up causing a car crash, and I die in it ... then I go to hell because at the last second I got upset with someone, and no time to repent and confess and ask forgiveness at the end.

I don't see God as standing up there with a checklist, being that petty and ready to strike us off. If He were, why would He have ever sacrificed so much in the first place?

I agree with you completely about that, but I can never forget growing up as a Catholic child and having exactly that scenario drummed into our terrified heads daily by the nuns.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[~Anastasia~]

What does the "OR the other" refer to in your post?

Well, if you believe that you are justified by grace and not any own merits, then it would be quite hard to say that "falling from grace" is compatible with believing it is 100% grace.

I was really getting too extreme and too theoretical in my example.

I meant someone who CHOSE to put their trust in their ability to keep the law - in their own righteousness. And so in that case, that person would (logically) no longer be trusting in grace received through Christ's sacrifice.

Totally theoretical. And not at ALL what I believe. Sorry if it was confusing.

 

[Willie T]

Mine is The Greek Orthodox Church of America now . Seems more than a few confuse us with Eastern Catholics.
I'm not asking about your view of MCs opinion. I'm asking how you fit that passage from Hebrews into your theology. Especially the very first sentence. this is what he posted;

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, and again: The Lord will judge his people.
Hebrews 10:26-30

Sorry.... You display the label icon of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, so I found myself thinking that was your faith.

 

[stan1953]

Is it your view that unconfessed sin stands between a Christian and God in such a way that it severs the relationship, breaks the covenant, places the person with the unconfessed sin outside of the body of Christ, the household of faith?

It can.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I know how you feel. Not only is salvation deemed a "journey," meaning a hope only, but by that POV it can be lost after a lifetime of holiness and faithfulness by a moment's transgression...and I am not referring to any renouncing the faith there, but just committing a single sin.

What a depressing way of apprehending the meaning of the Cross.

If that were the mindset I'd object as well. you are leaving too much out. like understanding that He is faithful to forgive us our sins and that He is also intent on finishing the work he began in us.
Now tell me, do you read Hebrews 10:26 as meaning blessed assurance and not to concerning our self with sins? How many sins do you consider we are given a get out of jail free card on?
BTW a journey is not a hope only. It's a life lived with a destination and purpose. Now how could something be lost that isn't finished yet. I'm pretty sure the judgement has not yet happened. Guess I'd make a poor preterist.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That is the Roman Catholic way of looking at things. I admit that I was replying to Willie's comment which in turn was a comment on something that Mama Kidogo had written...and all of that is probably a sideshow to the purpose of your thread.



I agree with you completely about that, but I can never forget growing up as a Catholic child and having exactly that scenario drummed into our terrified heads daily by the nuns.

Not a sideshow btw, I'm interested.

But is that really representative of the Catholic beliefs?

Not that I know them that well, but while it seems they do believe there are sins that can cost salvation, I don't think a momentary moment of irritation would be one of them.

Is it possible that the nuns were making a stronger example than they should have done? I have talked to two people at least who mentioned having to take steps because their children were being taught too strongly in this direction (Catholic persons with children in Catholic classes.).

And of course I don't know all the details. I'm not trying to exhaustively understand Catholic doctrine, just compare it alongside others on some points.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The concept of falling from grace is not one I ponder as I don't view salvation as an event but rather a journey. I mean you can't fall from a place you are not yet at.
I see this more along the mind that we either love God (and show it back through our actions) or we hate God
(and show that through our actions). I view sin just like I view adultery against one's husband. Does adultery show a brides love for her husband? Of coarse not. At the very best it shows an utter disregard for one's husband. That equals hate. But hate can be overcome by love. That is repentance. No Mosiac Law, no set of written rules. Just love. What we do that is seen by some as ceremony is learning not to sin and depending on the Lord to help us with our selfishness. A wayward child returning home.
Believe it or not, most do not repent to avoid hell. They repent coming to the reality that they have grieved their first love and broken his heart. It's not about us but about God.

I have difficulty discussing this Catholic view, because it is so completely the opposite of how I understand Jesus.

But that's what makes the world go 'round, I guess.

Mama Kidogo is an Orthodox Christian, not Catholic.