Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[stuart lawrence]

The "them" with whom Paul reasoned were the Jews in the town of Berea. You're not Jewish by religion - your info says "christian" - so Paul's practise with Jews doesn't directly apply in this circumstance. As for why I think it is heresy, that would be because the Christians of long ago investigated it and declared it heresy.

Well if scholars and theologians declared anything heretical I wouldn't take much notice.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age.......

1cor1:20

 

[Darren J. Clark]

The "them" with whom Paul reasoned were the Jews in the town of Berea. You're not Jewish by religion - your info says "christian" - so Paul's practise with Jews doesn't directly apply in this circumstance. As for why I think it is heresy, that would be because the Christians of long ago investigated it and declared it heresy.

Which ancient creed forbids annihilationism? Besides, if you are Evangelical arguing not to reason from Scripture because that verse is about Paul and the Jews is irrelevant. Evangelicals always try to establish what the Scriptures do teach on a given doctrine. If you aren't Evangelical then please note Mark Corbett is Evangelical which means any creed or previous church attitude regarding hell is moot if he can show annihilationism is better attested in Scripture than other doctrines in hell. To Evangelicals Scripture trumps creed. If you want to offer a persuasive argument to Mark you are going to have to address the Scriptures.

 

[GingerBeer]

Which ancient creed forbids annihilationism? Besides, if you are Evangelical arguing not to reason from Scripture because that verse is about Paul and the Jews is irrelevant. Evangelicals always try to establish what the Scriptures do teach on a given doctrine. If you aren't Evangelical then please note Mark Corbett is Evangelical which means any creed or previous church attitude regarding hell is moot if he can show annihilationism is better attested in Scripture than other doctrines in hell. To Evangelicals Scripture trumps creed. If you want to offer a persuasive argument to Mark you are going to have to address the Scriptures.

I am not an evangelical. And what Christians said in the past has just as much validity as what Christians say now if it is true.

 

[Mark Corbett]

A minister once said: . . . Live forever with God, or without him

Stuart, thanks for sharing some thoughts.

Us ministers (I happen to be one) say a lot of things. A minister saying something does not make it automatically true. We should be like the Bereans, who "examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so" (Acts 17:11 CSB).

You refer to a minister saying "Live forever with God, or without him." In the OP I shared many scripture passages which show why this type of statement is wrong. Where does the Bible ever state that anyone will live forever without God?

I don't mean to say that it's wrong to quote other Christians, including ministers and teachers. I am inviting you to examine the Scriptures together with me and others to see if what "they" say is true (and to see if what I say is true!).

 

[woobadooba]

Now, we might wonder about the “negative side” of conditional immorality. God holds out hope through gracious promises for those who believe in Christ. He also gives warnings of the tragic consequences for those who do not believe:

Found a typo: you accidentally put the word "immorality" instead of "immortality".

Great post, by the way! I fully agree with your conclusion that the Bible teaches conditional immortality.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Stuart, thanks for sharing some thoughts.

Us ministers (I happen to be one) say a lot of things. A minister saying something does not make it automatically true. We should be like the Bereans, who "examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so" (Acts 17:11 CSB).

You refer to a minister saying "Live forever with God, or without him." In the OP I shared many scripture passages which show why this type of statement is wrong. Where does the Bible ever state that anyone will live forever without God?

I don't mean to say that it's wrong to quote other Christians, including ministers and teachers. I am inviting you to examine the Scriptures together with me and others to see if what "they" say is true (and to see if what I say is true!).

Thing is, the Bible is a big book. We can all quote scripture to support our particular view can't we.
But to be honest, this isn't a subject that interests me enough to do that.
Concerning what the minister said. Sometimes people say things in sermons that just resonate with you. You have peace and conviction it is the truth, a reassurance if you like.
And that minister could, as you can support his beliefs with scripture.

 

[woobadooba]

But to be honest, this isn't a subject that interests me enough to do that.

Does knowing the truth about the character of God interest you?

 

[woobadooba]

...what Christians said in the past has just as much validity as what Christians say now if it is true.

Biblical truth isn't determined by majority vote. According to Jesus, the majority of people professing to be His followers are not on the right track.

Matthew 7:13-14 NKJV "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

Matthew 24:11-12 NKJV "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold."

 

[Mark Corbett]

Found a typo: you accidentally put the word "immorality" instead of "immortality".

Great post, by the way! I fully agree with your conclusion that the Bible teaches conditional immortality.

Thanks for catching that. By God's grace, I don't want to be immoral under any conditions!!!

 

[dqhall]

What do you think?
Do you believe that everyone is immortal no matter what?
How does your view on immortality influence your view on Hell?
Do you believe the Bible teaches Annihilationism, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Universalism?
Why?

I recall Jesus teaching something that is close to unconditional love:
Luke 6:35 (WEB) But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.

