Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[Chris Date]

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand how this answers the question you are attempting to answer. As the text you've bolded indicates, this story, whether to be taken literally or otherwise, is set in Hades—the underworld, the above of the dead, the so-called intermediate state—not in hell as the place of final punishment following the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.

For further reading:

• Chris Date, "Lazarus and the Rich Man: It's Not About Final Punishment," Rethinking Hell [blog], posted June 23, 2012, Lazarus and the Rich Man: It’s Not About Final Punishment
• Joseph Dear, "Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Luke 16:19–31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)," Rethinking Hell [blog], posted June 25, 2016, Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Luke 16:19-31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)
• Chris Loewen, "Hypocrisy, Not Hell: The Polemic Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man," Rethinking Hell [blog], posted May 16, 2017, http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2017/...e-polemic-parable-of-lazarus-and-the-rich-man

 

[Dirk1540]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand how this answers the question you are attempting to answer. As the text you've bolded indicates, this story, whether to be taken literally or otherwise, is set in Hades—the underworld, the above of the dead, the so-called intermediate state—not in hell as the place of final punishment following the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.

Good point, I didn't even think of that. All history has to come to a complete close first before Hell is even a factor, nice catch! I look forward to reading your attached articles thanks.

 

[Darren J. Clark]

Oh, hopefully nowhere lol, I'm not good at this, I actually came back to Christianity not long ago. I'm just thinking out loud, I know I've been challenged on eternal torment.

...this is why I preferred to shift over to this thread and leave the one I started, let someone with more experience with it take the lead. Before I came back to Christianity I became sold on this view, Dr Fudge's material. But even so that was a little while ago and I'm in need of some refreshing on my material.

I hear you. It is ok to think out loud. I do that too. And I am learning more each day how to express my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Dirk1540]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand how this answers the question you are attempting to answer. As the text you've bolded indicates, this story, whether to be taken literally or otherwise, is set in Hades—the underworld, the above of the dead, the so-called intermediate state—not in hell as the place of final punishment following the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.

Wow now you really got me thinking, enough to comment on same post twice, hey so this is clearly pre-Hell...and THIS is the spot where we're told about torment! (Light bulb going off lol), so is this actually proof then of when the 'Divine Justice of the unsaved' takes place? Before Hell?

As I just posted elsewhere tonight, talking about how relativity has been proven, how 1 second could be like 100 years...so even if you were literally killed right before the 2nd coming of Christ, and you were literally one of the most sick & twisted sinner of all time, you still could experience quite a long torment session thanks to time relativity!! Just my thoughts right now as I take this in.

 

[Darren J. Clark]

Wow now you really got me thinking, enough to comment on same post twice, hey so this is clearly pre-Hell...and THIS is the spot where we're told about torment! (Light bulb going off lol), so is this actually proof then of when the 'Divine Justice of the unsaved' takes place? Before Hell?

As I just posted elsewhere tonight, talking about how relativity has been proven, how 1 second could be like 100 years...so even if you were literally killed right before the 2nd coming of Christ, and you were literally one of the most sick & twisted sinner of all time, you still could experience quite a long torment session thanks to time relativity!! Just my thoughts right now as I take this in.

No, the picture is more about the agony of not being able to reverse the situation than it is about God inflicting agony on the Rich Man.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The same illustration I always use:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’
‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

The unsaved spirit is not immortal, because it has not been born again, but it does not die when the body does. It goes to the grave. So the Rich Man and Lazarus story is a moot point seeing as they have not gone through the resurrection yet. But it does show the consciousness of the spirit. Another term is outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The resurrection is when they will be judged before God, and cast into the everlasting lake of fire that was made for the immortal Satan and his angels. But because man is mortal until born again, those who are cast into the lake of fire will simply perish. IMO

 

[Dartman]

The unsaved spirit is not immortal, because it has not been born again, but it does not die when the body does. It goes to the grave.

The word "spirit" in both OT and NT USUALLY references the intellect/mentality of the being. However, in a good number of texts, it references our breath.
Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God, who gave it.

What God gave is the breath.

So the Rich Man and Lazarus story is a moot point seeing as they have not gone through the resurrection yet. But it does show the consciousness of the spirit.

The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not a discourse on death, it is a parable teaching the punishment of Israel for rejecting Jehovah, and Jesus.

