Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[Dartman]

The native Greek speaking early church fathers I quoted prove you wrong.

Sorry, "early church fathers" are irrelevant. If you have Scripture, please provide it... but we have already seen the Scriptures you claim support your theory, and they simply do not, ESPECIALLY when considered in the context of ALL Scripture.

It is the basic premise of OT and NT. The righteous are given eternal life, but the wicked will NOT inhabit the earth, they will return to the grave/sheol.

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.
Ps 9:17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God. NIV

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Scriptures are VERY clear, the wicked ..... ALL the wicked, are going to be "burned up", "ashes", "destroyed", "return to the grave/sheol". They are going to be equally dead, forever.

So, how can the Scriptures state some will be "beaten with few stripes" .... while others are "beaten with many stripes"? (Luke 12:47,48) ... or, the Scriptures state one punishment will be worse than another ... 2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I am convinced, the answer is not; one will be deader than the other.
I am also convinced the "beating" isn't literal.
I believe the answer is, all sinners will confess;
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

I am ALSO convinced, the confession will be genuine.
A genuine confession requires an accurate understanding of guilt.
An accurate understanding of guilt requires seeing from God's perspective.
It appears the sinner will be granted a clear mind, with clear understanding of God's view of their sins.
The result of this understanding is shame.
No wonder there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
No wonder greater guilt = greater punishment/beating.

Every tongue does not confess
Until the afterlife or Jesus return.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sorry, "early church fathers" are irrelevant. If you have Scripture, please provide it... but we have already seen the Scriptures you claim support your theory, and they simply do not, ESPECIALLY when considered in the context of ALL Scripture.

It is the basic premise of OT and NT. The righteous are given eternal life, but the wicked will NOT inhabit the earth, they will return to the grave/sheol.

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.
Ps 9:17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God. NIV

We all return to the earth.

 

[Dartman]

We all return to the earth.

It is true that the righteous accompany Jesus from the clouds to the earth, but the righteous NEVER ... EVER .... go to God's presence in heaven. They are sleeping in the grave/dust, waiting for the resurrection of life;

Dan 12:1,2, John 5:28,29, 1 Cor 15:20-23, 1 Thes 4:13-18

 

[Der Alte]

Sorry, "early church fathers" are irrelevant. If you have Scripture, please provide it... but we have already seen the Scriptures you claim support your theory, and they simply do not, ESPECIALLY when considered in the context of ALL Scripture.
It is the basic premise of OT and NT. The righteous are given eternal life, but the wicked will NOT inhabit the earth, they will return to the grave/sheol.
Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.
Ps 9:17 The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God. NIV

What is irrelevant are the unsupported opinions of 21st century believers who could not parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it. And OBTW my Bible has 31,172 verses that is only one verse. I will take the words of Jesus over a Psalm any day..

Matthew 25:46
(46) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​

I think I have established in this thread that "eternal" in that verse means "eternal." Jesus is recorded in the NT as using the word death 17 times. The word translated "punishment" does not mean death.

 

[Der Alte]

...
It is the basic premise of OT and NT. The righteous are given eternal life, but the wicked will NOT inhabit the earth, they will return to the grave/sheol. .

In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

​

 

[Dartman]

What is irrelevant are the unsupported opinions of 21st century believers who could not parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it. And OBTW my Bible has 31,172 verses that is only one verse. I will take the words of Jesus over a Psalm any day..

Matthew 25:46
(46) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​

I think I have established in this thread that "eternal" in that verse means "eternal." Jesus is recorded in the NT as using the word death 17 times. The word translated "punishment" does not mean death.

1) The Bible Student must HARMONIZE Jesus' words with the Psalms .... like Jesus did. You do realize he QUOTED from Psalms, right?
2) You are merely misunderstanding Jesus in this text. The punishment is destruction. That destruction is eternal. That destruction is the wicked RETURNING to Sheol/the grave. See? THAT'S how you reconcile Jesus AND Psalms.
3) You keep thinking these verses say "eternal PUNISHING".
They don't.

