Confession ...

[Willie T]

LOL. Very good analogy.

This is what gives me my momentary bouts of envy (not that strong really, I'm not upset with anyone) ... but I see how easy it would be to simply sit back and accept what your church tells you and never question.

I think many/most (depending on the church I guess, hopefully one is not in a cult) ... but I think they can be truly saved anyway. And not having to struggle with all of this.

Then again, I generally enjoy a challenge.

Yeah, I often think the people who just meet in homes are really smarter than any of us.

BUT....... Let's face it, that house church is probably one day going to turn into a bigger group... then they will rent a storefront..... then a building.... then they will draft by-laws..... then, before you know it (maybe ten years?) you just have another church in town.

Someday we can talk about how that always seems to happen. It is the quest for the radical middle ground between weird and dead, that seems so elusive.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Fall from grace = for example, starting to trust in your own works for your salvation, rather than trusting in God's grace.
Admitting to being a sinner and confessing one's sins is not the same as abandoning God's grace. Quite the opposite really..a person who is aware of her own sinfulness and turns to God is "approaching" the very grace we don't want to fall away from.

I agree with you. I guess the thing I'm not sure of is if one is "fallen from grace" does that mean one is not under God's forgiveness anymore? So condemned, if they remain that way?

It does seem a logical danger to me - it seems that anyone who is trusting in their own works/righteousness for justification as opposed to trusting in Christ's finished work on the cross for forgiveness - well if you trust in one OR the other, then it seems to me that you gave up trusting in Christ.

One who refuses to trust in Christ cannot be forgiven.

So I'm not sure if that is the logical consequence but it seems that if that's what it truly means (no longer trusting in Christ but choosing to trust in one's own righteousness) ... the person would be lost.

(Willie, this "everything being intertwined - sure makes it hard to keep my threads "on topic" sometimes! )

 

[Steeno7]

Thanks very much, Steeno,

In reading the passage in Ephesians - I may be wrong, but it looks as though it is really talking about the apostles, and how they were first called to be the firstfruits in order to carry out God's plan. If I have it right, of course, he did go on to address believers as a whole.

It comes back on the word "have" since you rightly capitalized it. I'll have to look into that. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I have seen mistakes where doctrine is determined particularly by a verb, since it can be so tricky.

I know I preferred a few of the other verses you mentioned, which is why I made my comments on them when I posted all of them. I need to go back and look particularly carefully at a few.

Let me go back and clarify though ... your main point was that we don't need to pray and confess sins we commit, or ask forgiveness for them, because we are already forgiven? If I've misunderstood that, this becomes a rabbit trail.

Thank you so much!

I am not saying not to confess, to agree with God about your sins. I am saying that we do not confess to get forgiveness. God settled the sin issue between Himself and us 2000 years ago. We are forgiven because of Christ's shed blood on the cross, and He is not coming back for a repeat performance. He died once and for all. We receive that forgiveness when we receive Him.

Our forgiveness, our redemption, our life, is in Christ. If you are in Christ you have forgiveness...you have all the forgiveness you will ever get, and all you will ever need. God bless you.

 

[fhansen]

Fall from grace = for example, starting to trust in your own works for your salvation, rather than trusting in God's grace.
Admitting to being a sinner and confessing one's sins is not the same as abandoning God's grace. Quite the opposite really..a person who is aware of her own sinfulness and turns to God is "approaching" the very grace we don't want to fall away from.

Yes, 'Apart from Him we can do nothing', including obedience.

 

[Willie T]

K,
The fact is that even the most "grace focused" among us is usually letting themselves slip into some sort of law-keeping. So, I can't see "falling from" grace to mean no longer forgiven.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yeah, I often think the people who just meet in homes are really smarter than any of us.

BUT....... Let's face it, that house church is probably one day going to turn into a bigger group... then they will rent a storefront..... then a building.... then they will draft by-laws..... then, before you know it (maybe ten years?) you just have another church in town.

Someday we can talk about how that always seems to happen. It is the quest for the radical middle ground between weird and dead, that seems so elusive.

Actually I was thinking of a bigger church when I said that - one that already has a fully developed set of doctrines.

But yes, those small churches tend to often become "real" churches.

I've been to churches that met in houses for various reasons. I actually found a HUGE advantage over one of the Methodist churches I visited last week. The pastor gave a sermon, and there was a point in my mind that was screaming to be added. Not to disagree, but it was a good exhortation, I would have thought. I just looked at it from a little different angle.

But of course, in church, you can't share things like that. But I remember one particular home church service, that reminded me so much "when you all come together, you each have ..." We all had something on our minds, we went around and shared, and it was amazing to me how well it made a cohesive message. The Holy Spirit at work, imo.

