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Yes sir you have a self made religion.Your avoidance of the actual text is ... "impressive".
Pardon me while I call attention to the text... again.
Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)
Yeah but you throw out the rest of the sentence which makes it very plain your idea is false.Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covevant claims that the LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart and mind" -- as we all know by now.
You are welcome.
Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?
Context. ... context... context.
The Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Hebrews 10 telling us that that animal sacrifices ended at the cross. A point made dozens of times on this section of the board so far... as we all know by now.
So then back to the question -
Simple exegesis - what "LAW" did Jeremiah and his readers know about?
Context. ... context... context.
Amen and amen from an old timer here.I have no idea what God revealed to Jeremiah except what he revealed to us. He revealed that it would be a NEW covenant. That means it is not the warmed up old covenant with its 613 laws. It is a new covenant written not on parchment, but on the hearts of us who love and serve Him. Yes, it is a new place where the covenant has been placed, but there is nothing you can prove that will convince those of us we are missing the content of the new. You cannot defend that it is the same warmed over covenant that the Israelites failed to keep. Why would a loving Father burden His children with 613 laws, take away the sacrificial rules, and keep the laws of stoning for breaking Sabbath, wearing the Yamaka, tassels, and so on. You have yet to answer how those laws have vanished from the 613 that you claim are part of the new covenant. You have to explain why there is no explanation for how to observe all the laws you say are binding on Christians. Gentiles were not privy to the Torah. How were they instructed in Torah requirements. They split from their Jewish brothers, started worshiping on another day and there is no historical knowledge of them keeping the Torah minus the sacrifices. Lets get real, your posture is not solid. It does not fit with Paul's writings nor does it fit with what John taught us.
Shouldn't we be pricked by the Holy Spirit that is within us and the writings of scripture to observe Sabbath? You cannot use Paul's writings to prove Sabbath observance. He has declared that the 10 Commandments, which contained the ritual Sabbath law, to have been only the temporary guide of Israel. Praise the Lord He gave us the holy Spirit in place of the 10. Jesus said not one jot.... would pass from the law until all was fulfilled yet Adventism has been backed into a corner and cannot get out because they contend that not all has been fulfilled. Not all has been fulfilled yet you remove hundreds of bits and pieces, flatly disobeying Jesus.
Yes, you have a lot of explaining to do my friend. You are protected by the rules on this forum otherwise we could expose what your other beliefs are. You can call us, by quoting scriptures supposedly aimed at us, all the names you want. We have a relationship that is impenetrable. The Holy Spirit guides us into the real truth unlike having a prophet who has led otherwise great people into darkness.
Exactly! my fiend. We want everyone to read what the Bible says. As such they can't possibly believe a thing you say.Yesterday at 8:40 PM #70 scripture based
By contrast:
Ad hominem attack based
Let the unbiased objective readers decide which they would choose as a guide.
So why aren't all the entities on your list promoting and keeping the Sabbath (well your version anyway)? I believe Moody said Saturday is his day off and says nothing about worshipping on it.As an answer to the simple question posted there - your post is using avoidance.
The answer to your "list" is so obvious that even the bulk of pro-Sunday sources "get it".
The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
A clear distinction between TEN Commandments and the ceremonial laws.
Don't be surprised if he doesn't imply the Jews had no idea.HuH!
If it so simple then why do you avoid answering?
Apparently you don't get it. Out of one side of you mouth yo tell us that only the sacrificial system has been abated by quoting Heb 10. Then from somewhere else in your mouth you claim feast days, new moons have been done away. Now you refer to ceremonial laws as being distinct from the 10. Sorry friend, you just keep diggin the hole deeper and deeper. Ask any Jew if there is a distinction. They are all from God and are all written in the book of the law. The only thing that is distinct is the distinction of the laws dealing with morality and those dealing with rituals. All were important. Death could occur from breaking rituals just as could happen with breaking moral requirements.
So why aren't all the entities on your list promoting and keeping the Sabbath (well your version anyway)? I believe Moody said Saturday is his day off and says nothing about worshipping on it.
bugkiller
Nice try my friend, you know exactly where I am coming from. There is no justification for your cover up of Col 2. Your theory shoots yourself in the foot as I have indicated. You cannot have it both ways by picking the ones to shuck and holding on to the others.
