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Featured Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    SBC, thanks for taking time to share your thoughts.

    I'm not sure why you think the statements you make above are true.

    For example, where does the Bible say "Spirits NEVER DIE"?

    It is not at all clear from the Bible that the soul and spirit are two different parts of a person such that the spirit could exist separate from the soul.

    Also, where does the Bible say that at some point after being raised to face judgment, a person's spirit will be separated from their soul and body?

    It seems to me that you have made a lot of assertions without providing any Biblical evidence. At the same time you have failed to interact directly with the large amount of Biblical evidence given in the Opening Post (OP).
     
  2. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Spirits NEVER DIE. They FOREVER have LIFE from God in them.-

    Pss 104 [4] Who maketh his angels spirits;

    Luke 20 [36]
    Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    Living Souls, (of the unfaithful) WILL have Gods LIFE departed from their soul.

    God IS Spirit and the source of ALL LIFE. Nothing has LIFE IN IT, except God IMPARTS life from Him into the thing. Demonstrated, by Body's of men, receiving LIFE from God - ie

    ALL body's brought into living, receive Life from God, via Gods Breath of Life.

    Gen 2: 7 ....breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

    CONDITIONAL....requiring BELIEF ----->

    John 14....[11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
    John 14....[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    FURTHER.....LIFE from God given to believers for their belief, receive the indwelling Spirit of God.

    John 14.....[17] Even the Spirit of truth; ....dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    John 14.... 23] Jesus said... my Father.. we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    John 14.... [26]..the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
    John 14.... [16] Father..shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    ALL Body's WILL, have their LIFE (which is BLOOD), departed from their Body.

    Lev 17....[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
    Gen 9 ....[5] ..your blood of your lives will I require; ... I require the life of man.
    Heb 9.....[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die

    God always PUTS LIFE from Him "into something". An Earthen vessel, ie called the Body of dust.

    Pet 1:3....[7] Likewise, ye husbands... the wife, (body) as unto the weaker vessel
    Isa 45.....[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it:
    Isa 57.....[16] ...the souls which I have made
    Ezek 18...[4] ... all souls are mine
    Ecc 12.....[7] ...dust return to the earth as it was: spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    A BODY is created from DUST, called a man - THAT body, called a MAN, has NO Teaching of a "MADE" SOUL or "Gods" LIFE, until God blows HIS BREATH into the "CREATED" BODY. There after teaching reveals, man is being called; A LIVING SOUL.

    A Created body is ONE event of man.
    A receiving a living soul, is A separate event of man.
    Death of the Mans BODY created of Dust, is required.
    Death of a Soul or Life of a Soul, is NOT an appointed appointed unto man.
    Souls or Life from God, is never taught to have come from DUST of the earth.

    An Example of Life of the body dying...and the soul departing a dead body:

    Gen 35
    [17] And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
    [18] And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
    [19] And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.

    Another example of a soul departed out of dead body, then the soul returned to the dead body, and life of the body resumed.

    1 Kings 17
    [17] And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
    [19]
    And he (Elijah) said unto her, Give me thy son.
    [21] he
    (Elijah) said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
    [22]
    And the LORD heard ..and.. the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

    Another example of a soul departed out of dead body, then the soul returned to the dead body and the life of the body resumed.

    John 11
    [14] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
    [17] Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.
    [34]
    And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
    [39]
    Jesus said, Take ye away the stone.
    [39] Martha said... Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
    [41] Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid.

    [43] .. he (Jesus) cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
    [44]
    And......... he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes:

    Our own dead flesh, dead blood, has NO POWER to revive itself. We have no power OVER Gods Life, or all SOULS that belong to God. And never is a flesh body alive, without a LIVING SOUL IN IT.

    God holds the Power of His LIFE, and His SOULS....to impart living souls, IN and OUT of vessels and to send those living souls, to a place He has prepared for them, and to judge those body's and living souls at the time and place it pleases Him to do so.