Another term is outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The resurrection is when they will be judged before God, and cast into the everlasting lake of fire that was made for the immortal Satan and his angels. But because man is mortal until born again, those who are cast into the lake of fire will simply perish. IMO

It is VERY true those who are cast into the lake of fire will simply perish. They will be "burned up", and "ashes" (Mal 4:1-3)

 

[redleghunter]

Just to clarify my position (which I believe is the position which most evangelical conditionalists hold who have studied the topic much), I do not believe the punishment of the unrighteous will ever end. I believe the punishment (at least the main punishment) IS death (Romans 6:23). They will remain dead forever.

I would say again, a lot of effort is going into not looking at the plain words, even in the Greek, to make punishment equivalent to annihilation of body and soul of the condemned.

Eternal and everlasting are the same Greek word and clear in both languages. How aionios is definitely eternal meaning never ending for those in the Book of Life, yet somehow becomes finite when applied to punishment is a quite puzzling proposition.

What do you think the purpose of annihilation serves a God Who Judges humanity based on the acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ?

There are a couple of other verses which use aionios which may help illustrate the Conditionalist interpretation of Matthew 25:46.

NIV Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal (aionios) judgment.

Yes judgment is the ruling. After judgment comes the "sentence." The fact aionios appears in other books of the Bible does not necessarily support your theory in Matthew 25. Which I will add is unconvincing.

I had a discussion weeks ago with a soul sleep advocate who tried to skip through the Bible to find the right words to support his theory. This is not exegesis.

"Eternal judgment" does not refer to a process of judging which continues forever. The judging occurs on the day of judgment, a limited time period. However, once the judgment is made its results remain forever (another strong argument against universalism!). A billion years later God will not change the judgment. It is an eternal judg-ment, not an eternal judg-ing.

Brother Mark, this is an unsubstantiated opinion. The Judgment is the ruling. I agree. However, the sentence is still carried out. Your theory is there is a period of punishment and then a capital punishment of the body and soul.

Similarly, eternal punishment does not have to be a process of punishing which takes forever to carry out. The process of people being destroyed in body and soul (Matthew 10:28), perishing (John 3:16), and being burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6) requires a finite amount of time (which involves some conscious suffering). But once carried out, it will never be reversed. For the unrighteous there is a "second death", but there is NOT a second resurrection. They will remain dead forever. It is an eternal punish-ment, but not an eternal punish-ing.

I have to be honest this is the first time on this subject where eternal is given a finite definition.

 

[redleghunter]

Having said that, I do not deny that annihilationism has an emotional appeal compared to eternal torment. However, that does not make it untrue. Having our sins paid for by Jesus also has an emotional appeal, and occasionally atheists accuse us of believing this simply because it makes us feel good. For me, that's not true. Sure, it feels good. It feels great! But I have other reasons for believing it than my feelings.

I respect your views and hope to gain a better understanding.

 

[redleghunter]

As a Conditionalist I can say that the importance just comes back to our belief that "annihilationism" is well attested in the Bible. We like to talk about our perspective but don't want to imply that it is salvation issue or that eternal conscious punishment is a heresy or worth dividing over. That is why we like irenic discussions on the topic. We don't demand that people just drop the traditional view on hell but just want to discuss the evidence.

I agree. We can debate without poking each other's eyes out. We can break bread and disagree.

I do see a potential issue with evangelism. The plain Big Bold Red Letters of Christ in Matthew 25 plainly use eternal for Life with Christ and eternal for punishment after judgment.

In my opinion (again my opinion) for a post-modern Western secular society, annihilation after a brief punishment is an alluring proposition. This same society I speak of has a huge problem with respecting life from conception to elder years and looks to suicide as a way out of depression.

Now you could easily rebut my opinion and point out many make the same argument about saved by Grace and a person can think they could sin all they wanted and are covered. This would be an antinomian straw man argument of course, but my point has a lot more flesh on the bones. I'll explain.

Our post modern secular society seeks comfort and fleeting happiness. Where God offers pick up your cross and follow me and be joyous even in your sufferings. We are to surely mourn our Christian dead however be bathed and comforted they will rise again. A joyous time yet we mourn not as the heathen do.

