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GloryBe!

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I'm a southern girl, and the Confederate flag means something different to me and my family. It represents a fight -for-freedom zeal. It represents the right of the south to secede if it chooses. It's the spirit of the south that can't die. It has nothing to do with slavery(since, even the north had slaves). It is about freedom, and if we have to "rebel" to get it, so be it.
 
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Redac

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I'm a southern girl, and the Confederate flag means something different to me and my family. It represents a fight -for-freedom zeal. It represents the right of the south to secede if it chooses. It's the spirit of the south that can't die. It has nothing to do with slavery(since, even the north had slaves). It is about freedom, and if we have to "rebel" to get it, so be it.

Which freedoms was the south fighting for, exactly? Even if you wanna claim it's about state's rights or tariffs or something, it all comes back to the question of slavery (not necessarily its moral aspects). Attempts to deflect this are mighty suspect.
 
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TScott

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I'm a southern girl, and the Confederate flag means something different to me and my family. It represents a fight -for-freedom zeal. It represents the right of the south to secede if it chooses. It's the spirit of the south that can't die. It has nothing to do with slavery(since, even the north had slaves). It is about freedom, and if we have to "rebel" to get it, so be it.
Since this is a History forum, we should endeavor to be accurate. There is no right given to the states to leave the Union by the Constitution. At the time of the Civil War, when the Confederate flag was adopted, there most certainly was no slavery in the North.
 
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Adaephon

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I'm a southern girl, and the Confederate flag means something different to me and my family. It represents a fight -for-freedom zeal. It represents the right of the south to secede if it chooses. It's the spirit of the south that can't die. It has nothing to do with slavery(since, even the north had slaves). It is about freedom, and if we have to "rebel" to get it, so be it.

That is quite clearly historically untrue. You can be as melodramatic and emotional as you like, but slavery had quite a bit to do with it. This was anything but some noble freedom quest. Not sure either why you put rebel in quotes either. It is quite obvious that is what they did.
 
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jayem

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That is quite clearly historically untrue. You can be as melodramatic and emotional as you like, but slavery had quite a bit to do with it. This was anything but some noble freedom quest. Not sure either why you put rebel in quotes either. It is quite obvious that is what they did.


I'm a native Southerner, too. Slavery indeed had much to do Southern rebellion, even though most Southerners didn't own slaves. Secession was driven largely by the wealthy planter class who believed slave labor was essential for their economic livelihood and rejected federal interference. But more fundamental than slavery was the idea of White supremacy. Which was widespread in the 19th century. Alexander Stephens, who was Jeff Davis's VP, was blunt about it. This is from the "Cornerstone" speech he gave in 1861 (in my hometown, btw):

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

I'm sure a lot of Northerners felt much the same, but they didn't try to build a new nation on it. After the war, the Confederate flag (actually the Naval Jack) was adopted by the KKK, and has continued to be associated with White supremacy groups. That's why it's so reviled. It symbolizes a social order where one race is held to be superior and privileged above others. This has damaged the flag as irreparably as the swastika has been damaged. It's futile and totally unrealistic to think it can be salvaged.
 
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keith99

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I'm a native Southerner, too. Slavery indeed had much to do Southern rebellion, even though most Southerners didn't own slaves. Secession was driven largely by the wealthy planter class who believed slave labor was essential for their economic livelihood and rejected federal interference. But more fundamental than slavery was the idea of White supremacy. Which was widespread in the 19th century. Alexander Stephens, who was Jeff Davis's VP, was blunt about it. This is from the "Cornerstone" speech he gave in 1861 (in my hometown, btw):

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

I'm sure a lot of Northerners felt much the same, but they didn't try to build a new nation on it. After the war, the Confederate flag (actually the Naval Jack) was adopted by the KKK, and has continued to be associated with White supremacy groups. That's why it's so reviled. It symbolizes a social order where one race is held to be superior and privileged above others. This has damaged the flag as irreparably as the swastika has been damaged. It's futile and totally unrealistic to think it can be salvaged.

Bolding mine.

I would not be surprised the basic explicit part was even more common in the North than the South.

The biggest difference being the implicit part.

Both held that the Negro was inferior. The South, especially the southern planters, felt this made the negro someone to exploit. In the North the idea that they were more like children to be guided and protected was more common.

Neither was good.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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TScott said:
Since this is a History forum, we should endeavor to be accurate. There is no right given to the states to leave the Union by the Constitution.

Does there have to be? The Constitution owes its very existence to the notion that people, or at least Americans, have the right to change their government if it no longer represented them. What was the point of American independence if it was only to replace servitude to Westminster with servitude to Washington?

TScott said:
At the time of the Civil War, when the Confederate flag was adopted, there most certainly was no slavery in the North.

Many of the factory workers in the North would have taken issue with statement.
 
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jayem

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Does there have to be? The Constitution owes its very existence to the notion that people, or at least Americans, have the right to change their government if it no longer represented them. What was the point of American independence if it was only to replace servitude to Westminster with servitude to Washington?

But we are a nation of laws, not men. There are legally proper ways to change our government. We can change the President every 4 years, 1/3 of the House every 2 years, and 1/3 of the Senate every 6 years. And we can change the Constitution if enough citizens demand it from their legislators. But what we're seeing here is a small group of disgruntled voters who want to dismantle the country because they don't like the way a couple of elections have gone. Similar to spoiled children, who are mad about losing the game, don't want to follow the rules, and pack up their ball and go home.
 