    I only spoke of JUDGEMENT, regarding a man in standing against GOD.
    What "SPIRIT", does a man in Standing AGAINST God Have that you think is "separated"...?
    I spoke of none, so can not answer your question.

    Anyone claiming to be saved and born again, should have some knowledge and not require the entire Bible to be quoted to them....
    You pick out a few

    I upfront ignored particular terms in your opening OP -
    However IF you read what I wrote - I did address;
    what can NEVER die....ie; God, Gods Life, Spirits with Gods Life in it.
    what is Not Conditional.....
    ....Gods eternal existence.
    ....Gods love for all of his creations.
    .....Gods saving grace for all that Love Him.
    ....ALL body's MUST die, and thereafter shall be renewed or destroyed.
    what is Conditional.....
    ....Mankinds love for God, mans choice
    ....Mankinds belief in God, mans choice
    ....Mankinds living soul saved, mans choice
    ....Mankinds spirit quickened, mans choice
    ....Mankinds body, soul, spirit with God eternally, mans choice
    ....Mankinds body and soul separated from God eternally, mans choice.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  3. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Amen, we agree that God is the source of ALL LIFE.

    Before I consider responding further, can I ask which view of Hell you hold most closely to?

    Eternal Conscious Torment
    Annihilationism
    Universalism
    Some other view (please explain as clearly possible)

    I'm honestly not sure that I'm understanding what you are arguing for. I think you are arguing for a type of eternal conscious torment where the body and soul of an unsaved person are eternally annihilated, but their "spirit" remains alive forever in conscious torment. Is this correct, or have I misunderstood you?
     
  4. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    Haven't we gone over this enough? Even your exhaustingly cherry-picked texts don't present a case that the Jews of Jesus' time believed in eternal torment, because you failed to check AT ALL the age of the texts (all except Judith were written after Jesus' time and all including Judith were from completely different locations), and because you didn't look at the context (all include clear mentions of all three possible fates: eternal torment, redemption out of gehenna, and total destruction after torment).

    So you are simply _inventing_ the idea that you have access to "Jewish teaching of the day" that Jesus would be able to contradict. There were multiple teachings, and Jesus taught consistently that only He knew the teachings of heaven (see John 3) while the other teachings were given by people with no authority to teach.
     
  5. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Well mostly I am not arguing. I state what I believe, and at times disagree with view of others.
    Not my job to convince an other to change their beliefs, yet I can disagree with them, based on my own agreement with Scripture.

    Eternal Conscious Torment; For fallen angels, yes. For unfaithful man, eternal, no. A long time, yes.
    Annihilationism; For body and souls of the unfaithful, destruction of their body and soul, void of life.
    .........................The life of their body is blood - and dead.
    .........................The life of their soul returns to God.
    .........................Their body AND soul destroyed.
    .........................They were never given a born again spirit, thus there is no eternal spirit to remain.

    Universalism; ALL of mankind will be saved? No. ALL will believe, but not ALL will be saved.
    .....................Our choice to believe, is during our lifetime ON EARTH.
    .....................All souls in hell, will SEE Jesus at Judgement, and Believe.
    .....................However their belief, is too late for forgiveness,
    .....................Nothing teaches of forgiveness given body's or souls in hell.
    .....................Nothing teaches of saving without forgiveness.
    .....................thus two Scripture are fulfilled;


    Luke 13
    [23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
    [24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

    Isa 45
    [23] I have sworn by myself....That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


    Some other view (please explain as clearly possible) ... Already did.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I cherry picked nothing. That is why I specifically provide links to my sources just so I cannot be accused of cherry picking. But there it is anyway. I am not writing a treatise on all the beliefs of the ancient near east. I was responding to the oft repeated false accusation that the concept of eternal punishment was co-opted from pagan Greek beliefs.
    .....You make the accusation that all of the texts were written after the time of Jesus but you have not provided any evidence.