On the other hand, with no accountability, I think they are at the most risk of getting dangerously off-track, if one person has odd ideas and tends to kind of run over others who might not be well-versed in Scripture. I've known that to happen too.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am not saying not to confess, to agree with God about your sins. I am saying that we do not confess to get forgiveness. God settled the sin issue between Himself and us 2000 years ago. We are forgiven because of Christ's shed blood on the cross, and He is not coming back for a repeat performance. He died once and for all. We receive that forgiveness when we receive Him.

Our forgiveness, our redemption, our life, is in Christ. If you are in Christ you have forgiveness...you have all the forgiveness you will ever get, and all you will ever need. God bless you.

Ah, thank you for that clarification. That makes the situation very different.

Yes, I understand what you are saying.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yeah, I often think the people who just meet in homes are really smarter than any of us.

I have had association with two house-churches and I am not too sure that they were smarter than any of us. The first was short lived and became very heterodox, that is why it was short lived I think. The second was very Charismatic and quickly became the platform for the family hosting the meetings in their home. It lasted longer but it too became quite heterodox and then people left and it closed down. I can't say that my limited experience is sufficient to decide the matter but it seems to me that the track record may not be so good.

 

[~Anastasia~]

K,
The fact is that even the most "grace focused" among us is usually letting themselves slip into some sort of law-keeping. So, I can't see "falling from" grace to mean no longer forgiven.

You know, if I'm honest with myself, I think you must be right (as far as slipping into law-keeping). If you measure every such tendency as "falling from grace" then no, it can't mean no longer forgiven.

I guess I was envisioning an extreme. One who chose to let the law BE their justification, instead of Christ. But really, my extreme thought was not warranted. I was thinking in terms of theoreticals, but it wasn't practical.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's a passage in Hebrews that touches the matter of confession and forgiveness. It is one of those fearful passages that Christians ought to meditate upon some times. Not because it fills one with life and hope and all the good things that we desire for our comfort but because it is so sobering. This is the passage:

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, and again: The Lord will judge his people.
Hebrews 10:26-30
​

What we do and say in worship is vitally important. It ought to be given very careful consideration.

 

[from scratch]

Only God has the authority to forgive sins
so the Pharisees were kind of right in Mark 2:7

ofcourse since Jesus is God, He can forgive sins

you quoted John 20, but you started at 22
I think the key is one verse before at 20:21

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you."

Jesus was sent to heal the sick, preach the Good news, cast out demons, and forgive sins, to reconcile God and man
then He gives His disciples the Holy Spirit and they are sent out as He was sent out

as a Catholic, I hold very closely to the idea of Apostolic Succession, the idea that there is a continuity in the Church, a continuity of proclaiming the true Gospel, and also a physical continuity of Baptism, and the laying on of hands and blessing (this is done at confirmation, but it is also done when men become priests or bishops)

So did Jesus have people confessing to Him in the sense of confession seeking forgiveness of sins?

What is confessing one to another about sins really about? Is it so attain forgiveness or is it to hold each other accountable for our actions?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So did Jesus have people confessing to Him in the sense of confession seeking forgiveness of sins?

What is confessing one to another about sins really about? Is it so attain forgiveness or is it to hold each other accountable for our actions?

Do you think that Jesus does not know what sins a sinner is coming to confess to him? God knows everything so no confession of sins is telling God something that he does not know. Confession is about asking for forgiveness because sin has been recognised for the wickedness that it is and forgiveness is wanted.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am not saying not to confess, to agree with God about your sins. I am saying that we do not confess to get forgiveness. God settled the sin issue between Himself and us 2000 years ago. We are forgiven because of Christ's shed blood on the cross, and He is not coming back for a repeat performance. He died once and for all. We receive that forgiveness when we receive Him.

Our forgiveness, our redemption, our life, is in Christ. If you are in Christ you have forgiveness...you have all the forgiveness you will ever get, and all you will ever need. God bless you.

OK, this is one of my "Oh, DUH" moments.

1 John 1:9 says that if we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us.

You agree that we are to confess. I think so too.

My problem is that I was adding "forgiveness" to be conditional upon confession - another one of those "assumptions" that I was working from.

And I just painted myself into yet another corner. Why is it I sometimes don't see where a thought leads until I start to type it out. Maybe that's why I post so much, lol.

Anyway - I still don't see a contradiction. We confess. God forgives us. You're just saying (I think) that the forgiveness is a "given". And we just confess, because we should, but not expressly for seeking forgiveness, because we're afraid if we don't confess, we're not forgiven. ????

Ok, I had a thought, but I need to think about it some more. I'm still going to hit "submit" though because I'd be interested on input from anyone who wants to.

 

[Willie T]

So did Jesus have people confessing to Him in the sense of confession seeking forgiveness of sins?

What is confessing one to another about sins really about? Is it so attain forgiveness or is it to hold each other accountable for our actions?

