Conception of Hell

[Timothew]

I've already given you a sample:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7477943-2/#post55240638

Follow the references in your Bible from there and you should have all you need. What the Bible says is blunt and without question. What men think on this issue is not material at all.

Thanks, I've looked at Mark 9:42-50.

You are correct, what men think on this issue is not material at all. I'm just going to believe the bible.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Where are these blunt statements?

The wages of sin is death?
Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life?
Whoever has the Son has life and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life?

Do you believe what the bible says, or do you believe what people say the bible says? Do you believe that God's word is an authority on this issue? I do, and eternal torment is not in God's word. Otherwise, show me.

I and several other people here has clearly shown you several scriptures on eternal torment, but I can give more scriptures if you need more. Not that I believe it will help since you already deny the obvious.

Matthew 8:12
but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.

Matthew 13:50
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And a third angel followed them, saying in a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or in his hand,
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day, even if anyone receives the mark of its name.

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

It's many more verses about an eternal torment, but most of them has already been quoted in the thread so there is no need for me to repeat them all over again.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Thanks, I've looked at Mark 9:42-50.

You are correct, what men think on this issue is not material at all. I'm just going to believe the bible.

You keep quoting scriptures that talks about death, but you ignore all the scriptures that talks about what happens when unbelievers die. Those scriptures is what I and many other people have tried to show you. You can't stop halfway. You have to read all of the bible in context.

 

[cubinity]

Arguing over the nature of supernatural phenomena like hell sounds something like this:

--I have Rick Steve's guide book for Eastern Europe. I've read it cover to cover, and can list off a whole mess of excerpts to prove whatever I want to prove. I have studied that text thoroughly and I am absolutely convinced from his numerous blunt statements about Eastern Europe that it is exactly as he describes it.

Because of all this studying of this book, I now consider myself an expert on Eastern Europe. I know it inside and out, and can win arguments about it with anyone else who has also had the privilege of studying this same text.

What? No. I've never been there. That's ludicrous! Why would I need to actually experience something before I can claim to be an expert on it? After all, I don't need to be bit by a snake to know it hurts, do I? I can just read books about snakes and consider my views on them as relevant and informed.--

I'm not saying the Bible isn't true, anymore than I would argue that Rick Steve's book on Eastern Europe isn't valuable. What I am saying is that if there is a hell, it may or may not look like one of several different ways the Bible describes the afterlife. We can't know HOW the Bible is true until we have experienced its truth in our own lives.

Do I have any takers on experiencing the subject of this debate? Anyone? No? Okay, then I guess we'll all just have to admit that what we do know about hell we've read in a book, and our arguments aren't compelling for one very important reason: none of us has any first-hand experience with the subject matter.

Personally, I don't know what it is like. Whatever it is, I don't care that much since whether I go there or not is based on something I do in this life. Therefore, I'm content focusing my efforts on getting the things in this life more right than they have been. I can leave hell up to the experts who've actually been.

 

[Timothew]

You keep quoting scriptures that talks about death, but you ignore all the scriptures that talks about what happens when unbelievers die. Those scriptures is what I and many other people have tried to show you. You can't stop halfway. You have to read all of the bible in context.

Help me then.
God knows that I want to see sinners burn alive for all eternity just as much as the next guy. I just don't think that the bible says that. I've been shown a lot of verses, but none that say that the unrighteous will live forever in a fiery torment. Please don't say that I'm ignoring anything, please be kind, please show me eternal living torment in the bible.

The Mark passage doesn't work, because it doesn't say what happens in hell. Are people burnt up and destroyed in hell or are they kept alive in eternal torment for eternity? Mark doesn't say.

Don't think that I'm being unkind when I disagree with you.
If I'm wrong, please show me.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Arguing over the nature of supernatural phenomena like hell sounds something like this:

--I have Rick Steve's guide book for Eastern Europe. I've read it cover to cover, and can list off a whole mess of excerpts to prove whatever I want to prove. I have studied that text thoroughly and I am absolutely convinced from his numerous blunt statements about Eastern Europe that it is exactly as he describes it.