In this case being a child of God is conditional on one lending expecting nothing in return. I suppose giving food to the poor/hungry is like lending and not expecting anything in return. Not all are called to give everything away. Knowing what to give and what to keep requires wisdom and divine inspiration.

God will give to a person and be kind to the wicked up to a certain point. I do not think God wants to give unlimited mercy to those who cruelly mistreat his servants. I did not read about Jesus torturing or tormenting people, thus cannot believe in eternal torture. I did read Jesus offered healing and salvation. Not all had faith or belief enough to receive it.

I should not obsess about eternity, but keep my mind on today's tasks. Matthew 6:34 (KJV) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

 

[JLB777]

God’s Word teaches us what to believe. We learn specific truths from the Bible, sometimes called “doctrines”, or more simply “beliefs”. The Bible also teaches us to think like God thinks. The more we read and listen to His Word, the more our thought patterns become like His. In this opening post I will write about a specific belief called “conditional immortality” and will also try to help you see how the Bible trains us to think in patterns consistent with this belief.

Conditional immortality is a doctrine based on the Bible which says that people will live forever only under certain conditions. This doctrine can be seen quite clearly in many verses which discuss eternal life. In these verses a condition is either explicitly stated or else strongly implied. After this paragraph are some examples. Don’t rush through them. This is God’s Word and you will benefit by reading them slowly and thinking about them even if they are familiar to you:

We can see from these examples that God, through His Word, conditions us to think of eternal life (immortality) not as something that all humans automatically have no matter what, but rather as a special gift from God which depends on us meeting a condition: namely faith in Jesus Christ.

Sometimes, the condition given is that we live the kind of life and make the kind of decisions which demonstrate that we really do believe in Jesus. In these cases, there is still a “condition” and there is still “immortality”, but the condition is stated as an evidence of faith in Christ rather than simply faith itself. Here are two examples:

If you would like to see a few more verses where this pattern of conditional immortality can be seen, look up these verses and see if you can identify the condition and the immortality:

John 3:15, John 4:14, John 6:47, Romans 2:7, Romans 5:21, Titus 3:7, 1 John 5:11

There are other verses, but you have seen enough to see how clear and consistent this pattern is. We will live forever only by God’s grace which we receive only if we have faith in Jesus. Our faith is in a Savior who changes how we live.

Now, we might wonder about the “negative side” of conditional immorality. God holds out hope through gracious promises for those who believe in Christ. He also gives warnings of the tragic consequences for those who do not believe:

Consistency and Inconsistency

One of the many signs that the Bible is inspired by God is that it is consistent in what it teaches. This is true even though, from a human point of view, the Bible was written by many authors over a period of more than 1,400 years. The doctrine of conditional immortality is an example of Biblical consistency. On the one hand, from Genesis to Revelation the Bible never says that all people are immortal. It never says that the unrighteous will live forever. On the other hand, the Bible consistently offers eternal life to those who put their faith in Christ. “Conditional Immortality” is seen consistently throughout Scripture.

While the Bible is 100% consistent, we are not. The Bible is perfect, but our understanding of it is flawed. Even as Christians who really believe the Bible is God’s inerrant Word, and who really have put our faith in Jesus, and who really seek God’s truth, we still have errors mixed into our understanding. One sign of an imperfect understanding of the Bible is when part of what we believe is not consistent with the rest of what we believe. Another sign of misunderstanding is when something we believe requires us to talk in ways that are different from the way the Bible talks. Here is an example:

Can you see how the slogan on the t-shirt is inconsistent with the consistent Bible teaching about conditional immortality?

It’s not just t-shirts and bumper stickers that contain this inconsistent way of thinking. Good, godly, Christian pastors, authors, teachers, and others often think in terms of UN-conditional immortality. In other words, they believe and talk as if all people will live forever whether they are saved or not.

Seeing the relationship between the doctrine of conditional immortality and the doctrine of the final fate of the unrighteous clarifies the problem:

What do you think?
Do you believe that everyone is immortal no matter what?
How does your view on immortality influence your view on Hell?
Do you believe the Bible teaches Annihilationism, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Universalism?
Why?

This post is slightly modified from a post on my blog.

I definitely believe in conditional Immortality.

The condition for immortality is believe.

However believe means so much more than our modern day definition.

At the same time, the ability to believe is a process and grows with spiritual maturity.


Believe = commit trust, obey


Unbelief is Disobedience.

Same Greek word.


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Adam chose to believe Satan rather than God, so He obeyed Satan and disobeyed God.

• Jesus said, why do you call Me Lord, but do not do what I say?

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49

• Our Lord is the one we obey, whether sin in our flesh, or the Spirit of Christ within.

I will address the other part of this thread, in another post.




JLB

 

[Mark Corbett]

I should not obsess about eternity, but keep my mind on today's tasks. Matthew 6:34 (KJV) Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Thanks for your kindly worded comment (only some of which is quoted) and your thoughts. It is indeed very important for us to focus on ways to show love to people right here and now. You rightly point out that we need to express love in practical ways. Amen!

