Confession ...

[~Anastasia~]

I am trying to reconcile things I read in Scripture, and I know there are different interpretations of these things. I would appreciate hearing different viewpoints and the reason for interpreting them that way. I really need reasons, if you know of any, because I see "what it says".

Please everyone try to be respectful. I know this question crosses denominational lines.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is NASB. The Living Bible says "if we confess our sins to Him" but all the other translations I can find say basically the same as this. I have always taken it to mean that we confess to God, and I really see no other reason to interpret this any differently.

And of course, we have OT precedence to confess to God, through the Psalms in many places:
Psalm 32:5 I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

And of course it is the Pharisees talking in verses like this, but we have several that are against Jesus such as Mark 2:7 which indicate at the least that the religious thought was that only God could forgive sins.
"Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"

And yet of course there are such as these:

James 5
14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

John 20
21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

When I read online, I find reference to Matt 16 connected to this:
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

And Matt 18 - which talks about several things, and I'm debating how much to consider as being context, and why.
5 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

To be honest, this is one I was actually not wanting to consider, but now I have to deal with what is actually there.

Input?

 

[Rhamiel]

I just want to say, you make the most interesting threads

 

[~Anastasia~]

I just want to say, you make the most interesting threads

This is one I didn't actually want to make. And the ironic thing is, I'm most interested to hear from the "We confess to God only" point of view, even though that's what I'm familiar with.

But I'm wanting to hear any opinions. I just hope it doesn't get heated, but everyone has generally been civil when I've brought things up.

 

[Rhamiel]

Only God has the authority to forgive sins
so the Pharisees were kind of right in Mark 2:7

ofcourse since Jesus is God, He can forgive sins

you quoted John 20, but you started at 22
I think the key is one verse before at 20:21

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you."

Jesus was sent to heal the sick, preach the Good news, cast out demons, and forgive sins, to reconcile God and man
then He gives His disciples the Holy Spirit and they are sent out as He was sent out

as a Catholic, I hold very closely to the idea of Apostolic Succession, the idea that there is a continuity in the Church, a continuity of proclaiming the true Gospel, and also a physical continuity of Baptism, and the laying on of hands and blessing (this is done at confirmation, but it is also done when men become priests or bishops)

 

[cerette]

Forgiveness always comes from God.
God has given His church the right to speak the words of absolution (declaring someone's sins forgiven) to a repentant person. (And to not speak the words of absolution to an unrepentant person.) In Lutheranism we call this "the office of the Keys" and you can study it more here:
http://www.clclutheran.org/lfm/lfm18.pdf

 

[Rhamiel]

so only God has the authority to forgive sins, but as we see in James 5, God can also delegate this authority to His Disciples

 

[~Anastasia~]

Only God has the authority to forgive sins
so the Pharisees were kind of right in Mark 2:7

ofcourse since Jesus is God, He can forgive sins

you quoted John 20, but you started at 22
I think the key is one verse before at 20:21

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you."

Jesus was sent to heal the sick, preach the Good news, cast out demons, and forgive sins, to reconcile God and man
then He gives His disciples the Holy Spirit and they are sent out as He was sent out

as a Catholic, I hold very closely to the idea of Apostolic Succession, the idea that there is a continuity in the Church, a continuity of proclaiming the true Gospel, and also a physical continuity of Baptism, and the laying on of hands and blessing (this is done at confirmation, but it is also done when men become priests or bishops)

I see ... thank you and good point on including the previous verse. I will edit my OP to include it.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the only thing I am curious about in regards to the Catholic faith is ... do you believe that you actually NEED a priest to confess to in order to be forgiven? Can't you just pray to God and ask forgiveness directly?

I realize this is probably a very basic question (though I don't know the answer) and I don't mean to stir any controversy by asking. Thanks again.

 

[Albion]

The authority to forgive sins in God's name was given to Christ's church. Even the Roman Catholic Church, which is probably better known for making Confession a sacrament and whose administration of it has been featured in numerous movies , didn't make it a sacrament until more than a thousand years after Christ, and even then did not automatically permit every priest to hear confessions merely as a result of being ordained.

