Confession ...

[Willie T]

I think on going back to the law for justification...... What we do in that respect cannot change what Jesus did. We may think it will somehow, but it won't. It can't.

But I think on that final day, God will say, "Why did you spend all those years struggling to achieve what I already let my son die for you to have for nothing.... just the way I took care of the Israelites all the way from Egypt to Mt Sinai, where they, then, chose to do just what you chose to do.... try to earn my already free gift by their own labors."

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes..... I would caution against the tempting draw of law. It is the milk of "Milk & Meat".

Didn't every one of the Jews already know and practice all the "laws" to secure and maintain their salvation? That was the "Milk" they had to learn to move on from, into the "Meat" of the scary realm of just simply trusting that Jesus already did (and would keep on doing) what they had been doing for themselves all those years.

Oh, my goodness, I certainly don't see the "law" as having a tempting draw!!!

I see it as a dark, impossible burden, that would condemn me in no time. Even just counting the 10 commandments - if we look at them as Jesus explained, that even our thoughts are commission of sin - I would sadly not remain "perfect" for long, I am sure.

And if we look at the WHOLE law - I've read quite a bit of the supplementary stuff - not only in the Bible, but the bajillion rules that are the "how to follow" what's in the Bible --- I might as well not draw a breath. I'd be in violation of that law all day, every day.

No, not tempting at all for me!!!

I am much more pleased knowing that God loves me, that Jesus died for me, that I am in Him, and my sins are forgiven! That is my only possible hope, and I cling to Him!

I guess the only disagreement we see in this is that I continue to ask for forgiveness.

Quite often in the prayer the Lord taught His disciples (forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors) ... but I do also take time out to reflect if I need to ask forgiveness, and sometimes as soon as I do something I know I should not have, and I agree right away and ask forgiveness.

I don't think those little things I do often are going to cost my salvation. I just think it's a good idea to get them out in the open and confess them in prayer and ask forgiveness. I'm not sure exactly what the consequence would be (if any) if I let those little things go. I just feel as though I shouldn't.

It's like when a kid accidentally knocks over his milk because he was being careless and looks up and says, "Sorry, Mom". I don't think the kid was in danger of being disowned.

But I guess that's all I know about it.

 

[Albion]

I think on going back to the law for justification...... What we do in that respect cannot change what Jesus did. We may think it will somehow, but it won't. It can't.

But I think on that final day, God will say, "Why did you spend all those years struggling to achieve what I already let my son die for you to have for nothing.... just the way I took care of the Israelites all the way from Egypt to Mt Sinai, where they, then, chose to do just what you chose to do.... try to earn my already free gift by their own labors."

I get the basic point, but I don't think we can go this far, Willie. While I believe that the sinner is secure in the Lord, we all do--at least occasionally--commit sins that we could have decided against. We do wrong. To have repentance for them and to tell God of our regret, followed by some reassurance through the church that God forgives that, as well as sins in general, makes logical sense EVEN IF THERE WERE NOT ample Biblical backing for such. It's hardly any different from confessing your sins to a friend--which we all know that the Bible advises us to do--and having him say that he accepts the apology. Sure, we could function without the friend's reply, but we feel better having it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think on going back to the law for justification...... What we do in that respect cannot change what Jesus did. We may think it will somehow, but it won't. It can't.

But I think on that final day, God will say, "Why did you spend all those years struggling to achieve what I already let my son die for you to have for nothing.... just the way I took care of the Israelites all the way from Egypt to Mt Sinai, where they, then, chose to do just what you chose to do.... try to earn my already free gift by their own labors."

You may very well be right. The whole "fall from grace" phrase worries me though. And this is all just theoretical, for me. I have no desire to try to justify myself, as though I even could.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I think on going back to the law for justification...... What we do in that respect cannot change what Jesus did. We may think it will somehow, but it won't. It can't.

But I think on that final day, God will say, "Why did you spend all those years struggling to achieve what I already let my son die for you to have for nothing.... just the way I took care of the Israelites all the way from Egypt to Mt Sinai, where they, then, chose to do just what you chose to do.... try to earn my already free gift by their own labors."