    I am inventing nothing! Unlike you I provide evidence. That Jesus said only He knew the teachings of heaven is irrelevant. I was talking about what Jews of Jesus' time believed about the eternal fate of man and how Jesus' teaching often supported the belief in eternal punishment.
    .....I wonder how did formerly pagan Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica and other NT places understand Jesus' teaching on "eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die,""a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth etc?" Do you suppose they heard those words and thought "Oh yeah, that actually means eternal death."
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  7. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I followed the links, and posted quotes from them, sometimes from the SAME PARAGRAPH, that contradict the false story you're trying to construct. For example, you quote from the Talmud that there will be continued existence and torment to those being punished; but the same paragraph shows that gehenna itself will end, and those in it will either be reconciled or annihilated, EXCEPT for Christians and traitors who will continue in eternal torment.

    Then you didn't show it, not even slightly, because your dates are so wildly off. But this isn't what your post claimed before; you claimed to be showing that because Jesus didn't contradict the Jewish teaching about eternal torment, therefore He agreed with it. That's what you claimed, and it's what I responded to.

    [/QUOTE]You make the accusation that all of the texts were written after the time of Jesus but you have not provided any evidence.[/QUOTE]

    Are you kidding? I posted the dates of composition of those documents. It's not hard to check my claims! I
    gave the dates your documentation was gathered from. Nothing was from before AD 300, except for one you didn't link to, a quote from Judith, whose translation is questionable.

    Except this mythical "Jewish doctrine" that Jesus would allegedly have to contradict.

    I respect you providing evidence, but sheesh. I did too. There's no call for you to bear false witness about me.

    It's incredibly relevant to the demand you just made, that I'd have to prove that "Jesus taught about the eternal fate of the unrighteous specifically contradicted or criticized the Jewish teachings of His day?" He _did_ contradict it. He claimed the right to contradict it.

    No, you were not presenting writings from Jesus' time, but myths from much later. And I wouldn't mind continuing our previous discussions of Jesus' teachings about eternal punishment.




    (1) Eternal punishment: surely they understood it as Jesus presented it in the one verse He mentioned it, as the judicial deprivation of "eternal life," the final capital punishment. If they were tempted to think like Plato did that sins deserve torment, perhaps Paul could correct them that "the wages of sin is death", or that "the righteous decree of God is that those who do such things deserve to die."

    (2) "hell... where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched": Jesus spoke in Old Testament terms of the valley, Gia Ben Hinnom/ge'enna, into which those slain by the Lord were thrown; a valley of corpses and ashes. After that final judgment it was predicted that the righteous would see the corpses of the wicked with unquenchable flames and worm that would not die -- and in other places that they'd be eaten by jackals that would not be frightened away. No torment there, just corpses. In fact, the gospel of Luke, which was apparently directed at the Gentiles in many ways, has Jesus explain Gehenna exactly ONCE, and his explanation is that it's the place where God, having killed, throws people in. And that's all. It's a valley of corpses.

    (3) "a furnace of fire: there shall be [weeping] and gnashing of teeth": But do you think I believe people thrown into a furnace will be _silent_ as they die? Psalm 112:10 says "The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish!" The context is clear, though, that the wicked "at the end of the age" will be burnt like tares are "burnt up", and with them go "every cause of stumbling." After the end of the age, there are no more causes of stumbling -- and by symmetry, no more wicked. Same fate: being burnt like tares are burnt up.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Wrong as usual! Nothing you quoted or could quote contradicted anything I quoted. I have acknowledged before that there were disparate among the Jews e.g. the Pharisees believed in the resurrection and angels the Sadducees did not. That is not a contradiction. Neither is what I posted. Note here the newer Encyclopedia Judaica acknowledges that "In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death." And does not assign any date to that belief.
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom

    That is your claim but no, zero, none evidence to support that claim. See Encyclopedia Judaica, above.
    Not the most recent post which I quoted.
    Saying Jesus contradicted the Jews does not make it so. Does Jesus teaching contradict this, "
    Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death."

