Confederate flag

Redac

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Factory workers are worse off than slaves.

The slaves were freed at a high cost but the factory worker still grinds away for a pittance:sigh:

Indeed; to paraphrase, the slave is freed when the relations of slavery are abolished and he becomes a worker. The factory worker requires a more comprehensive abolition, so to speak.
 
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lismore

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Not really. Factory workers are allowed to keep their children, barring divorce or neglect.

I met an elderly lady who worked in jute mills and had lost her young child in an industrial accident there, the children being sent to work in these factories from a young age. The child had fallen asleep on a very long shift and been mangled in the machine. Another person I met lost a finger in the mills.
 
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I Eat Pie

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I met an elderly lady who worked in jute mills and had lost her young child in an industrial accident there, the children being sent to work in these factories from a young age. The child had fallen asleep on a very long shift and been mangled in the machine. Another person I met lost a finger in the mills.

Tragic, but that's not the mill's fault
 
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lismore

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Oh wait, how old was the kid?

I looked up a website online to get more info:

Working alongside the women would be thousands of children. Again they commanded only low wages, and being so small meant they could pack the machines closer together. Children under nine would work as ‘pickers’, cleaning dust from beneath the machines.

Health hazards were unavoidable. The heat, dust, grease and oil fumes caused a condition known as ‘Mill fever’, which would lead to respiratory diseases like bronchitis. And there was always the risk of accidents with the machines, graphic descriptions of which were common reading in the local newspaper.

Verdant Works - Jute Industry in Dundee

The phrases 'Children under nine' 'graphic accidents' and 'common reading' - very concerning indeed:(
 
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LionofJudahDK

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Since this is a History forum, we should endeavor to be accurate. There is no right given to the states to leave the Union by the Constitution.

There was no written right for the 13 colonies to leave the British Empire, was there?

Slavery is one of the most abhorrent institutions invented. However, saying: "Seceeding from the Union was treason, but seceeding from the BE wasn't" is just plain nonsensical and arbitrary. The 13 colonies felt they could no longer stay in the Empire, and the CSA felt it could no longer stay in the Union.
No difference, whatsoever.
 
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Ken-1122

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There's a lot I hear about this being a flag of hate and racism, but it sounds like nowadays, people almost look for stuff to be "offended" over, so I did some reading.

I just wanna know your guys' opinion on it. Racist flag, or just Southern pride?

I'm leaning more towards Southern pride. Personally, I don't think it symbolizes racism in any way.

Note: I'm not from or never have been to the South.
To me the Confederate flag is a symbol of racism and white separatism, just as I see the Nazi swastika as a symbol of anti-Semitism.
I realize initially the confederate flag may have been about “states rights” or some other issue, but then the swastika was not initially about genocide against the Jewish people. But during WW-2, when they posted that Nazi flag at the concentration camps, those murderers basically hijacked the swastika to mean what most see it as representing today; and I feel the same for the confederate flag. When Jim Crow, Bull Connor, and the Klu Klux Klan used the confederate flag to represent their cause, they basically hijacked the flag to represent racism and nobody did anything to stop it.
I suspect the reason nobody tried to stop it is because those who like the flag agreed with the racist causes it was being hijacked to represent because I can guarantee you, if when the homosexuals began coming out of the closet and demanding their rights, had they attempted to hijack the rebel/confederate flag to represent their cause instead of the rainbow flag, there would have been a whole lota objections going on.
So IMO anybody who has a problem with the fact that many see the confederate flag as a symbol of racism has nobody to blame but themselves because they did nothing to stop it.


Ken
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Slavery indeed had much to do Southern rebellion, even though most Southerners didn't own slaves. Secession was driven largely by the wealthy planter class who believed slave labor was essential for their economic livelihood and rejected federal interference. But more fundamental than slavery was the idea of White supremacy. Which was widespread in the 19th century. Alexander Stephens, who was Jeff Davis's VP, was blunt about it. This is from the "Cornerstone" speech he gave in 1861 (in my hometown, btw):

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

I'm sure a lot of Northerners felt much the same, but they didn't try to build a new nation on it. After the war, the Confederate flag (actually the Naval Jack) was adopted by the KKK, and has continued to be associated with White supremacy groups. That's why it's so reviled. It symbolizes a social order where one race is held to be superior and privileged above others. This has damaged the flag as irreparably as the swastika has been damaged. It's futile and totally unrealistic to think it can be salvaged.

Being a Southerner myself as well as black - and growing up with an aversion to the flag for what it came to symbolize - I find it fascinating to see how there are cases of blacks who owned/supported Confederate Flags in the same way that others supported the use of a swastika for what it originally represented instead of demonizing it for what it came to be used for by corrupt groups:

Historically, it was already the case that you had blacks fighting on the side of the Confederacy ( more shared here in #1 & #15) - as many blacks fought in the Civil War on the side of the South for their own reasons - freedom being one of them (more here/here /here)as well as the fact that not all in the South endorsed slavery nor abuse as many in the North claimed---and for them, the North often didn't have much to offer) - and thus, we have to be honest with our use of historical evidence on what symbols mean to others.
 
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Ken-1122

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There was no written right for the 13 colonies to leave the British Empire, was there?

Slavery is one of the most abhorrent institutions invented. However, saying: "Seceeding from the Union was treason, but seceeding from the BE wasn't" is just plain nonsensical and arbitrary. The 13 colonies felt they could no longer stay in the Empire, and the CSA felt it could no longer stay in the Union.
No difference, whatsoever.
There is a big difference! Nobody cares about commiting treason against the Brittish, but we do care about committing treason against the USA.

Ken
 
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