At the same time, I believe that thinking about eternity can and should actually help us to be strengthened and motivated to show love in sacrificial ways here and now. Just five days ago I started a thread about this. You can see it here:

How Believing in Eternal Life Can Make You Wise

 

[SkyWriting]

The unsaved spirit is not immortal, because it has not been born again, but it does not die when the body does. It goes to the grave. So the Rich Man and Lazarus story is a moot point seeing as they have not gone through the resurrection yet. But it does show the consciousness of the spirit. Another term is outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The resurrection is when they will be judged before God, and cast into the everlasting lake of fire that was made for the immortal Satan and his angels. But because man is mortal until born again, those who are cast into the lake of fire will simply perish. IMO

Ok, but there is no weeping or gnashing or darkness in the story. Any other ideas?

 

[SkyWriting]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand how this answers the question you are attempting to answer. As the text you've bolded indicates, this story, whether to be taken literally or otherwise, is set in Hades—the underworld, the above of the dead, the so-called intermediate state—not in hell as the place of final punishment following the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.

Not where people are sleeping then? It's getting complicated. The trip to hell has layovers. Why is that?

 

[Adstar]

Annihilationionism is a sweet sounding doctrine but the Bible is clear that those who are cast into the eternal lake of fire will be in torment for ever and ever..

We read in the Book of revelation about the beast and the false prophet who upon the second coming of Jesus are captured and cast into the eternal lake of fire.. Then there is a period of 1000 years where satan is bound in chains in the bottomless pit.. At the end of the 1000 years satan is released and goes out into the world to deceive people and bring the army of Gog and Magog to Jerusalem to attack it.. God then destroys this army and then the final judgement happens and satan is then cast into the lake of fire.. We read that at this point..

Revelation 20: KJV
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So here we see that when satan is cast into the eternal lake of fire the beast and the false prophet ( a man) are there.. They have been in the lake of fire 1000 years and have no been Annihilated but have been in tormented for all that time.. So the teaching that people are destroyed in the Lake of fire is just a ear tickling doctrine for people who have a problem with the eternal lake of fire being and eternal thing..

Oh and this earlier scripture reveals the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire..

Revelation 19:KJV
19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. {20} And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. {21} And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

 

[SkyWriting]

@SkyWriting posted is an illustration of pre judgement day suffering of the wicked. Where is there an illustration by Christ in support of annihilation as final punishment?[/QUOTE]

I must quote myself, "All important tenets are documented by
multiple authors spread over time."

 

[Mark Corbett]

Annihilationionism is a sweet sounding doctrine but the Bible is clear that those who are cast into the eternal lake of fire will be in torment for ever and ever..

We read in the Book of revelation . . .

Adstar, thanks so much for asking about the passages in the book of Revelation. These passages were initially the most difficult for me to fit into a Conditionalist understanding of the Bible. That drove me to a long, in depth study of the book of Revelation. I feel that I now have a much better understanding of how the visions in Revelation fit into the rest of the Bible's teaching on Conditional Immortality/Annihilationism.

Because interpreting Revelation is complex (for any issue, not just annihilationism), I've started a new thread focused on this. I think you'll find a fairly detailed answer to your comments there. The new thread is here:

What is the 2nd Death?

Feel free to either read it and come back here to discuss it, or to discuss it there. I have a slight personal preference to discuss the specific role of the book of Revelation in the new thread linked to above, but either way is fine with me. Grace and Peace, Mark

 

[woobadooba]

Annihilationionism is a sweet sounding doctrine but the Bible is clear that those who are cast into the eternal lake of fire will be in torment for ever and ever..

The word "forever" doesn't always mean without end. How long was Jonah in the belly of the fish? According to the Bible, it was three days and nights (Jonah 1:7). Yet Jonah used the word "forever" in describing what he had experienced (2:6). And how about Sodom, it is said that it suffered the punishment of eternal fire (Jude 1:7). Do you still see it burning today?

Words can have different meanings depending on the context in which they are used.

What proof do you have to show that John's usage of the word "forever" in Rev. 20:10, means eternal torment / suffering without end?

 

[Mark Corbett]

I must quote myself, "All important tenets are documented by
multiple authors spread over time."

I'm not sure what the context was for your quote of yourself, but I agree with it. In fact, the principle you mention is part of what led me to change from belief in eternal conscious torment to belief in annihilationism. I see support for annihilationism all throughout the Bible. Here is just a sample:

NIV Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

NIV Psalm 37:10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.

NIV Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

NIV Malachi 4:3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.

NIV Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

NIV John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

NIV Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NIV Philippians 3:19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things.

NIV 2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

NIV Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

From Genesis to Revelation, I find support for Conditional Immortality/Annihilationism all throughout the Bible!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Does knowing the truth about the character of God interest you?

Well the gospel of grace, which reveals much of Gods character interests me. But on these kind of websites, I find many focus on other subjects of lesser importance. They seem to struggle understanding the more important topic