    As you have acknowledged Judith predates Jesus. The Jewish Encyclopedia certainly accepted Judith as accurate. Your objections therefore are irrelevant.
    Assumes that all the Christians throughout the the NT lands had the complete NT in their possession and that they could and did compare the writings of the disciples with the writings of Paul. Also assumes that all former pagan Christians would understand that "eternal punishment" "really" meant "the judicial deprivation of 'eternal life,'" The early church e.g. Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Origen certainly did not understand it that way.
    [quote](2) "hell... where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched": Jesus spoke in Old Testament terms of the valley, Gia Ben Hinnom/ge'enna, into which those slain by the Lord were thrown; a valley of corpses and ashes. After that final judgment it was predicted that the righteous would see the corpses of the wicked with unquenchable flames and worm that would not die -- and in other places that they'd be eaten by jackals that would not be frightened away. No torment there, just corpses. In fact, the gospel of Luke, which was apparently directed at the Gentiles in many ways, has Jesus explain Gehenna exactly ONCE, and his explanation is that it's the place where God, having killed, throws people in. And that's all. It's a valley of corpses.[/quote]
    Nonsense! You make a lot of mixed up claims but no scripture. As noted above in the Encyclopedia Judaica Jesus was referring to Hehenna as hell. There is no, zero, none evidence that the valley of Hinnom was a valley of corpses.
    Ah yes, a piece of a verse here, a piece of a verse there and another piece from somewhere else and you have a patchwork doctrine. I'm sure that the former pagan Christians in Rome, Corinth etc. who did not have the OT understood all about Psalm 112 when they heard the NT read. Ps 112 is not about man's eternal fate but what happens in this life.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  9. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I just gave a clear, specific example, where your quotation of a belief about definite eternal torment was cherry-picked from a context showing belief in both of the other alternatives. As usual, you say "wrong as usual" and completely ignore all the evidence I post.

    But I also pointed out that your argument about Jesus having to _contradict_ the Jewish belief only works if you can prove there's a widespread Jewish belief that Jesus was contradicting. And you haven't done that; in fact, you completely conceded the point when you changed your assertion from its original that there was "a Jewish belief" that Jesus would have to contradict, to asserting that there are "Jewish beliefs" that he'd have to contradict. The latter is COMPLETE defeat for your argument, since your implicit claim is that Jesus agreed with anything He didn't contradict, which cannot be true if there's more than one belief.

    I don't claim the Saducees as a counterexample, because we both know Jesus DID disagree with them. I claimed examples from the exact texts you were quoting, and forced you to backtrack your argument to a less defensible one.

    The quotation went wonky, so I'm not sure what you're quoting or why.

    You red-highlighted that, and I think you're making a mistake to quote a modern Jewish encyclopedia as an authority on Christianity. But even so, this is only attempting to describe modern Judaism, not ancient; and it's only describing a "place of torment", not a place of eternal torment; since the majority of modern Judaism agrees with the Talmud that Gehenna will not last forever.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No you did not give me a clear specific example. You made a vague claim "I followed the links, and posted quotes from them, sometimes from the SAME PARAGRAPH, that contradict the false story you're trying to construct." Show me "in-context" where this is true. Go to the search feature at the top of the page and search for all your posts in this thread and link me to the post where you did what you are claiming. Or quit making accusations which IMO you can't back up.
    You have not completely defeated anything. I conceded nothing! Your final sentence is wrong since much of what Jesus taught supported a belief in hell as understood by many Christians.
    Wrong! Nothing I quoted contradicts or is contradicted by anything in the JE article I quoted from. There were different beliefs. For example, the school of Hillel had one belief, the contemporary school of Shammai had a different belief. One does not disprove the other.
    Wrong. Go to the link and see the title of the site "History:Ancient Jewish History." The site quotes from the Encyclopedia Judaica.
    Link: Gehinnom
    You are wrong about the Talmud. Please show me how anything is this quote contradicts or is contradicted by anything else.

    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Talmud Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  11. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks. I had misunderstood your view. We are mostly in agreement. Conditional Immortality/Annihilationism is really focused on the final destiny of unsaved people. People who hold to CI have a variety of views on the final fate of fallen angels.