 

[Dartman]

In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

The text is figurative. It is a prophecy against the king of Babylon. Jehovah Himself says the dead are not alive;
Isa 38:1 .... Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
Jehovah Himself says the dead PERSON returns to dust;

Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

​

 

[Der Alte]

1) The Bible Student must HARMONIZE Jesus' words with the Psalms .... like Jesus did. You do realize he QUOTED from Psalms, right?

I could not agree more but you have it backwards. We don't reinterpret the words of Jesus to make them support one's assumptions/presuppositions about OT passages. Who is the Lord Jesus or David? Should we not interpret the words of the prophets and disciples to harmonize with the words of Jesus not the wrong way round?

2) You are merely misunderstanding Jesus in this text. The punishment is destruction. That destruction is eternal. That destruction is the wicked RETURNING to Sheol/the grave. See? THAT'S how you reconcile Jesus AND Psalms.

Nonsense. If Jesus had meant "destruction" He would have used the word for destruction. Jesus used the word for "destruction" 11 times in the gospels. But unfortunately Jesus did not use the word for "destruction" in Matt 25:46, He used the word "punishment." So evidently He meant something other than "destruction." κόλασις/kolasis the word "translated" punishment occurs only twice in the NT. Once in Matt 25:46 and once in 1 Jn 4:18

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κόλασις] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

In 1 Jn 4:18 κόλασις certainly does not mean death or destruction.

3) You keep thinking these verses say "PUNISHING".
They don't.

More nonsense. Imagining a distinction which does not exist in Greek or English. If this conjecture was true the righteous would not live forever because Jesus used the noun "life" and not the verb "living."

 

[Der Alte]

The text is figurative. It is a prophecy against the king of Babylon. Jehovah Himself says the dead are not alive;
Isa 38:1 .... Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
Jehovah Himself says the dead PERSON returns to dust;
Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ah yes there is the usual heterodox dodge when scripture as written contradicts one's assumptions/presuppositions simply dismiss them as SPAM-Fig i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. Do only the unrighteous return to dust?

 

[Dartman]

1) The Bible Student must HARMONIZE Jesus' words with the Psalms .... like Jesus did. You do realize he QUOTED from Psalms, right?

I could not agree more but you have it backwards. We don't reinterpret the words of Jesus to make them support one's assumptions/presuppositions about OT passages.

No, you have attempted to make Jesus' words CANCEL the Psalms, in contrast to Jesus quoting the Psalms to establish the harmony between his teachings, and the foundation truths his God established in the OT.
AND, you are twisting Jesus' words, and then claiming that gives you the authority to contradict the rest of Scripture.

Nonsense. If Jesus had meant "destruction" He would have used the word for destruction. Jesus used the word for "destruction" 11 times in the gospels.

Of course he did, and you argue with his use of "destruction" in THOSE texts! What Jesus said in Matt 25:46 must be harmonized with all of his OTHER statements, including using "destruction" 11 times!

But unfortunately Jesus did not use the word for "destruction" in Matt 25:46, He used the word "punishment." So evidently He meant something other than "destruction."

Nope. Evidently, he meant to explain what KIND of "destruction" he had already mentioned 11 times!!

Imagining a distinction which does not exist in Greek or English. If this conjecture was true the righteous would not live forever because Jesus used the noun "life" and not the verb "living."

The problem with your example is, there IS a difference between "life" and "living", which is why both words exist in the Greek, and in English. The words are used to mean slightly different things, just like punishment, and punishing are SLIGHTLY different.
I am confident you already knew this, you just hate being corrected on the whole punishment/punishing thing, and are frustrated.

 

[Dartman]

The text is figurative. It is a prophecy against the king of Babylon. Jehovah Himself says the dead are not alive;
Isa 38:1 .... Thus saith Jehovah, Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
Jehovah Himself says the dead PERSON returns to dust;
Gen 3:19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ah yes there is the usual heterodox dodge when scripture as written contradicts one's assumptions/presuppositions simply dismiss them as SPAM-Fig i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal.