Confession has nothing to do with earning anything.It's coming to our senses and arising from the pig pen and returning to the Father expecting nothing more than a chance to be his slave. And yet we are received as his child and heir with grace beyond our comprehension.
Confession is also not about OT law which ended with death. It's about reconciliation after acting the harlot.

 

[fhansen]

I think on going back to the law for justification...... What we do in that respect cannot change what Jesus did. We may think it will somehow, but it won't. It can't.

But I think on that final day, God will say, "Why did you spend all those years struggling to achieve what I already let my son die for you to have for nothing.... just the way I took care of the Israelites all the way from Egypt to Mt Sinai, where they, then, chose to do just what you chose to do.... try to earn my already free gift by their own labors."

I think on the last day He'll say things such as:
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
or:
‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’Matt 25:34-36 & 40, 25:41-43 & 45

 

[Willie T]

I think I'm beginning to see your confusion. Are you possibly thinking that "repentance" is the act of abstaining from a sin?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think I'm beginning to see your confusion. Are you possibly thinking that "repentance" is the act of abstaining from a sin?

One repents from sin by turning away from it and towards God and that implies a desire to avoid repeating the sins one is repenting. Surely that is explicit in scripture and needs no extra explanations, right?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think I'm beginning to see your confusion. Are you possibly thinking that "repentance" is the act of abstaining from a sin?

Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping up completely.

If that was meant for me, not exactly.

I think repentance is deciding you were wrong in what you did, and determining in your heart you want to try not to do it again.

It seems to me that repentance should precede confession and asking for forgiveness. If you ask to be forgiven while believing what you did wasn't wrong anyway - you are essentially lying in your request. And if you ask for forgiveness while planning to do it again, you are also lying and being insincere, and presuming on grace (or trying to - I don't think it would work if we're talking about God's forgiveness).

I could possible have used a wrong word somewhere though.

 

[cerette]

I find this to be a the heart of it all.

You made a good point, Cerette, that the unrepentant sinners who never accept God's forgiveness in the first place and so are the "unsaved" ... they are not forgiven.

Oh, darn, the way I worded that actually walked me into the opposite corner. LOL!!! (Trying to keep all positions in mind when I word things makes it awkward sometimes!)

Hmmm, I'm making a point to myself now.

I know some teach God forgives, and we must accept (by not refusing) the forgiveness. I think that is your own position, Cerette? Ah, but then does sin after initial justification only require "acceptance" of forgiveness, rather than actual pursuit of it, the same way in which you would not say people actively pursue their relationship with God? But I think maybe ... you would say the first work is God's alone, and the sanctification that follows requires man's cooperation - so that would be your answer to this question?

Ok, what I MEANT to get at before I put myself in that awkward corner ...

Is that if one believes we must come to God and seek initial forgiveness ... then that is necessary and those who don't are never forgiven. But the follow up is - do we need to continue to seek forgiveness after that?

I guess I would say yes - and how can we ignore 1 John 1:9?

It seems (and I'm not picking on you guys, just trying to identify positions!) but it seems that Willie and Steeno (not picking on you guys!) are maintaining that it is no longer necessary to ask forgiveness anymore? Do I understand you right?

Willie, I am having a hard time understanding your point that you believe in seeking forgiveness from a man (the lie you mentioned about correcting at church last night - btw I admire your intention to do that, and I'm very sorry to hear that you are having to struggle with some situations as far as your health and limitations from that) ... but I'm a little at a loss to understand seeking forgiveness from a man and not from God. I think I see your different positions. But a sin against any man is also a sin against God. (Of course the man did not already forgive you, so I do think I see what you are saying.) It's just hard for me to understand.

Thanks, everyone.

I'll try to give a short answer to some of your thoughts..
While on this earth, we will have a daily struggle between our sinful flesh and between the "new man" in us. A Christian has enemies: Satan, the world, and our own sinful flesh. With very much the help of God we are able to resist those enemies, and hopefully more and more so as we grow in our sanctification (holiness, Christlikeness). However, we still fail, we still fall, we still sin. This is why we, even as Christians, should know that in *us*(that is, in our [sinful] flesh, there is no good. This is why we come humbly before God and confess our sins (be it in a silent confession to God, or confessing to someone else (as this thread is about)) and trust in the forgiveness Christ won on the cross.
God Himself taught us to pray "Forgive us our sins".