 

[bushinoki]

Kyllissa, another thing to remember is that, while all the authors of the various books/gospels/epistles were divinely inspired, they were also different men. Paul writes "we are saved by grace alone, through faith", and James writes "show me your faith without works, and I will show you mine through my works." The reason every book in the Bible was ever written was to address these theological issues, and the theologically sound answer can be found by looking at the whole picture. My answer is that we need to be held accountable to one another, and Confession can be a great way to do that.

 

[fhansen]

Input?

You could check out the earliest catechism we know of as well as ECFs:

DIDACHE (as early as 70 AD) -- Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life....On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure. (4:14; 14:1)

TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE (200 AD) -- [Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness. Why do you flee from the partners of your misfortunes as you would from those who deride? The body is not able to take pleasure in the trouble of one of its members. It must necessarily grieve as a whole and join in laboring for a remedy....With one and two individuals, there is the Church [cf. Matt 18:17ff]; and the Church indeed is Christ. Therefore, when you cast yourself at the knees of the brethren, you are dealing with Christ, you are entreating Christ. (On Repentance 10:1,6)

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA (c. 244 AD) -- In addition to these [kinds of forgiveness of sins], albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he [the sinner] does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine....In this way there is fulfilled that too, which the Apostle James says: "If, then, there is anyone sick, let him call the presbyters [where we get priests] of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him [James 5:14-15]." (Homily on Leviticus 2:4)

ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA (295 - 373 AD) -- Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest. (On the Gospel of Luke 19)

ST. BASIL THE GREAT (330 - 379 AD) -- It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God's mysteries [i.e. the Sacraments] is entrusted [i.e. priests]. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt 3:6]; but in Acts they confessed to the Apostles, by whom also all were baptized [Acts 19:18]. (Rules Briefly Treated 288)

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO (c. 354 - 430 AD) -- Let this be in the heart of the penitent: when you hear a man confessing his sins, he has already come to life again; when you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confessing, he has already come forth from the sepulchre; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? "Whatever you loose on earth," He says, "shall be loosed also in heaven" [Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23]. Rightly is the loosing of sins able to be given by the Church... (Psalms 101:2:3)

Yet those who do penance in accord with the kind of sin they have committed are not to despair of receiving God's mercy in the Holy Church, for the remission of their crimes, however serious. (Echiridian 17:65)

Iniquity, however, sometimes makes such progress in men that even after they have done penance and after their reconciliation to the altar they commit the same or more grievous sins....and although that place of penance in the Church is not granted them, God will not be unmindful of His patience in their regard....(Letters 153:3:7)

There have been those who would say that no penance is available for certain sins; and they have been excluded from the Church and have been made heretics. Holy Mother Church is not rendered powerless by any kind of sin. (Sermons 352:9)

ST. AMBROSE (c. 333 - 397 AD) -- But what was impossible was made possible by God, who gave us so great a grace. It seemed likewise impossible for sins to be forgiven through penance; yet Christ granted even this to His Apostles, and by His Apostles it has been transmitted to the offices of priest. (Penance 2:2:12)

ST. JEROME (c. 347 - 420 AD) -- Just as in the Old Testament [ibi] the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament [hic] the bishop and presbyter [i.e. priest] binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed. (Commentary on Matthew 3:16:19)

 

[~Anastasia~]

BTW, thanks to all who reply.

I will probably not address each post unless I have a direct question or comment - but I appreciate the replies anyway.

It seems if one DOES speak for confession to others - there is the additional question of who should hear it.

I am already hearing priests (and only particular ones) ranging to every believer.

Again, no wish to stir controversy, but I realize there are disagreements on this. I suppose hearing reasons for this, as well as reasons for interpreting the Scripture in the OP as you do, would be most helpful.

Thank you for the answers on this so far.

 

[stan1953]

I am trying to reconcile things I read in Scripture, and I know there are different interpretations of these things. I would appreciate hearing different viewpoints and the reason for interpreting them that way. I really need reasons, if you know of any, because I see "what it says".
Please everyone try to be respectful. I know this question crosses denominational lines.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is NASB. The Living Bible says "if we confess our sins to Him" but all the other translations I can find say basically the same as this. I have always taken it to mean that we confess to God, and I really see no other reason to interpret this any differently.