Because of all this studying of this book, I now consider myself an expert on Eastern Europe. I know it inside and out, and can win arguments about it with anyone else who has also had the privilege of studying this same text.

What? No. I've never been there. That's ludicrous! Why would I need to actually experience something before I can claim to be an expert on it? After all, I don't need to be bit by a snake to know it hurts, do I? I can just read books about snakes and consider my views on them as relevant and informed.--

I'm not saying the Bible isn't true, anymore than I would argue that Rick Steve's book on Eastern Europe isn't valuable. What I am saying is that if there is a hell, it may or may not look like one of several different ways the Bible describes the afterlife. We can't know HOW the Bible is true until we have experienced its truth in our own lives.

Do I have any takers on experiencing the subject of this debate? Anyone? No? Okay, then I guess we'll all just have to admit that what we do know about hell we've read in a book, and our arguments aren't compelling for one very important reason: none of us has any first-hand experience with the subject matter.

Personally, I don't know what it is like. Whatever it is, I don't care that much since whether I go there or not is based on something I do in this life. Therefore, I'm content focusing my efforts on getting the things in this life more right than they have been. I can leave hell up to the experts who've actually been.

I and several other people here doesn't quote from man made books. We are quoting from the bible which is the infallible word of and an all knowing God. If He says this is how it is, then it is how it is.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Help me then.
God knows that I want to see sinners burn alive for all eternity just as much as the next guy. I just don't think that the bible says that. I've been shown a lot of verses, but none that say that the unrighteous will live forever in a fiery torment. Please don't say that I'm ignoring anything, please be kind, please show me eternal living torment in the bible.

The Mark passage doesn't work, because it doesn't say what happens in hell. Are people burnt up and destroyed in hell or are they kept alive in eternal torment for eternity? Mark doesn't say.

Don't think that I'm being unkind when I disagree with you.
If I'm wrong, please show me.

I accept that you may be sincere, but if what I have posted and several other people have posted doesn't answer your question I don't know what does. Then I have to step back and hope people more qualified than me can explain it better than I can.

 

[nChrist]

The portion of Scripture I quoted from Mark was from Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus Christ speaks numerous times about hell. It's a simple matter - you accept or reject what God's Word says about hell. I can tell you for certain that God could care less what Milton or any other man thinks about hell.

This is just one reason why it's a matter of love for a Christian to share the Gospel of the Grace of God with others. In fact, most Christians feel an urgency because this life is short and uncertain. If you die in your sins without accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, it's too late.

Good News!
The Holy Bible is the WORD OF GOD!
God The Father, God The Son, God The Holy Spirit - The Creator Of All Things!
"GOD'S GRACE" and "OUR WORKS"
American Thanksgiving Proclamations ( 1623 to 1863 )
American Thanksgiving Proclamations ( 1961 to 2001 )
JESUS CHRIST - VERY GOD - LORD - SAVIOUR - MESSIAH - KING
Are You Lost?​

 

[desmalia]

Is annihilationism Biblical?

 

[rstrats]

JesusFreak78,

re: "Matthew 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of the teeth."

Doesn’t say for how long.
　

re: "Matthew 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth."

Doesn’t say for how long.
　

re: "Revelation 14:9-11 - 9 And a third angel followed them, saying in a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or in his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb."

Doesn’t say for how long.
　

re: "11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever."

Only says that smoke goes up for ever.


re: "And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day..."

Doesn't say for how long.


re: "Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, Go away from Me, cursed ones, into the everlasting fire having been prepared for the Devil and his angels."

Doesn’t say what the condition of the person will be or for how long.
　

re: "Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

Nothing here precludes a punishment of eternal death.

 

[Capuano231]

Doesn't the Bible say the body and SOUL will be DESTROYED in the Lake of Fire?


I don't recall anything in the Bible about eternal torment.

