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Discussion in 'History & Genealogy' started by I Eat Pie, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    Which is totally not what I said. Stop assuming and/or projecting.

    I must have missed the part where you linked to the actual study, as I have no idea what names were used. Also, I dunno how to tell you this, but Jamal and Rasheed aren't black names. They're Arabic. Tamika is actually a corruption of Tamar, which is Hebrew. Uncommon names =/= strange. I have a friend named Napoleon.

    Now name your kid Banjo, Air, Scooby, Nyx, or (heaven forbid) Binky... yeah, we might have a problem.
     
  2. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    You said that the perception among people is that those who would name their child something strange (in this context, something "black") are thought of as lacking in intelligence and/or responsibility, and thus that child's upbringing may have been subpar. What exactly am I missing here?


    Chicago GSB | Capital Ideas

    But really, a quick google search turns up plenty of articles about this, though I'd bet many are referencing this study.


    You're being deliberately obtuse here. Those names, along with things like Latoya, Damarcus, etc. are pretty common names among black communities. That some of these names have origins in other parts of the world is not particularly relevant.

    That's not what the names are, though. That you're equivocating someone named Lakisha with someone named Binky is just silly.

    A name like Lakisha Washington isn't really very strange, is it? It's "black" but it's not really out there. Put it next to Emily Walsh, however, and go ahead and guess who's more likely to get a call back.
     
  3. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    Like the name Condoleezza?



    [​IMG]
     
  4. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    In the sense that it can't be done by simple legal fiat, yes. The more advance countries managed to accomplish it not much later, though, largely due to the organizing of labor.

    Not necessarily. The eight hour day and the weekend had been won the unions well before the end of Jim Crow. Wages slavery has to do with long hours that give the worker little or no personal time, low wages that are barely enough to survive on, and as a further aggravating factor, the dangerous conditions that often existed in 19th century factories.

    Likewise, share cropping was ended by the mechanization of agriculture, again well before the Civil Rights Movement.

    Whites in the South during Reconstruction didn't have the vote either. I wouldn't compare that to slavery.


    Thirteen state governments were "a small group of disgruntled voters"?
     
  5. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    Perhaps I didn't make it clear that my post refers to the current neo-secessionist movement. Are you talking about the 13 original colonies?
     
  6. GloryBe!

    GloryBe! Always learning.....

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    Whoa! Y'all are way too angry and taking things way too personally on this thread... that goes for ALL RACES represented here. Y'all have fun being all dramatic. I have better things to do than read a bunch of racist excuses.
     
  7. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    It's been fairly normal so far. You may be reading too much into it.
     
  8. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    You are once again projecting or assuming. I never said anything about black being strange. I'm sorry you're unable to understand that the two are not mutual.


    Yes, there are many, and the names used vary between them. I was tired of playing the game of "These aren't the types of names I meant." As for that study, notice how they use very generic "white" names? If you work at it, you can make a study show the results you want in these kind of situations. It isn't necessarily a matter of race, but human instinct. Humans tend to distrust things that they see as strange or out of place to them. It's hard-wired into our brain.

    No, you're simply trying to force a "race" issue on something that may or may not be race related. Heck, it may not even be an issue of naturally distrusting something that sounds strange or unusual.

    And yes, the origin of their names are important. You can't simply divide names into "white name" and "black names." For one thing, there's more than two ethnic groups, and for another, things like Biblical names tend to cross racial lines quite easily. Take Noah for example. I've met black and white people named that. What does that name fall under?

    Heck, I've met several Rasheeds, and every one of them was Middle Eastern descent. I'm not saying black people can't name their kids Rasheed, but just because you look at a name and think "black" doesn't mean every one else will.

    Why? I've met both. Do you think if the "white" names had such choices as "Binky" "Kiki" or "Bubba" that the results would've been a little different?

    As an aside, I personally dislike the name Lakisha. It really has no true origin and thus, no real meaning. I've seen it said to mean a cinnamon tree, alive, favorite, and many other things. Then again, I'm an Onomaphile.
     
  9. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    Yes, because Italian names sound like stripper names or that the person escaped from a fantasy book. Although it's not uncommon for some... less aware... people to confuse Italian with Spanish. You seem to miss the point, though. Condoleezza sounds like it belongs to one group or another, it isn't outside of the "norm" people would hear in their daily lives.
     
  10. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    That you ignored the context of the discussion I was having prior to you joining in is not my fault. I was discussing "black" names and the difficulty people with those names can have; if you jump in and start talking about how people perceive strange names as indicative of stupid or irresponsible parents, it's natural for me to make that connection.


    Your links even agree with me that the names perceived as "black" or otherwise not perceived as "white" are the ones that struggle the most in job applications.

    It's an English rendering that is widespread enough among various racial groups that it isn't perceived as being typical of one group or another. That this occurs a lot does not mean that there are not many names that occur the majority of the time in one group over others, or even just the perception of it. How many white guys do you know with the name Jamarcus, for example?