 

[fhansen]

One repents from sin by turning away from it and towards God and that implies a desire to avoid repeating the sins one is repenting. Surely that is explicit in scripture and needs no extra explanations, right?

Yes, conversion is to turn to God; repentance is to turn back to God once we've fallen into sin again-especially "sin that leads to death" John 5:16.

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2Pet 2:20-22

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1john 3:7-17

 

[cerette]

Fall from grace = for example, starting to trust in your own works for your salvation, rather than trusting in God's grace.
Admitting to being a sinner and confessing one's sins is not the same as abandoning God's grace. Quite the opposite really..a person who is aware of her own sinfulness and turns to God is "approaching" the very grace we don't want to fall away from.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'll try to give a short answer to some of your thoughts..
While on this earth, we will have a daily struggle between our sinful flesh and between the "new man" in us. A Christian has enemies: Satan, the world, and our own sinful flesh. With very much the help of God we are able to resist those enemies, and hopefully more and more so as we grow in our sanctification (holiness, Christlikeness). However, we still fail, we still fall, we still sin. This is why we, even as Christians, should know that in *us*(that is, in our [sinful] flesh) there is no good. This is why we come humbly before God and confess our sins (be it in a silent confession to God, or confessing to someone else (as this thread is about)) and trust in the forgiveness Christ won on the cross.

God Himself taught us to pray "Forgive us our sins".

There are not really two of us in one person or in one body. There is the self that has died with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:1-9) and there is the new creation in Christ Jesus (2Cor 5:17) the first is dead the second is alive in Christ. Yet there is struggle as you observed. In this world we do struggle for all sorts of reasons among which is the desire of the eyes and of the flesh and the pride of life (1John 2:16) and such things. These are tests and temptations that do sometimes make the faithful fall into sins (James 1:13-15).

 

[Willie T]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping up completely.

If that was meant for me, not exactly.

I think repentance is deciding you were wrong in what you did, and determining in your heart you want to try not to do it again. The Jews did this under law, already, didn't they?

It seems to me that repentance should precede confession and asking for forgiveness. If you ask to be forgiven while believing what you did wasn't wrong anyway - you are essentially lying in your request. And if you ask for forgiveness while planning to do it again, you are also lying and being insincere, and presuming on grace (or trying to - I don't think it would work if we're talking about God's forgiveness). I think they are all combined. We cannot pigeon-hole them into "This precedes that." or "This is of more importance than that." or, or, or..... <SEE: BELOW>

I could possible have used a wrong word somewhere though.

This is one of the greatest things about you that I am coming to so appreciate.

Consistently, I keep hearing you marvel at the revelation that things of the Bible (that so many of us try to establish as independent, free-standing concepts) are actually totally intertwined and interrelated precepts. Your insight in this area is amazing.

It is a rare person who understands that each separate part of God's word is simply God's word expressed a little differently than it was over in that other book. All the words mesh together to become one truth, The truth.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

One repents from sin by turning away from it and towards God and that implies a desire to avoid repeating the sins one is repenting. Surely that is explicit in scripture and needs no extra explanations, right?

That is my understanding.

 

[Steeno7]

Sorry, I'm having a hard time keeping up completely.

That's understandable. Simplify it.

Ephesians 1:7, "In Him we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace".

Colossians 1:14, "in whom we HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Are you in Him? If so, what does it say you HAVE?

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is one of the greatest things about you that I am coming to so appreciate.

Consistently, I keep hearing you marvel at the revelation that things of the Bible (that so many of us try to establish as independent, free-standing concepts) are actually totally intertwined and interrelated precepts. Your insight in this area is amazing.

It is a rare person who understands that each separate part of God's word is simply God's word expressed a little differently than it was over in that other book. All the words mesh together to become one truth, The truth.

Thanks, Willie, but I'm not seeing it as something to be congratulated over.

Yes, I am very overwhelmed by that very fact. Repeatedly.

I try to understand this, and I try to understand that - and they consistently keep bumping into one another, and understanding one is impossible if the other is rejected or taken in a very wrong way.

It's a HUGE mental exercise to try to keep it all in mind, LOL, and make any progress!