 

[Timothew]

I accept that you may be sincere, but if what I have posted and several other people have posted doesn't answer your question I don't know what does. Then I have to step back and hope people more qualified than me can explain it better than I can.

Is there any chance I can persuade you? I didn't just decide one day that I wasn't going to believe in eternal torment any longer. This came about over a few years of bible study.

 

[cubinity]

Take Matthew 25, which contains a parable JesusFreak78 quoted from in post #42 as obvious proof of the existence of eternal torment for unbelievers.

Reread that parable. What is the basis for the king's decision? Was belief a factor at all? Was Jesus' sacrifice, grace, or redemption a factor at all?

Is it the same distinction you expect Jesus to make for you?

If you admit to being a sinner deserving of eternal torment, and a believer that if God describes it in the Bible, that's the way it is; then please explain, according to Matthew 25 (where God so obviously describes hell), how we might have any chance of escaping this eternal torment.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Is there any chance I can persuade you? I didn't just decide one day that I wasn't going to believe in eternal torment any longer. This came about over a few years of bible study.

I think the bible is crystal clear on this topic and have no doubt about its teaching. My point of stepping back is I'm not very good at explaining things, so instead of I'm saying the same things over and over again it's better for someone that can explain this better than I do get the chance to do so.

 

[rstrats]

cubinity,

re: "Take Matthew 25, which contains a parable JesusFreak78 quoted from in post #42 as obvious proof of the existence of eternal torment for unbelievers."
　
I don’t see where Matthew 25 says anything about eternal torment for unbelievers. What do you have in mind?

 

[rstrats]

JesusFreak78,

re: "I think the bible is crystal clear on this topic and have no doubt about its teaching."

I just don’t understand why you want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no specific scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why you try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes you want to do that when there is no need to. Why do you want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

 

[rstrats]

Capuano231,

re: "I don't recall anything in the Bible about eternal torment."

That’s because there isn’t anything, with the possible exception of Satan - and maybe the beast and the false prophet, depending on the Bible version that you are using.

 

[cubinity]

cubinity,

re: "Take Matthew 25, which contains a parable JesusFreak78 quoted from in post #42 as obvious proof of the existence of eternal torment for unbelievers."
　
I don’t see where Matthew 25 says anything about eternal torment for unbelievers. What do you have in mind?

Matthew 25 is not obviously a statement about eternal torment for unbelievers. It is constantly used by those who believe in hell as an eternal torment to prove that such a view is Biblical. It may or may not be Biblical, but it isn't as obvious as it has been made out to be by some on this thread.

If you are going to take part of a parable as literal, then you must take it as literal in context. The parable describes an eternal torment for those selected by a king because of their works, not because of his grace exhibited through his son's sacrifice. Therefore, if the eternal torment of the parable is anything, it is not the consequence of not believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

That's all I had in mind.

 

[JesusFreak78]

JesusFreak78,

re: "I think the bible is crystal clear on this topic and have no doubt about its teaching."

I just don’t understand why you want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no specific scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why you try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes you want to do that when there is no need to. Why do you want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.

I believe in an everlasting torment for unsaved because that's what the bible teaches. I can't just take my opinion and apply it as I want to. The bible has the final authority and I must yield my opinion to make it fit God's opinion.

You say God is a heartless monster to send people to hell and you talk about a loving God will just wipe out people when they die. If justice was done and we all got as we deserved we would all go to hell without any exceptions, but in His love and mercy God has chosen to save some for His glory.

 

[step7hen]

Hell is very difficult thing for me to believe in. If i had to say what happens to those whom god does not consider worthy of heaven. I would say they would cease to exist which in turn would completely detach them from god and they would enter the "Eternal Fire" or Eternal Destruction as fire destroys. Doesn’t it seem a wrong to condemn those who have chosen the wrong path to an eternal suffering? I believe our fate is either with god or with the organisms he created. However i may be wrong so i always keep an open mind!