Back to the post modern secular mindset. You and I know as brothers in Christ their mindset provides no hope. Many young and old seek out medication for every ailment to ease any pain physical, mental or emotional. They seek as much ease from this fallen world as possible because they have no other hope. Which I know pains me to observe as much as it does you.

Annihilationism is in my opinion the birth child of post modernism infiltrating our Church at large. I think it is a response to secular criticism of eternal punishment by a God who is 'a mean monster.' I've seen atheists attack Christians with this claim often. You see them say often "if God is going to punish me for eternity and others just because we did not accept Jesus, then I don't want any part of such a monster of a god."

It is this mindset which God will truly judge. And we know from Revelation no matter how many times God shows His mighty Power, this mindset blasphemes Him and their hearts and minds continue to curse Him.

Opinion again...this is why I think Annihilationism is gaining popularity in evangelism. A God who metes out a short punishment and then permanent non existence is a more palatable God to our secular post modern mindset.

You may not agree with me and that is fine and we can break bread on Sunday loving the Lord's Table.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Do you believe the Bible teaches Annihilationism, Eternal Conscious Torment, or Universalism?
Why?

I have gone back and forth on Conditional Immortality for some time and am now in the Conditional Immortality camp.

Can you tell me what you think of the Beast and False Prophet being tormented forever? That has been one of the difficult hurdles for me.

I would also appreciate your opinion on Rev. 14:11.

God bless,
Mick

 

[redleghunter]

Eternal hell was NOT made for man, but only for Satan and his angels, as it is not God's will that any should perish, and the fallen angel's torture will be forever because they are immortal. However, man only becomes immortal if their spirits are born again. We go from death to life. From Adams sin, to life in Christ. The unsaved dead will be resurrected to face their judgment, and if their names are not found written in the book of Life, they will be burned up like the chaff they are in the eternal lake of fire.

Revelation 21: NKJV

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[stuart lawrence]

A minister once said:
Hell is a place where Gods presence does not exist.
Seen this way, I think the idea God delights in sending you to hell for eternity so you languish in eternal flames is the wrong way to view the subject.
Man has a choice, to accept eternal life and live in heaven, or reject Christ, and therefore spend eternity outside of Gods presence.
Imagine a world where Gods presence does not exist at all. A true hell where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Eternal torment of the soul, like a fire raging inside of you that cannot be quenched.
It is man's choice.
Live forever with God, or without him

 

[redleghunter]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I understand how this answers the question you are attempting to answer. As the text you've bolded indicates, this story, whether to be taken literally or otherwise, is set in Hades—the underworld, the above of the dead, the so-called intermediate state—not in hell as the place of final punishment following the resurrection and judgment of the wicked.

For further reading:

• Chris Date, "Lazarus and the Rich Man: It's Not About Final Punishment," Rethinking Hell [blog], posted June 23, 2012, Lazarus and the Rich Man: It’s Not About Final Punishment
• Joseph Dear, "Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Luke 16:19–31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)," Rethinking Hell [blog], posted June 25, 2016, Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Luke 16:19-31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus)
• Chris Loewen, "Hypocrisy, Not Hell: The Polemic Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man," Rethinking Hell [blog], posted May 16, 2017, http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2017/...e-polemic-parable-of-lazarus-and-the-rich-man

Yet the parable @SkyWriting posted is an illustration of pre judgement day suffering of the wicked. Where is there an illustration by Christ in support of annihilation as final punishment?

 

[GingerBeer]

What do you think?

I think that "conditional immortality" is a heresy condemned by Christians long ago.

 

[redleghunter]

The unsaved spirit is not immortal, because it has not been born again, but it does not die when the body does. It goes to the grave. So the Rich Man and Lazarus story is a moot point seeing as they have not gone through the resurrection yet. But it does show the consciousness of the spirit. Another term is outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The resurrection is when they will be judged before God, and cast into the everlasting lake of fire that was made for the immortal Satan and his angels. But because man is mortal until born again, those who are cast into the lake of fire will simply perish. IMO

Reading your post leads me to think you don't believe we have souls.

 

[Darren J. Clark]

I agree. We can debate without poking each other's eyes out. We can break bread and disagree.

I do see a potential issue with evangelism. The plain Big Bold Red Letters of Christ in Matthew 25 plainly use eternal for Life with Christ and eternal for punishment after judgment.