You are going to have to either:
1) get used to people pointing out the ONLY "support" texts you have are symbolic, figurative texts. Or ..
2) Actually change your doctrines to match the clear, simple, straightforward texts of Scripture!

Do only the unrighteous return to dust?

All dead things turn to dust, if they are dead long enough.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Ah yes there is the usual heterodox dodge when scripture as written contradicts one's assumptions/presuppositions simply dismiss them as SPAM-Fig i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. Do only the unrighteous return to dust?

Der Alter, I understand your concern about too easily interpreting a part of Scripture which we find difficult as symbolic. But do you think ANY Scripture passages are symbolic? If so, how do you determine which ones? Here are a few to consider:

1. In Pharaoh’s dream he sees cannibalistic cows eating other cows. Do some cows literally eat other cows?.
2. Jesus says , “I am the gate for the sheep” (John 10:7). Is He a literal gate?
3. Jesus commands us, “if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out” (Matthew 9:47). Should we literally do this?
4. Jesus tells the woman at the well that “an hour” is coming when people will worship God in Spirit and in truth (John 4:23, see ESV which has the literal translation “hour”). Did Jesus mean that people would worship God for just one literal "hour"?

 

[Der Alte]

No, you have attempted to make Jesus' words CANCEL the Psalms, in contrast to Jesus quoting the Psalms to establish the harmony between his teachings, and the foundation truths his God established in the OT.

Making an assertion does not make it true. Show me how I supposedly made the words of Jesus cancel the psalm. And I don't mean your unsupported opinion.

AND, you are twisting Jesus' words, and then claiming that gives you the authority to contradict the rest of Scripture.
Of course he did, and you argue with his use of "destruction" in THOSE texts! What Jesus said in Matt 25:46 must be harmonized with all of his OTHER statements, including using "destruction" 11 times!

Oops you should have read the 11 verses before challenging me. We were not discussing the word for "destruction/destroy" but the word for "punishment." Jesus used the word "apollumi" sometimes translated "destroy" and "perish", to refer to men killed by a falling tower, Lk 13:3,5, amputated hand, foot, eye Mt 5:29, 30, broken wineskins Mt 9:17, Lost sheep Mt 10:6, 15:24, slain evil tenants Mt 21:41, 15:2, murderers killed by a king, someone dying by the sword, Mt 25:46, losing a reward Mk 9:41, Zacharias dying in the temple, Lk 11:51, prodigal son who returned Lk 15:24, people who died in the flood Lk_17:27, not spilling wine Jn 6:12, spoiling meat Jn_6:12
.....But once again we were not discussing the word for destruction but you were trying to make the word for punishment mean "destruction." Making the claim is not proving it.

Nope. Evidently, he meant to explain what KIND of "destruction" he had already mentioned 11 times!!

Then explain why Jesus did not use the word for "destruction" but used a word which means "penal infliction:,punishment, torment." The only other occurrence of "kolasis" in the NT describes the torment that fear produces. That ain't "destruction" by any stretch.

The problem with your example is, there IS a difference between "life" and "living", which is why both words exist in the Greek, and in English. The words are used to mean slightly different things, just like punishment, and punishing are SLIGHTLY different.

Interesting theory now prove it from a Greek grammar? The definition of "punishment" is "the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense:" The "infliction or imposition" not the result. So Matt 25:46 reads "eternal infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense:"

I am confident you already knew this, you just hate being corrected on the whole punishment/punishing thing, and are frustrated.

Just saying the equivalent of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too Nuh huh!" does not make it so. I am waiting to be corrected and once again I do not mean unsupported opinion..

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter, I understand your concern about too easily interpreting a part of Scripture which we find difficult as symbolic. But do you think ANY Scripture passages are symbolic? If so, how do you determine which ones? Here are a few to consider:
1. In Pharaoh’s dream he sees cannibalistic cows eating other cows. Do some cows literally eat other cows?.
2. Jesus says , “I am the gate for the sheep” (John 10:7). Is He a literal gate?
3. Jesus commands us, “if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out” (Matthew 9:47). Should we literally do this?
4. Jesus tells the woman at the well that “an hour” is coming when people will worship God in Spirit and in truth (John 4:23, see ESV which has the literal translation “hour”). Did Jesus mean that people would worship God for just one literal "hour"?