A. The Living Bible is NOT a translation, it's a paraphrase. The NASB is a translation and a fairly literal one.
B. The subject of v9 is shown in v5.

Hope this helps.

 

[cerette]

I am already hearing priests (and only particular ones) ranging to every believer.
.

Sorry but
I'm getting tired and that sounded too funny!

 

[Albion]

Notice that only one of the following is truly from the "early" church, and it doesn't mention priests or any office in connection with confession or the forgiveness of sins.

You could check out the earliest catechism we know of as well as ECFs:

DIDACHE (as early as 70 AD) -- Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life....On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure. (4:14; 14:1)

TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE (200 AD) -- [Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness. Why do you flee from the partners of your misfortunes as you would from those who deride? The body is not able to take pleasure in the trouble of one of its members. It must necessarily grieve as a whole and join in laboring for a remedy....With one and two individuals, there is the Church [cf. Matt 18:17ff]; and the Church indeed is Christ. Therefore, when you cast yourself at the knees of the brethren, you are dealing with Christ, you are entreating Christ. (On Repentance 10:1,6)

ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA (c. 244 AD) -- In addition to these [kinds of forgiveness of sins], albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he [the sinner] does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine....In this way there is fulfilled that too, which the Apostle James says: "If, then, there is anyone sick, let him call the presbyters [where we get priests] of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him [James 5:14-15]." (Homily on Leviticus 2:4)

ST. ATHANASIUS OF ALEXANDRIA (295 - 373 AD) -- Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest. (On the Gospel of Luke 19)

ST. BASIL THE GREAT (330 - 379 AD) -- It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God's mysteries [i.e. the Sacraments] is entrusted [i.e. priests]. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt 3:6]; but in Acts they confessed to the Apostles, by whom also all were baptized [Acts 19:18]. (Rules Briefly Treated 288)

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO (c. 354 - 430 AD) -- Let this be in the heart of the penitent: when you hear a man confessing his sins, he has already come to life again; when you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confessing, he has already come forth from the sepulchre; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? "Whatever you loose on earth," He says, "shall be loosed also in heaven" [Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23]. Rightly is the loosing of sins able to be given by the Church... (Psalms 101:2:3)

Yet those who do penance in accord with the kind of sin they have committed are not to despair of receiving God's mercy in the Holy Church, for the remission of their crimes, however serious. (Echiridian 17:65)

Iniquity, however, sometimes makes such progress in men that even after they have done penance and after their reconciliation to the altar they commit the same or more grievous sins....and although that place of penance in the Church is not granted them, God will not be unmindful of His patience in their regard....(Letters 153:3:7)

There have been those who would say that no penance is available for certain sins; and they have been excluded from the Church and have been made heretics. Holy Mother Church is not rendered powerless by any kind of sin. (Sermons 352:9)

ST. AMBROSE (c. 333 - 397 AD) -- But what was impossible was made possible by God, who gave us so great a grace. It seemed likewise impossible for sins to be forgiven through penance; yet Christ granted even this to His Apostles, and by His Apostles it has been transmitted to the offices of priest. (Penance 2:2:12)

ST. JEROME (c. 347 - 420 AD) -- Just as in the Old Testament [ibi] the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament [hic] the bishop and presbyter [i.e. priest] binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed. (Commentary on Matthew 3:16:19)[/B]

 

[~Anastasia~]

A. The Living Bible is NOT a translation, it's a paraphrase. The NASB is a translation and a fairly literal one.
B. The subject of v9 is shown in v5.

Hope this helps.

Agreed as far as translations. I never use the Living Bible. I just looked at a list of 35 or so versions, and the Living Bible was the ONLY one that said "if we confess our sins to Him" ... every single other version simply said "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive" or similar.

I agree God is the subject of the entire passage. He is the one who forgives. I just can't for certain see a proof that it is Him we confess to. If anyone who can understand the grammatical structures in Greek well enough to prove this one way or another, I would very much appreciate it.

