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Confederate flag

Discussion in 'History & Genealogy' started by I Eat Pie, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. GloryBe!

    GloryBe! Always learning.....

    356
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    I'm a southern girl, and the Confederate flag means something different to me and my family. It represents a fight -for-freedom zeal. It represents the right of the south to secede if it chooses. It's the spirit of the south that can't die. It has nothing to do with slavery(since, even the north had slaves). It is about freedom, and if we have to "rebel" to get it, so be it.
     
  2. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Which freedoms was the south fighting for, exactly? Even if you wanna claim it's about state's rights or tariffs or something, it all comes back to the question of slavery (not necessarily its moral aspects). Attempts to deflect this are mighty suspect.
     
  3. TScott

    TScott Curmudgeon

    +145
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    US-Democrat
    Since this is a History forum, we should endeavor to be accurate. There is no right given to the states to leave the Union by the Constitution. At the time of the Civil War, when the Confederate flag was adopted, there most certainly was no slavery in the North.
     
  4. Adaephon

    Adaephon Guest

    +0
    That is quite clearly historically untrue. You can be as melodramatic and emotional as you like, but slavery had quite a bit to do with it. This was anything but some noble freedom quest. Not sure either why you put rebel in quotes either. It is quite obvious that is what they did.
     
  5. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    I'm a native Southerner, too. Slavery indeed had much to do Southern rebellion, even though most Southerners didn't own slaves. Secession was driven largely by the wealthy planter class who believed slave labor was essential for their economic livelihood and rejected federal interference. But more fundamental than slavery was the idea of White supremacy. Which was widespread in the 19th century. Alexander Stephens, who was Jeff Davis's VP, was blunt about it. This is from the "Cornerstone" speech he gave in 1861 (in my hometown, btw):

    "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

    I'm sure a lot of Northerners felt much the same, but they didn't try to build a new nation on it. After the war, the Confederate flag (actually the Naval Jack) was adopted by the KKK, and has continued to be associated with White supremacy groups. That's why it's so reviled. It symbolizes a social order where one race is held to be superior and privileged above others. This has damaged the flag as irreparably as the swastika has been damaged. It's futile and totally unrealistic to think it can be salvaged.
     
  6. keith99

    keith99 sola dosis facit venenum

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    Bolding mine.

    I would not be surprised the basic explicit part was even more common in the North than the South.

    The biggest difference being the implicit part.

    Both held that the Negro was inferior. The South, especially the southern planters, felt this made the negro someone to exploit. In the North the idea that they were more like children to be guided and protected was more common.

    Neither was good.
     
  7. Adaephon

    Adaephon Guest

    +0
    Yes. It is unfortunate that racism is still so prevalent. And even worse really that some are so eager to sweep it under the rug.
     
  8. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

    +2,172
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    Does there have to be? The Constitution owes its very existence to the notion that people, or at least Americans, have the right to change their government if it no longer represented them. What was the point of American independence if it was only to replace servitude to Westminster with servitude to Washington?

    Many of the factory workers in the North would have taken issue with statement.
     
  9. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    Wage slavery is considerably more difficult to abolish, unfortunately.
     
  10. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    But we are a nation of laws, not men. There are legally proper ways to change our government. We can change the President every 4 years, 1/3 of the House every 2 years, and 1/3 of the Senate every 6 years. And we can change the Constitution if enough citizens demand it from their legislators. But what we're seeing here is a small group of disgruntled voters who want to dismantle the country because they don't like the way a couple of elections have gone. Similar to spoiled children, who are mad about losing the game, don't want to follow the rules, and pack up their ball and go home.
     
  11. I Eat Pie

    I Eat Pie Well-Known Member

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    I heard something about democrats in 2004 who threatened to go to canada if bush won again. Does that count?
     
  12. Darkhorse

    Darkhorse just horsing around

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    We can change the entire House every 2 years, and 1/3 of the Senate every 2 years (the entire Senate every 6 years)...:sorry:
     
  13. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    Thank you. You are absolutely correct. Even more evidence of all the legal opportunities we have to change our government.
     
  14. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    If it was about freedom, then why couldn't states join the confederacy and be a free state? ;)
     
  15. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    You seem really interested in whether or not people have black friends. Unfortunately, I only have one, but then, I base my friendships on shared interests and ideals, not skin color.

    He likes that idea less than I do. It's sort of racist, if you think about it. It suggests that blacks are somehow unable to achieve the same level of success as whites without the government there to help and guide them. It's not so different than many of the views held by northerners in the Civil War era.
     
  16. Rion

    Rion Annuit Cœptis Supporter

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    That has less to do with race and more to do with perceived intelligence and responsibility... of the parent. The belief is that a person who names their child something strange tends to be lacking in either one or both qualities and so their child rearing was... lacking.

    Having worked as a manager at a grocery store during college, we tended to get rid of the applications of the ones with the bizarre names because they were usually not worth the trouble.

    Protip: Naming your child something that sounds like
    A) Medicine
    B) An escapee from Shanara
    C) A Stripper
    or
    D) A Wrestler

    isn't a good idea. It hurts their chances in life.
     
  17. Oh, so you want it to just be about WHITE AMERICANS who are the blame here. You only want the part truth,the part where it paints WHITE AMERICNA MALES as the evil guys; can't have the Africans or Brits be painted as the bad buys either can we.
     
  18. So if a person has a Confederate flag flying, that means they're a racist and support racist ideals? I mean, I know a number of black men who keep the Confederate flag hung up in their rooms and homes. Oh wait, that's right. Only black people can do such things.
     
  19. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    That people associate black names with unintelligent and irresponsible parents and poor upbringing is quite telling.

    Couple problems with all that, though. These aren't ridiculous, almost parody-like names being sent in; names like Jamal or Rasheed or Tamika, those are what was used. Are those names so out there that you wouldn't even look at it?

    The other problem is that these CVs had more or less comparable qualifications. It wasn't just a name, it was similar credentials, the difference being a white name or a black name. Guess who got called in a whole lot less?
     
  20. Redac

    Redac Regular Member

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    If I show you a photo of a brown-skinned man wearing Nazi symbols, does that mean that the Nazi symbols are no longer racially-charged? Because that's essentially what you're arguing.
     
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