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Darkhorse

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But we are a nation of laws, not men. There are legally proper ways to change our government. We can change the President every 4 years, 1/3 of the House every 2 years, and 1/3 of the Senate every 6 years. And we can change the Constitution if enough citizens demand it from their legislators. But what we're seeing here is a small group of disgruntled voters who want to dismantle the country because they don't like the way a couple of elections have gone. Similar to spoiled children, who are mad about losing the game, don't want to follow the rules, and pack up their ball and go home.

We can change the entire House every 2 years, and 1/3 of the Senate every 2 years (the entire Senate every 6 years)...:sorry:
 
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jayem

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We can change the entire House every 2 years, and 1/3 of the Senate every 2 years (the entire Senate every 6 years)...:sorry:

Thank you. You are absolutely correct. Even more evidence of all the legal opportunities we have to change our government.
 
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Rion

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Oh that's unfortunate. I thought the civil war was about economic freedom and not slavery and that the north had slaves too.

Also, I'm a west coaster but I was thinking of buying the flag. I like some of those old civil war tunes, and there's plenty of videos online of southern black men with the flag. I remember one guy who got warned by the school to take it down but he wouldn't.

I think that for the exception of some racist folks, the flag really does represent just culture and heritage. I just don't think it's fair to look at it and automatically think it's racist. If we dig deep, we can find some history that southerners shared that the flag symbolizes.

But idk, maybe I'm wrong. But that's why I'm asking you guys xD

If it was about freedom, then why couldn't states join the confederacy and be a free state? ;)
 
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Rion

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You are sincere, and still asking for understanding. Can I ask, what do your Black friends say about your questions?

Cheers,

Doug

You may be right, CG. I gotta ask ya, what do your Black friends say when you ask them about this?

And what do your black friends say when you tell them this?

You seem really interested in whether or not people have black friends. Unfortunately, I only have one, but then, I base my friendships on shared interests and ideals, not skin color.

He likes that idea less than I do. It's sort of racist, if you think about it. It suggests that blacks are somehow unable to achieve the same level of success as whites without the government there to help and guide them. It's not so different than many of the views held by northerners in the Civil War era.
 
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Rion

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Those studies about people with "white" names getting twice the number of callbacks for job interviews weren't in-person affairs with obnoxious people. They were basically a boss being handed two more or less identical CVs, but one had a "black name".

Also, I'm curious: do you think prejudice against blacks ended when slavery was abolished? Maybe after the civil rights movement? When did it become blacks being irresponsible and wanting handouts, in your mind?


That's called racial profiling and stereotyping, and it's racism, despite your claims to the contrary.


That you equate African-American or otherwise black names with the "ghetto" is quite telling. Why can't these people just have "proper" names, right?:doh:


Not all black people act like this, but it's still much harder for blacks to get jobs and the like (and those are the one who aren't necessarily gangsta).


Which names are respectable, exactly? Who decides that?



When you stereotype blacks as a whole as being "hood" or otherwise not having "respectable" names, and then say this is part of why they're struggling... well, what do you expect the response to be?

That has less to do with race and more to do with perceived intelligence and responsibility... of the parent. The belief is that a person who names their child something strange tends to be lacking in either one or both qualities and so their child rearing was... lacking.

Having worked as a manager at a grocery store during college, we tended to get rid of the applications of the ones with the bizarre names because they were usually not worth the trouble.

Protip: Naming your child something that sounds like
A) Medicine
B) An escapee from Shanara
C) A Stripper
or
D) A Wrestler

isn't a good idea. It hurts their chances in life.
 
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muslimsoldier4life

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well a version that says 'slavery wasn't so bad for you black folks and anyway its all other black people that sold you in the first place' is not likely to garner too much support beyond some of the people who were never enslaved
Oh, so you want it to just be about WHITE AMERICANS who are the blame here. You only want the part truth,the part where it paints WHITE AMERICNA MALES as the evil guys; can't have the Africans or Brits be painted as the bad buys either can we.
 
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muslimsoldier4life

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That is quite clearly historically untrue. You can be as melodramatic and emotional as you like
So if a person has a Confederate flag flying, that means they're a racist and support racist ideals? I mean, I know a number of black men who keep the Confederate flag hung up in their rooms and homes. Oh wait, that's right. Only black people can do such things.
 
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Redac

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That has less to do with race and more to do with perceived intelligence and responsibility... of the parent. The belief is that a person who names their child something strange tends to be lacking in either one or both qualities and so their child rearing was... lacking.

Having worked as a manager at a grocery store during college, we tended to get rid of the applications of the ones with the bizarre names because they were usually not worth the trouble.

Protip: Naming your child something that sounds like
A) Medicine
B) An escapee from Shanara
C) A Stripper
or
D) A Wrestler

isn't a good idea. It hurts their chances in life.

That people associate black names with unintelligent and irresponsible parents and poor upbringing is quite telling.

Couple problems with all that, though. These aren't ridiculous, almost parody-like names being sent in; names like Jamal or Rasheed or Tamika, those are what was used. Are those names so out there that you wouldn't even look at it?

The other problem is that these CVs had more or less comparable qualifications. It wasn't just a name, it was similar credentials, the difference being a white name or a black name. Guess who got called in a whole lot less?
 
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Redac

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So if a person has a Confederate flag flying, that means they're a racist and support racist ideals? I mean, I know a number of black men who keep the Confederate flag hung up in their rooms and homes. Oh wait, that's right. Only black people can do such things.

If I show you a photo of a brown-skinned man wearing Nazi symbols, does that mean that the Nazi symbols are no longer racially-charged? Because that's essentially what you're arguing.
 
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