In my opinion (again my opinion) for a post-modern Western secular society, annihilation after a brief punishment is an alluring proposition. This same society I speak of has a huge problem with respecting life from conception to elder years and looks to suicide as a way out of depression.

Now you could easily rebut my opinion and point out many make the same argument about saved by Grace and a person can think they could sin all they wanted and are covered. This would be an antinomian straw man argument of course, but my point has a lot more flesh on the bones. I'll explain.

Our post modern secular society seeks comfort and fleeting happiness. Where God offers pick up your cross and follow me and be joyous even in your sufferings. We are to surely mourn our Christian dead however be bathed and comforted they will rise again. A joyous time yet we mourn not as the heathen do.

Back to the post modern secular mindset. You and I know as brothers in Christ their mindset provides no hope. Many young and old seek out medication for every ailment to ease any pain physical, mental or emotional. They seek as much ease from this fallen world as possible because they have no other hope. Which I know pains me to observe as much as it does you.

Annihilationism is in my opinion the birth child of post modernism infiltrating our Church at large. I think it is a response to secular criticism of eternal punishment by a God who is 'a mean monster.' I've seen atheists attack Christians with this claim often. You see them say often "if God is going to punish me for eternity and others just because we did not accept Jesus, then I don't want any part of such a monster of a god."

It is this mindset which God will truly judge. And we know from Revelation no matter how many times God shows His mighty Power, this mindset blasphemes Him and their hearts and minds continue to curse Him.

Opinion again...this is why I think Annihilationism is gaining popularity in evangelism. A God who metes out a short punishment and then permanent non existence is a more palatable God to our secular post modern mindset.

You may not agree with me and that is fine and we can break bread on Sunday loving the Lord's Table.

Thanks for your thoughts. Historically annihilationism can be shown to have existed well before the rise of post-modernism. Glenn Peoples has a great podcast on annihilationism in the early church this at rethinkinghell.com and it is easily verifiable that annihilationism was very popular in the 19th century. It wasn't popular because of postmodernism. It may be popular now in the post-modern era but how does one prove causality? I am committed to Conditionalism (annihilationism fits into this) but I can tell you that I don't hold to this doctrine because of sentimentality but because I see it is the most exegetically sound version of hell. Others like Chris Date (rethinkinghell.com) are the same. We would switch back if the exegesis took us that way. Besides, everyone is affected by their culture when they read their Bible so I am not sure what it would prove if it could be shown that post-modernism did cause the popularity of annihilationism in this day. Just my thoughts.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I think that "conditional immortality" is a heresy condemned by Christians long ago.

Well, I asked what you thought, and you answered. But now I would request that you explain why you believe Conditional Immortality is heresy.

The Bibles says that Paul "reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2). Are you willing to do the same? I certainly was reasoning from the Bible in the OP, and I'm thankful that others, even if they disagree with my view, have also been reasoning from the Bible. Will you join us?

 

[GingerBeer]

Well, I asked what you thought, and you answered. But now I would request that you explain why you believe Conditional Immortality is heresy.

The Bibles says that Paul "reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2). Are you willing to do the same? I certainly was reasoning from the Bible in the OP, and I'm thankful that others, even if they disagree with my view, have also been reasoning from the Bible. Will you join us?

The "them" with whom Paul reasoned were the Jews in the town of Berea. You're not Jewish by religion - your info says "christian" - so Paul's practise with Jews doesn't directly apply in this circumstance. As for why I think it is heresy, that would be because the Christians of long ago investigated it and declared it heresy.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Yet the parable @SkyWriting posted is an illustration of pre judgement day suffering of the wicked. Where is there an illustration by Christ in support of annihilation as final punishment?

You ask an excellent question. I think the following parable, taken at face value and also considered in light of Christ's own explanation of it's meaning, is an illustration in support of annihilation as final punishment:

Matthew 13: 24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28 "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29 "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

The Greek word translated "to be burned" is katakaio. It refers to burning something completely. I recently wrote a blog post where I explain the meaning of katakaio and another Greek word, tephroo, which means to burn to ashes (used in 2 Peter 2:6). If you're interested in more detail, you may read my post here (but please come back here to Christian Forums to discuss it):

Downburned and Ashified, the Annihilation of the Unrighteous