    It's a non-English, non-European name that occurs primarily in Arab communities or black communities. On the other hand, I don't imagine there are many white people with that name that aren't Muslims. This automatically it's it into the "unusual or foreign" category for many people, and that perception does make it more difficult for people. Heck, your above link even mentions that names like Rasheed and Kareem didnt really work in the study.


    Why? I've met both. Do you think if the "white" names had such choices as "Binky" "Kiki" or "Bubba" that the results would've been a little different?

    As an aside, I personally dislike the name Lakisha. It really has no true origin and thus, no real meaning. I've seen it said to mean a cinnamon tree, alive, favorite, and many other things. Then again, I'm an Onomaphile.[/QUOTE]

    What? Condoleezza is not an Italian name; it is a corruption, to use your own term, of an Italian musical term, con dolcezza. Unless I and the Italians (from Italy) that I know are mistaken, Condoleezza or variations thereof do not appear in the Italian language.

    And exactly how many Condoleezzas do you know or have heard of? Because if it weren't for Rice, I'd bet you and many others would find it a lot stranger.
     
  11. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    I was talking about the thirteen states of the Confederacy. The legislatures of Missouri and Kentucky didn't vote to secede, so technically I should have said eleven, but I think my point still stands.
     
  12. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    I saw no mention of black names, but fair enough.


    My links link back to that study, which I said was flawed.

    I've never known anyone with that name. Tell me, what does the Ja mean?

    If I used the term foreign, it was poor choice on my part. While there are certainly idiots who think any non European name is strange (I once worked with a guy who thought Buddhists worshipped boots... no lie), I was meaning more that names which do not "sound" like they belong into any given group. It's an unconscious effect for the most part. Most people don't know the origins of any given name except maybe their own, but "unnatural" names (meaning names which sound completely made up and not part of a culture) stick out like a sore thumb. That's not even mentioning "prejudiced" names, or names which are associated with certain personality traits (usually because of novels, movies, or other works of fiction).


    :doh:You really don't understand how names work, do you? Pretty much all names originated as words or a corruption of words in their given language. Rachel, for example, literally means Ewe, and when Hebrew parents first started naming their kids Rachel, they were naming them after a word they used. These days that practice has fallen out of disfavor (hence not naming your daughter Star, Cherry, etc.) but one can still create a new name if one uses another language, which sort of hides that. It isn't that I've met several Condoleezzas, it's that "fits" within the "sound" of a group. In this case, Italian.
     
  13. Bethesda

    Bethesda Newbie

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    well we had abolished slavery some time before, old chap (notwithstanding that most Britons were racists even after that -the pressure to do it came in part at least for moral reasons as well as I am sure reasons of real politik) but its the pretending that really slavery was not so bad bit that I dislike.
     
  14. And I'm essentially being told that when white people use it, it's racist. Also when a black man drops the n word, it's cool. When a white man drops it in the same context, it's racist and he can get his ass whipped. Please don't come with some nonsense that black people can use it and a white man can't; that's the most hypocritical thing out there. I still hear Native Americans called Indians, and people still use our likeness for Mascots.
     
  15. Where's Native Americans in all this? Oh wait, that's right. Only African American, women, and other immigrants are the ones with a legitimate grip in this country. Nevermind about the people whose land was stolen from them.
     
  16. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

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    Are you really trying to equate a factory worker with a slave?
     
  17. Eric Hibbert

    Eric Hibbert Guest

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    No. He's saying that many factory workers in the North would have taken issue with your statement.
     
  18. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Do you know what life was often like for factory workers in those days? Work shifts of twelve hours or more, (even for children) subsistence wages, dangerous conditions. Those who lived that like might not really have seen much of a difference. I believe the term is "wage slavery".
     
  19. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Sharecropping was widespread during, as well as after, Reconstruction.

    A separate issue really.

    Propertyless white men in the US initially didn't have the vote. Also, whites were effectively disenfranchised in the former Confederate States during Reconstruction. The UK had property requirements for voting up into the twentieth century. Many countries, even to this day, don't have elections at all. I wouldn't equate any of this with slavery.
     
  20. Lilly Owl

    Lilly Owl Since when is God's adversary a curse word here?

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    It's hard to believe this issue is still an issue in the 21st century.

    It's not a flag that represented Slavery. People can align it with that but it doesn't change the facts.

    Besides that the slaves have been free for quite a long while in this country, so people need to get over playing the victim to a status that didn't affect them personally at all.
    Just as soon as free blacks who owned black slaves back in the day pay reparations to those families, and apologize, it will no longer be a false history racist propaganda platform that implies slavery was a 'white thing', fostered against the 'poor unfortunate black people in America!"
    Especially since now slavery is still going on in this country in the form of sex trafficking. And it's a world wide epidemic. Just like slavery of all races was back in the day prior to the Civil War and as it's continued to date.

    Like they say, Whites need to stop apologizing for being white. And blacks need to take responsibility for having owned their own people as slaves at one time in America.
    And as they continue to enslave their own people when they assume the role of thug, gang banger, drug dealer, murderer, rapist and pimp. And then make CD's spitting rhymes about their experience so they can live large while they walk away from the carnage they helped produce before white media moguls found a way to produce them!
     
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