    Also, you seem to hold to a "trichotomy" view of man, whereas I lean towards a "dichotomy" view. But to me this is a very minor difference most of the time.

    God Bless You,
    Mark (with Hope and Joy!)
     
  12. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    You can see it's condemning all Christians to eternal torment. If you can't see a contradiction between that and Christianity it doesn't seem that you can see _anything_.

    Furthermore, even the part you quoted _also_ implies that all except those specific crimes listed (such as Christianity) will be destroyed when Gehenna is destroyed -- itself a contradiction against Christianity.

    And finally, if you follow your own link you'll see that universalism and annihilationism all described completely explicitly. Here's universalism: //The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. xiii. 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and he shall call on My name, and I will answer him."// And here's annihilationism: //Transgressors of Jewish birth and also of non-Jewish birth, who sin with their body descend to Gehenna, and are judged there for twelve months; after that time their bodies are destroyed and burnt, and the winds scatter their ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as we read [Mal. iii. 23]: "And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be as ashes under the soles of your feet"//

    I've posted all of this several times now, and your answer is consistently denial. Now you're demanding I prove that I posted this before (WHY???). I've done better -- I've _reposted_ the evidence, from your own link.

    I've also clearly shown you the dates on the Talmudim being LONG after Christ (AD 400 was when the text we have seems to have been compiled, although the details about Gehenna are only present in the copy written in Babylon AD 600); this is a point that's trivial to check, but instead you've pretended you can win points by ignoring and denying.

    You changed your argument from "Jesus didn't contradict the Jewish view of eternal torment" to "Jesus didn't contradict the Jewish VIEWS." Note that you had to change to the plural, which of course made your argument complete nonsense; but you simply ignored the fact that you're speaking nonsense and started speaking louder. (To be specific, your argument is now complete nonsense because the Jewish views cannot all be true, and Jesus could not AGREE with all of them at once.)

    I responded to all three quotes you gave, addressing them in context. All you're doing here is denial.
     
  13. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't know why you think I'm assuming that, or even why you think it's a problem.

    Seriously? Origen? The universalist Origen?

    Ignatius clearly did understand it that way; he taught that the bread broken in the Church is "the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying but which causes that we should live forever in Jesus Christ."

    Irenaeus likewise is clear: "And again, He thus speaks respecting the salvation of man: He asked life of You, and You gave him length of days for ever and ever; indicating that it is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved. For life does not arise from us, nor from our own nature; but it is bestowed according to the grace of God. And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great? indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever."

    Polycarp is harder to trace; assuming his Martyrdom document accurately reports his views (which I consider dubious) he believed in eternal torment -- but if so, he barely alluded to it. And there's nothing actually written by him which confirms this.

    Now that I remember, though, we did this once before -- I wrote a paragraph FULL of Scriptural quotations, and you dismissed it as not having any. (Although this time you don't have the excuse of me not mentioning references -- I pointed out Luke.)

    In that paragraph I'm expecting you to know Mark 9:48, Isa 66:16-24, Jer 31:40, Deut 28, and Luke 12:5.

    Nice story bro. You quoted three verses, incorrectly and missing context. I filled in the contextual details and supported them with direct teaching from the rest of the Bible.

    In fact the reading of the OT was crucial to the early NT church, so yes, they most certainly DID have the OT.

    Well, first, I pointed that out to show you what gnashing means Biblically. It doesn't mean to live forever; there it's part of dying. I didn't point to it as clear teaching about the final end of the wicked.

    Second, though, do you think the Psalms are just wishful thinking? Don't you think the authors noticed that the wicked sometimes prosper? Do you think they didn't notice that the righteous die? Your interpretation makes the Psalms sometimes, almost NORMALLY, wrong.

    And worse, your interpretation makes the Psalms ultimately, finally, in the eternal state, wrong. You think the wicked won't actually gnash their teeth and melt away; they'll ultimately gnash their teeth and remain. Or see Psalm 37. "9 For the evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land. 10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there. 11 But the meek shall inherit the land and delight themselves in abundant peace." You think the wicked will HAVE a place forever -- it just won't be a nice one. (Also, notice "the meek will inherit the earth" -- Jesus' promise.)
     