Although as I said, I have always taken that verse to mean we confess to God, and I don't see a reason to interpret that particular verse in any other way.

I'm not trying to argue a position, just find the truth. I appreciate your input.

Thank you.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Notice that only one of the following is truly from the "early" church, and it doesn't mention priests or any office in connection with confession or the forgiveness of sins.

The authority to forgive sins in God's name was given to Christ's church. Even the Roman Catholic Church, which is probably better known for making Confession a sacrament and whose administration of it has been featured in numerous movies , didn't make it a sacrament until more than a thousand years after Christ, and even then did not automatically permit every priest to hear confessions merely as a result of being ordained.

I'm sorry Albion, I'm a little confused. Is your point that the entire body of believers are authorized to forgive sins?

Thank you.

 

[football5680]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the only thing I am curious about in regards to the Catholic faith is ... do you believe that you actually NEED a priest to confess to in order to be forgiven? Can't you just pray to God and ask forgiveness directly?

You must confess all mortal sins to a Priest but not all venial sins for practical reasons. Most people wouldn't be able to recall all their venial sins and some people do not know that what they are doing is a sin. Mortal sins are serious offenses against God and they are not things that you would forget.

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (1 John 5:16)

This verse shows the differentiation between the types of sin. There are sins that lead to death and others that don't. If the sin is not mortal then you can pray to God and be forgiven. If the sin is mortal then you must go through the necessary faculties that Jesus established to be forgiven. Jesus empowered his apostles to forgive sins and he would not do this unless it actually served a purpose. These men are not all-knowing so you must confess your sins to them.

 

[stan1953]

Agreed as far as translations. I never use the Living Bible. I just looked at a list of 35 or so versions, and the Living Bible was the ONLY one that said "if we confess our sins to Him" ... every single other version simply said "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive" or similar.

I agree God is the subject of the entire passage. He is the one who forgives. I just can't for certain see a proof that it is Him we confess to. If anyone who can understand the grammatical structures in Greek well enough to prove this one way or another, I would very much appreciate it.

Although as I said, I have always taken that verse to mean we confess to God, and I don't see a reason to interpret that particular verse in any other way.

I'm not trying to argue a position, just find the truth. I appreciate your input.

Thank you.

Yes I understood that, but as I said a paraphrase is not reliable when it comes to actual translation, so the Living Bible should not be a concern for you. Again just as in Greek, the English takes it's subject of whom from v5.
The Greek is NOT any clearer. Maybe you will prefer the NRSV translation;
1 John 1:9 NRSV - If we confess our sins, he who is - Bible Gateway

 

[Rhamiel]

I see ... thank you and good point on including the previous verse. I will edit my OP to include it.

Thanks for the explanation. I guess the only thing I am curious about in regards to the Catholic faith is ... do you believe that you actually NEED a priest to confess to in order to be forgiven? Can't you just pray to God and ask forgiveness directly?

I realize this is probably a very basic question (though I don't know the answer) and I don't mean to stir any controversy by asking. Thanks again.

do not worry about your question being too "basic"
these are complex questions you are asking

Jesus is not a slave to the sacraments

for example, Mark 16:16 talks about how those who believe and are baptized will be saved

but then we have the Good Thief on the cross next to Jesus, the Good Thief was never baptized and yet he was saved

So, I would say that the Sacrament of Confession is not the only way that God forgives sins
but I would say that it is the "normal" way that God forgives sins

there is the idea of "Perfect Contrition" where someone is completely and totally sorry for their sins but does not have the opportunity to go to the Sacrament of Confession, we believe that the person is forgiven

remember, all repentance is a grace from God
it is only through Him calling us that our hearts are moved to repent

 

[Albion]

I'm sorry Albion, I'm a little confused. Is your point that the entire body of believers are authorized to forgive sins?

Thank you.

No, it's that the church has received that commission, not special confessors as in the famous priest in the booth hearing people's confessions from behind the grate.

This is why some of the Apostolic churches, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, have a "General Confession" of sins recited by the whole congregation, during the worship service (as we can see in the words of the Didache that our friend "fhansen" presented to us a few posts back).