Conditional salvation??

Dorothy Mae said:

What say you?

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Yes, it means that.

Accepting the Word of God and, later, neglecting it also means that. Consider the stony & thorny grounds of Matthew 13.

Dorothy Mae said:

Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

What say you?

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Absolutley .all salvation is conditional upon obedience to the Good news of Jesus.

The fact that God has already done everything required to make Salvation available to All... Is the Grace of God.

Then upon hearing this good news of what he has already done.. To become flesh to die on the cross for our sin to rise again from the dead...
We must then follow the instructions to avail ourselves of that grace.
These obedient actions are called the action of faith.
Thus it is written .by grace...Through faith ..

By hearing what christ has already done
Then Doing what he says to do
We will be saved.
Hearing alone will never save.

Disobedience is the basis of all sin.
To be saved from sin we must cease disobedience
And begin learning OBEDIENCE..

Its all conditional.
There is no such thing as a non conditional covenant between two parties.

Dorothy Mae said:

Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

What say you?

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All you've got to do, to be sure of your salvation, is place your faith on what Jesus did on the cross, and repent of your sins. Your faith, is what will be the root and the reason you're saved, but the fruit of your salvation, and the proof of it, will be how you conduct yourself after. There should be a noticeable difference between the you before, and the you after.

Back in Ezekiel He tells you what someone who is saved, would do:

5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

In verse 9, the word "statutes" is chuqqah (h2708 חֻקָּה chuqqah), which is always speaking of either a single law or ordinance, or a law (singular) as in a noun. As if to say, "the law of...", or " the statute of ....". Which, the law of God, is found in the first five books of the bible.

In the same verse, verse 9, the word "judgement", is the word mishpat (H4941 מִשְׁפָּט mishpat), which means just as it says, judgement. So, the judgement of God, found in the first five books of the bible.

So, in verse 9, He's saying that "the one who acts righteously, and walks in my law(s) and my judgements, he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God". All of those things mentioned in the preceding verses, were things He wrote in His Law (the first five books of the bible).

Jesus said lots of things about how we're supposed to act, and about salvation. I wouldn't pick just one thing out and make it the only criterion. But we're certainly required to forgive.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

If we forgive as God forgives, then we do not forgive everyone unconditionally, because God does not forgive everyone unconditionally, in other words, he does not forgive both the believer AND the non-believer unconditionally. The difference here for humans is grace and law. Under Mosaic law we notice conditional forgiveness for both, at the same time we can also see an unconditional love in Covenants such as the Noahic Covenant. Notice how I switched terms from forgiveness to love? The characteristics of the Noahic Covenant is of a tolerating nature, a long suffering love, a patient love, but not an unconditional love which excludes justice. Theologians of the past have probably identified this along the lines of 'common grace', that (for a time) God withholds justice and does not deal with all of us as sinners from the moment we knowingly transgress his law. So as humans by way of application to non-believers we can testify to the 'common grace' of God by demonstrating godly tolerance, long suffering, and patience toward the non-believer knowing where we came from, and the saving grace of God.

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Why would “unconditional Love” have to exclude justice?

My God is totally just/fair and yet extends unconditional Love and forgiving Love to everyone.

If the prodigal son does not return home the father still Loves him.

The “problem” is not with God lacking the highest imaginable degree of Love, but in our willingness to humbly accept that Love as pure charity the way it is given.

Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:

Matt. 18: 21-35

Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).

I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).

This Parable come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.

Here are some questions I have asked in the past:



The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.

The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer to all other humans we will relate to or just other Christian brothers?)

The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?

The servant is asking for “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”? (That is impossible.)

If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?

If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?

Is there any other debt since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?

Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?

In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?

Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?



Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.

Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).



I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?

If you want to discuss further let’s start with what we do agree with.





Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?

He never said this about Salvation. Was He before that talking about Salvation? Its clearly written if you just call on the name of the lord you will be saved. Now.. to say this is about salvation.. I can not find that. And how can it be? When He was talking about this .. He had not even died yet.

Then when He did.. and rose.. He as is written behold the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. So..Christ didn't cover sins...there gone. So.. if you don't forgive what is He remembering? What your talking about what was written before and after? Easy to see..

Dorothy Mae said:

Does this make forgiveness conditional?

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Sort of. In our own eyes I would say yes. In a Spiritual sense (which is what Jesus always alluded to or most of the time) it's warranted. Meaning it's justified. Why? Because everything we do on earth is mirrored in heaven and vise versa. If you read Revelation the mirror/reflection is depicted on earth with the war in heaven between God and the fallen. Genesis is also a great reflection as well. Interestingly, from beginning to end.
Matthew 6:14-15

Dorothy Mae said:

Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us?

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The first step in Salvation is recognizing who Jesus Christ is. Second is to repent of your sins to receive Christ into your life. To me that speaks loudly that repentance is very much a requirement to be forgiven as we must confess:
1 John 1:5-10

That passage is actually another one of those very well depiction of a mirror/reflection.

Dorothy Mae said:

What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong?