  14. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are misquoting this!
    What I can see are bits and pieces out-of-context.
    You can't even quote me correctly. I did not say "Jesus didn't contradict the Jewish VIEWS."
    Here it is again maybe you can quote it correctly this time. You might try placing quote blocks around the text like this [QU0TE] text[/QU0TE]

    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said[Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2017
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Since none of the NT writers insisted that all Christians observe all the OT feasts, festivals etc. why are people today doing it?
    Have you ever actually read Origen, some of his writings are not universalist.

    Where did Ignatius supposedly say this? I can't find this quote in his writings/
    Another unidentified "quote."
    Unsupported opinions have virtually zero credibility.
    Citing scripture references e.g. Mark 9:48, Isa 66:16-24, Jer 31:40, Deut 28, and Luke 12:5. is not scripture quotation. If you think a verse is relevant quote it and indicate how. I'm not a mind reader.
    Says you.
    Prove it from scripture.
    You quoted one verse with zero context. Does your Bible have these four verses? Anybody can prove almost anything by selectively quoting scripture.

    Job 16:9
    (9) God assails me and tears me in his anger and gnashes his teeth at me; my opponent fastens on me his piercing eyes.
    Psa 35:16
    (16) Like the ungodly they maliciously mocked; they gnashed their teeth at me.
    Psa 37:12
    (12) The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them;
    Lam 2:16
    (16) All your enemies open their mouths wide against you; they scoff and gnash their teeth and say, "We have swallowed her up. This is the day we have waited for; we have lived to see it."
    When does the NT says the wailing and gnashing of teeth in Mat_8:12 Mat_13:42 Mat_13:50 Mat_22:13 Mat_24:51 Mat_25:30 Luk_13:28 will end?
    Wrong! I was just pointing out that that particular Psalm had nothing to do with man's eternal fate. And it certainly does not provide a universal context for the word "gnashing."

    Psalm 37 is often cited as proof for annihilationism but it also is not about man's eternal fate. The people of Israel cannot see into eternity they will look for their enemies here in this world but their enemies will be gone vs. 9 See e.g. Psalms 37:2, Psalms 37:14, Psalms 37:15, Psalms 37:20.
     
  17. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I provided a direct backlink to your original Talmudim post in my reply; anyone interested can check that I've done more than is reasonably required to prove my good intentions. Meanwhile, anyone can see you're providing only obfuscation and denial -- it is simply not enough for you to CLAIM misquotation with no attempt to clarify. It becomes more and more apparent that you simply have no answer EXCEPT to obfuscate the truth.

    I correctly explained to you that your Talmudic quotation promises eternal torment in the form of "withering" only to specific sins (including being a Christian), and directs those unrepentant who did not commit those specific sins to destruction when gehenna is destroyed; meanwhile, it promises salvation from out of gehenna to everyone who's done specific good things (and not those eternal-torment sins). NONE of this is compatible with the Bible.

    That was my honest summary of this quote, WITH BACKLINK:

    Notice your demand that I prove to you that Jesus contradicted "Jewish teachings"? That's what I'm talking about.

    Your argument is _cooked_. I have shown you how your original Talmudic source is completely incompatible with Jesus' view, your own view, or any Christian view. I've shown you Jesus directly stating that His teaching authority overrides and contradicts the so-called teachers of Israel. I've done more than that, but that's enough for this thread to end.

    Here's the oldest form of your argument, again with a backlink so you can't simply deny you said it AGAIN:

    Notice how this older argument completely inaccurately claims the Jews were CORRECT in their belief about hell. And you actually used this nonsense as a positive argument FOR your position! This is the argument I am refuting here. It is false in every detail: premises and logic are dead wrong.
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Der Alter had said:

    "Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct."

    Where is there any proof that any Pharisees had a belief in endless conscious torments at exactly the same time as Jesus' ministry (circa 30 A.D.)?