And when I take a list of verses, as the ones I posted on that Steeno gave ... and I went through and read each carefully, and the surrounding chapter(s), and tried to see what was being said overall, I found it to be overwhelming.

I did learn from it, but to arrive at the answer, or the opposite position, was not possible for me.

I don't know Willie. Again, none of these things really matters for my own salvation, as far as I can see. I may not have my theology right (lol i can guarantee you I have it wrong on multiple counts, I'm very sure now) ... but while I don't have all the answers, I know I won't live that differently or really interact with God any differently (not in any foundational way) from anything I'm questioning in my theology.

I know that I'm in Him, I know He loves me, I know that the Holy Spirit works in my life. I might not always use the right words, but He is working to complete that which He began, and I trust Him to do that.

I'm just intensely interested in all these things right now, and I'm not even positive why.

But yes, I am completely amazed at the fact that the whole of the Bible is really one long consistent message, and all parts relate - even if I can't see how yet.

 

[Willie T]

Thanks, Willie, but I'm not seeing it as something to be congratulated over.

Yes, I am very overwhelmed by that very fact. Repeatedly.

I try to understand this, and I try to understand that - and they consistently keep bumping into one another, and understanding one is impossible if the other is rejected or taken in a very wrong way.

It's a HUGE mental exercise to try to keep it all in mind, LOL, and make any progress!

And when I take a list of verses, as the ones I posted on that Steeno gave ... and I went through and read each carefully, and the surrounding chapter(s), and tried to see what was being said overall, I found it to be overwhelming.

I did learn from it, but to arrive at the answer, or the opposite position, was not possible for me.

I don't know Willie. Again, none of these things really matters for my own salvation, as far as I can see. I may not have my theology right (lol i can guarantee you I have it wrong on multiple counts, I'm very sure now) ... but while I don't have all the answers, I know I won't live that differently or really interact with God any differently (not in any foundational way) from anything I'm questioning in my theology.

I know that I'm in Him, I know He loves me, I know that the Holy Spirit works in my life. I might not always use the right words, but He is working to complete that which He began, and I trust Him to do that.

I'm just intensely interested in all these things right now, and I'm not even positive why.

But yes, I am completely amazed at the fact that the whole of the Bible is really one long consistent message, and all parts relate - even if I can't see how yet.

I think the overwhelming feeling is one of the reasons we try to compartmentalize the whole book into sections of rules. Easier to have someone sitting beside us telling us, "OK, now turn left." "Now slow down." "Now turn right.", than it is to be just given a map, and hearing, "See you at the finish line." "You can do it." "Just keep in mind how I taught you to drive."

 

[~Anastasia~]

That's understandable. Simplify it.

Ephesians 1:7, "In Him we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace".

Colossians 1:14, "in whom we HAVE redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Are you in Him? If so, what does it say you HAVE?

Thanks very much, Steeno,

In reading the passage in Ephesians - I may be wrong, but it looks as though it is really talking about the apostles, and how they were first called to be the firstfruits in order to carry out God's plan. If I have it right, of course, he did go on to address believers as a whole.

It comes back on the word "have" since you rightly capitalized it. I'll have to look into that. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have seen mistakes where doctrine is determined particularly by a verb, since it can be so tricky.

I know I preferred a few of the other verses you mentioned, which is why I made my comments on them when I posted all of them. I need to go back and look particularly carefully at a few.

Let me go back and clarify though ... your main point was that we don't need to pray and confess sins we commit, or ask forgiveness for them, because we are already forgiven? If I've misunderstood that, this becomes a rabbit trail.

Thank you so much!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think the overwhelming feeling is one of the reasons we try to compartmentalize the whole book into sections of rules. Easier to have someone sitting beside us telling us, "OK, now turn left." "Now slow down." "Now turn right.", than it is to be just given a map, and hearing, "See you at the finish line." "You can do it." "Just keep in mind how I taught you to drive."

LOL. Very good analogy.

This is what gives me my momentary bouts of envy (not that strong really, I'm not upset with anyone) ... but I see how easy it would be to simply sit back and accept what your church tells you and never question.

I think many/most (depending on the church I guess, hopefully one is not in a cult) ... but I think they can be truly saved anyway. And not having to struggle with all of this.

Then again, I generally enjoy a challenge.