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It doesn't matter what was done. The most vital thing we can do is forgive, however that doesn't mean that what wrong thing was done doesn't need healing, the Bible does go into this as well. But, we must have the strength of Jesus Christ to forgive.
Colossians 3:12-17

God's Word brings healing to the mind, body and soul: Psalm 103:2-3, Proverbs 16:24

Dorothy Mae said:

How serious is it in terms of salvation?

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Dire, if one is to be quite serious about Jesus Christ being our God and Saviour.
John 14:6

Dorothy Mae said:

Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?"

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Considering that Jesus Christ is the reward, to lose Him would be devastating.
Matthew 6:21

Dorothy Mae said:

Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

What say you?

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I say to look at your own life. When you have had bitterness towards another or have been wronged by somebody, when you did not immediately forgave them, does Father speak to you and guide you to forgiving that person?

Yes, we have to forgive everyone. "Loss of rewards" is a doctrine that will land many in hell. It makes you believe it's ok to sin and be lukewarm. Absolutely not true. God says we are to be holy, as He is holy

It is so odd why people fight the Bible.
Matthew 6:15 means what it says.
If you don’t forgive, you will not be forgiven.
Whenever the Bible talks about forgiveness involving God, it’s always in relation to salvation.

For show me an example in the Bible where God does not forgive and yet they have salvation.

Dorothy Mae said:

Thank you for being polite. I am sorry you do not see the inconsistancy. I know it is hard to reconsider the OSAS position with its promise of salvation from hell no matter what you do in this life. I hope that you do not "neglect your salvation" as enough neglect and it is lost. Gifts can be lost. Seals can be broken. Future sins are not forgiven, only ones confessed and repented of once the believer is aware of them.

His blessings upon your way.

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I rest assured that my salvation is secured in Christ, and that even when I fail Christ he never fails me. His blood has purchased my eternal redemption, paid in full, and has made me a child of God.

If you want to feel unsure of where you are with God in the next hour, day, or year that is entirely up to you. If you want to see yourself trying to keep eternal life by your own merit, that's entirely up to you.

I'm going to continue to stand in awe of such a salvation that I will in turn, by the change inside me and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, continue to grow and follow Jesus to the death of my own cross I carry in this life.

HTacianas said:

Did the apostle Paul believe that his salvation was conditional:

1Co 9:27 - But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

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Paul was talking about being disqualified for service, not salvation. None of us are qualified to be saved.

Did the writer to the Romans believe the salvation of others was conditional:

Rom 11:22 - Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in Hisgoodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

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Paul wasn't talking about losing salvation. That's because being "grafted" into tree isn't a metaphor for salvation, so being cut off isn't about losing salvation. It is about participation in the blessings relative to the commonwealth of Israel.

Did Jesus believe salvation was conditional:

Mat 25:30 - ‘And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

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Those believers who are not faithful in this life, who liver for their own agenda and not for the kingdom will not go to Hell, but they will forfeit all rewards in the kingdom, and they will experience judgement in that regard. Paul refers to those who are saved as by fire when they stand before the judgement seat of Christ. It is important to remember that the parable of the talents is not about salvation, but about service and "outer darkness" in this particular context isn't Hell.

But directly to your question, see Matthew 24:48-51.

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Evil servants, in that parable, represent unbelievers, not believers.

Dorothy Mae said:

Jesus said that more than once that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. My question is this. Does this make forgiveness conditional? Does it mean we do not have to be forgiven of sins to be saved if we choose not to forgive those who sin against us? What do various ones of you think about the very clear promise/threat regarding forgiving those who do us wrong? How serious is it in terms of salvation? Does it mean merely "loss of rewards?" Jesus said we will not be forgiven. That is not talking about rewards as no one thinks being forgiven is a reward.

What say you?

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Forgiveness and salvation are two different things. Jesus isn't saying that if we fail to forgive, we will lose salvation. He is saying that we will not experience the peace of God's forgiveness so long as we harbor unforgiveness toward others. If salvation depends on us forgiving everyone, it would make us and not Jesus, responsible for our salvation. And to be honest, can any of us say with 100% certainty that we have forgiven everyone in our entire lives that have done us wrong? Do we want to make our eternal destiny conditional upon our own efforts and merit in that regard?

Jesus is not talking about salvation, but about forgiveness and our experience of God's forgiveness in our lives on a daily basis.

Dorothy Mae said:

The only comment I want to make is that your signature tells of a Christian life that your theology totally destroys.

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Wrong. My signature is talking about the need to actually live the Christian life. Nothing I said contradicts that.

Every warning including the OP, that of if we do not forgive others we will not be forgiven, is relegated to mere rewards afterwards. The motivation to do what your signature says is gone. I mean, do you know what those rewards are? Are they worth the sacrifice the signature lays out if no one knows what they are?

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My point is that the forgiveness that Jesus is referring is about the daily experience of forgiveness. Jesus is not saying that God is going to take away the forgiveness we were granted when we were saved. We need to forgive others on a daily basis in order to being forgiven by God on a daily basis, to experience His peace. Salvation is not what Jesus had in view. I don't think you really understand my signature in the light of this conversation and in the light what I am talking about.