    How would we know that many or all of them were not annihilationists or universalists or a mixture of the three positions?

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  19. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    You're being a hypocrite -- you "cite" Origen as somehow agreeing with eternal torment merely by naming him, without providing any quote at all. Then you whine at me for providing full quotes (from public-domain Schaff, BTW, so easily available from multiple sources on the web).

    That's a pretty complex claim for someone whose entire demonstrated knowledge of the church fathers is a few of their names, plus the claim that not all of Origen's writings are universalist. I've actually read these documents, which is why I was able to pull up the quotes I did with no fuss. I see no evidence at all you've done anything -- just big talk.

    Seriously? I'm replying to this COMPLETELY unreferenced mess of cobbled-together misquotes:

    ...and you're demanding I, unlike you, have to provide both quotes and citations for everything? I responded to your mishmash with a Scriptural study, and when you failed to even recognize the quotes I provided, I THEN provided citations as well.

    You're literally asking me to "prove" to you that the NT church didn't have the NT, but read the OT instead? How about 1 Cor 15, "according to the Scripture"? The Corinthians had a mix of Jew and Greek, but still were being regularly taught to recognize the prophecies of Christ in the Scripture -- which, at the time the first letter to the Corinthians was written, did not include any of the Gospels, and could only have a couple of Paul's letters at the most.

    But why are you even questioning this? It's well-known that the apostles and missionaries preached Jesus from the OT.

    Your whole tactic on this is incredibly dubious -- you're trying to prove that the gentile early church wouldn't understand OT allusions, but the whole NT is absolutely STUFFED with OT allusions. We have no record of a church at any time without OT allusions.

    You seem angry, but I've done nothing wrong. I quoted that to show that gnashing can happen during a terminal judgment. You've provided no explanation why I was wrong to cite that for that purpose -- the verses you provided don't do anything against what I posted.

    What about Acts 7:54? Why don't you ask when THAT gnashing of teeth will end? Oh, because that doesn't fit your carefully constructed narrative. That's right. All you're pointing out is passages that DON'T say when it ends. You're ignoring the passages that DO say that for the wicked, it will end.

    The idea that this Psalm has nothing to do with man's eternal state is PURELY your own invention. The Psalm itself contains nothing to confirm that claim.

    I didn't attempt to claim "a universal context". I'm just showing you that gnashing is an entirely normal reaction to a fate that destroys. Therefore, you cannot cite a passage that contains gnashing as though that MEANT a fate that doesn't destroy.

    No. Read the WHOLE THING, not your little selections. Look at the promises. The future of the wicked will be cut off. They will be no more. They will be destroyed. They will go up in smoke. The meek will inherit the earth. These are the promises that slowly led the Jews to realize that Isaiah's promises of a defeat of death, and Daniel's promises of a resurrection, would apply to ALL the righteous, not just the ones living at the time. That's why Jesus quotes this Psalm in the Beatitudes. And those promises only make sense IN CONTEXT: both the fates of the wicked and the righteous are final here.

    Psalm 37 is about man's eternal fate. So's Ps 73. And 2 Peter 2:6. Also Matt 10:28, or Luke 12:5. Matt 13. Malachi 4. Hundreds of passages, full of detail, giving explicit descriptions of the wicked having no future (Ps 37), reduced to ashes (Mal 4) and smoke (Ps 37) or dreams when one awakens (Ps 73), not entering the age to come (Luke 20), being removed from creation by being consumed in the fire of God Himself (Heb 10,12).

    Every book of the Bible, from Genesis 3's refusal to let sinful man live forever to Revelation's ban keeping the wicked away from the Tree of Life all point to the end of sinners in God's plan. There will be no place for them.

    Compare this to your claim. What were you arguing again? Something about Jews not being contradicted?
     
  20. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    Very good reminder, Clement. I skipped over those details this time, but he still hasn't been able to provide a date for the beliefs he's claiming Jesus agreed with. The document he keeps pasting here is VERY late, and his attempts to deny my date for the Talmud haven't included any attempts to actually say what the date of those beliefs IS.
     
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