There is an old maxim for Bible translation, "If the plain senses makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." #1, within the history of human experience we do not know of any instances of bovine cannibalism. Ergo it is figurative. #2, really? Do I even have to explain this? #3, obviously figurative because elsewhere Jesus said not to defile our bodies which is the temple of God. #4, hour is a synechdote for time. Now let us examine the three passages I quoted. Do we have any credible, eye witness evidence that the events listed did not, could not occur? And as a matter of fact the Jews believed that Isaiah 14:9-11 was factual Link: [Jewish Encyclopedia:Gehenna]\

 

[Dartman]

Making an assertion does not make it true. Show me how I supposedly made the words of Jesus cancel the psalm. And I don't mean your unsupported opinion.

No problem, I will provide YOUR unsupported opinion in stead;
In post #505 you said this; "I will take the words of Jesus over a Psalm any day.."

Oops you should have read the 11 verses before challenging me. We were not discussing the word for "destruction/destroy" but the word for "punishment." Jesus used the word "apollumi" sometimes translated "destroy" and "perish", to refer to men killed by a falling tower, Lk 13:3,5, amputated hand, foot, eye Mt 5:29, 30, broken wineskins Mt 9:17, Lost sheep Mt 10:6, 15:24, slain evil tenants Mt 21:41, 15:2, murderers killed by a king, someone dying by the sword, Mt 25:46, losing a reward Mk 9:41, Zacharias dying in the temple, Lk 11:51, prodigal son who returned Lk 15:24, people who died in the flood Lk_17:27, not spilling wine Jn 6:12, spoiling meat Jn_6:12

Yep, those work just fine. Destruction can mean all those things, and can work in all those examples. Just like Punishment can be anything from a verbal reprimand to annihilation. The punishment is the execution of the sentence. The punishing is the PROCESS of execution.
So, in a verbal reprimand, the punishing would last as long as the words were being spoken. If the punishment is grounding, the punishing would last the duration of the grounding. In a death sentence, the punishing would only last until the person is actually dead, or the process is complete.

 

[Dartman]

There is an old maxim for Bible translation, "If the plain senses makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." #1, within the history of human experience we do not know of any instances of bovine cannibalism. Ergo it is figurative. #2, really? Do I even have to explain this? #3, obviously figurative because elsewhere Jesus said not to defile our bodies which is the temple of God. #4, hour is a synechdote for time. Now let us examine the three passages I quoted. Do we have any credible, eye witness evidence that the events listed did not, could not occur? And as a matter of fact the Jews believed that Isaiah 14:9-11 was factual Link: [Jewish Encyclopedia:Gehenna]\

There are EXACTLY the same number of bovine cannibalism events, as dead people talking from the grave.
Exactly.

 

[Der Alte]

You are going to have to either:
1) get used to people pointing out the ONLY "support" texts you have are symbolic, figurative texts. Or ..

Just saying something is "symbolic, figurative" does not prove it.

2) Actually change your doctrines to match the clear, simple, straightforward texts of Scripture!

I'm not the one claiming texts are "symbolic, figurative" because they contradict someone's assumptions/presuppositions.

All dead things turn to dust, if they are dead long enough.

Not according to this psalm. Which is why I asked the question.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.​

 

[Dartman]

All dead things turn to dust, if they are dead long enough.

Not according to this psalm. Which is why I asked the question.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.​

The text in no way contradicts Jehovah's statement that people are dust, and return to dust.
Your question is moot.

 

[Der Alte]

There are EXACTLY the same number of bovine cannibalism events, as dead people talking from the grave.
Exactly.

Nobody said anything about "talking from the grave!" Have you, or do you know anyone who has, been dead and can tell us what, if anything, they experienced while they were dead? I have heard and read about people who have. Colton Burpo comes to mind.