I think it is to show our humanness to one another, thereby enabling (or opening an avenue) a common basis through which to understand and relate to each other.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

The concept of falling from grace is not one I ponder as I don't view salvation as an event but rather a journey. I mean you can't fall from a place you are not yet at.
I see this more along the mind that we either love God (and show it back through our actions) or we hate God
(and show that through our actions). I view sin just like I view adultery against one's husband. Does adultery show a brides love for her husband? Of coarse not. At the very best it shows an utter disregard for one's husband. That equals hate. But hate can be overcome by love. That is repentance. No Mosiac Law, no set of written rules. Just love. What we do that is seen by some as ceremony is learning not to sin and depending on the Lord to help us with our selfishness. A wayward child returning home.
Believe it or not, most do not repent to avoid hell. They repent coming to the reality that they have grieved their first love and broken his heart. It's not about us but about God.

 

[Willie T]

The concept of falling from grace is not one I ponder as I don't view salvation as an event but rather a journey. I mean you can't fall from a place you are not yet at.
I see this more along the mind that we either love God (and show it back through our actions) or we hate God
(and show that through our actions). I view sin just like I view adultery against one's husband. Does adultery show a brides love for her husband? Of coarse not. At the very best it shows an utter disregard for one's husband. That equals hate. But hate can be overcome by love. That is repentance. No Mosiac Law, no set of written rules. Just love. What we do that is seen by some as ceremony is learning not to sin and depending on the Lord to help us with our selfishness. A wayward child returning home.
Believe it or not, most do not repent to avoid hell. They repent coming to the reality that they have grieved their first love and broken his heart. It's not about us but about God.

I have difficulty discussing this Catholic view, because it is so completely the opposite of how I understand Jesus.

But that's what makes the world go 'round, I guess.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There's a passage in Hebrews that touches the matter of confession and forgiveness. It is one of those fearful passages that Christians ought to meditate upon some times. Not because it fills one with life and hope and all the good things that we desire for our comfort but because it is so sobering. This is the passage:

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgement and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? We know the one who said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay, and again: The Lord will judge his people.
Hebrews 10:26-30
​

What we do and say in worship is vitally important. It ought to be given very careful consideration.

THIS one deserves a thread of its own (and I'd be willing to guess there are probably dozens of them already). I do agree it's good to contemplate sometimes. Not for too new a Christian maybe - at least without explanation. That one had me thinking I had lost my salvation for a very short, very dark time as a babe in Christ.

But yes, it's one I had in mind when we first started in this thread to talk about falling from grace, though I saw it as being about a different kind of issue than we were discussing there.

I think this is one of the most sobering passages in the entire Bible.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The wrath of The Lamb.

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[Steeno7]

OK, this is one of my "Oh, DUH" moments.

1 John 1:9 says that if we confess, He is faithful and just to forgive us.

You agree that we are to confess. I think so too.

My problem is that I was adding "forgiveness" to be conditional upon confession - another one of those "assumptions" that I was working from.

And I just painted myself into yet another corner. Why is it I sometimes don't see where a thought leads until I start to type it out. Maybe that's why I post so much, lol.

Anyway - I still don't see a contradiction. We confess. God forgives us. You're just saying (I think) that the forgiveness is a "given". And we just confess, because we should, but not expressly for seeking forgiveness, because we're afraid if we don't confess, we're not forgiven. ????

Ok, I had a thought, but I need to think about it some more. I'm still going to hit "submit" though because I'd be interested on input from anyone who wants to.

Well, it's 1 John 1:9 that is doing it to you, and that is not directed at you.

We agree with God because it is just silly not to. He's God. It means we don't have to pretend with God or with others. We can be real. We can say to God, "yeah, You and I both know about this" whatever it may be. And God says,"right, now let me show you a better way". And we're off and running.

You can confidently go to God in your time of need to receive mercy, knowing that you have His forgiveness and acceptance.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I have difficulty discussing this Catholic view, because it is so completely the opposite of how I understand Jesus.

But that's what makes the world go 'round, I guess.

Really?

Maybe you are reacting to a certain portion of the post?

But I can relate to sin as being something that grieves God and shows some disregard for Him. If not as an adulterous wife, even the example you gave earlier of the prodigal son?

If we deliberately sin, we know it grieves God. We love Him, and if we think about it, we are sorry we did something to so disregard Him. Right?

I know the times when I have really been struck by something I did, right to my heart, it wasn't because I was afraid I was going to hell because of it. It was because I saw how ugly what I had done was in God's sight, and I was so sorry for having grieved Him in that way. Just the understanding of something like that naturally brings repentance, I think ... not that we reason with ourselves that "hey that really was a sin, I am supposed to repent" but that instant, heart-wrenching moment when you see you just stabbed at the heart of someone you love, who loves you, and you can't help but be sorry and never, ever want to do it again.

(In most of this discussion I have been thinking of those minor sins I try to keep a "short list" on ... getting a bit miffed because someone cut me off in traffic, etc. But in this case, I'm thinking of a selfish, deliberate sin that we choose.)