Exactly! my fiend.
We want everyone to read what the Bible says. As such they can't possibly believe a thing you say.
bugkiller
You're simply saying things that aren't true. So why aren't or weren't they keeping the 7th day Sabbath?Objectivity in this case is demonstrated by showing that even the pro-sunday scholars on your side of the fence - agree with me that the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God - and that ALL TEN are binding on mankind - all TEN define what sin is -- not just some of them.
Your opposition to God's Ten Commandments is not merely a difference between you and the seventh day Bible Sabbath keeping Christians - it is also between you and a great many of your own pro-sunday scholars!
in Christ,
Bob
I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.Your avoidance of the actual text is ... "impressive".
Pardon me while I call attention to the text... again.
Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)
Now and then you get it right. Normally the anti-Ten Commandments group would like to take all that scripture posted above and claim it is nothing more than "What I say" rather than the actual Bible being quoted.
That didn't last long.
You're simply saying things that aren't true. .
jerry kelso said: ↑
3. Actually in Colossians says sabbath days plural or a holy day let no man judge you in meat, or in drink. This is in the same context as the blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.
4. The meat, drinks holy day, the new moon and the sabbath days were ceremonial ordinances.
Col 2 is not condemning anything in the Bible - it is condemning the "commandments of men" as stated in the actual Col 2 text.
So Bob, you deny Paul in 2Cor 3:7-11 in favor of those Babylonian 10 commandment thumpers you love o quote? To me that would be a travesty.Objectivity in this case is demonstrated by showing that even the pro-sunday scholars on your side of the fence - agree with me that the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God - and that ALL TEN are binding on mankind - all TEN define what sin is -- not just some of them.
Your opposition to God's Ten Commandments is not merely a difference between you and the seventh day Bible Sabbath keeping Christians - it is also between you and a great many of your own pro-sunday scholars!
in Christ,
Bob
If Paul is condemning anything it would be those who would try to put us back under the law.This entire thread proves that in Col 2 Paul is not condemning a single text of scripture - but rather the "commandments of men".
Jan 14, 2016 #91
If Paul is condemning anything it would be those who would try to put us back under the law.
I will not argue with you on the point of whether Paul was referring to the law or to our sins. The certificate of debt consisting against of decrees us are, as you say, sins that we have committed. These verses are not good ones for those of us who believe the law is no longer the Christian's guide to prove anything. Personally I don't use them because scripture has left enough ammunition to prove we are not under the law.Your avoidance of the actual text is ... "impressive".
Pardon me while I call attention to the text... again.
Col 2:4-23 points to the fact that the certificate of debt is paid and that we should not "make stuff up" that is not in the Bible as did the Jews in Mark 2 and Mark 7 and in Titus 1.
4 I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. 5 For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
Why you chose to use verses 16-18 is beyond my thinking, Verse 16, 17 tells me not to let anyone judge me of what I eat, drink, keeping of various festivals and the Sabbath. I can't remember you judging me of not observing the Sabbath, but your posts sure do come close and of course the SDA church and your prophet is full of judgment for especially those of us who have left the church and also the remainder of Christianity. Paul indicates that it is wrong to judge us for not observing those shadows. The reality is Jesus and if some entity is going to judge then it should be Jesus they are judging us to. Actually, it is not the SDAs job to judge other Christians. Why do you use these 3 verses to to try to convince us that we should observe the Sabbath is beyond me.16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
WOW!, you are brave for posting those verses. Your church Is vehement about pork and other meats you refuse to even touch. Please describe what other Christians Paul would have been referring to. He was referring to Judaizers such as SDAs. It is your church that came up with the idea that pork is not a food for Christians. It is your church that says the "ceremonial" laws are no longer binding except for your modified tithing rules and the meat laws.20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)
Well thanks, I didn't think you recognized in a positive way anything I have written.Now and then you get it right.
Normally the anti-Ten Commandments group would like to take all that scripture posted above and claim it is nothing more than "What I say" rather than the actual Bible being quoted.
I will not argue with you on the point of whether Paul was referring to the law or to our sins.
The certificate of debt consisting against of decrees us are, as you say, sins that we have committed. These verses are not good ones for those of us who believe the law is no longer the Christian's guide to prove anything. Personally I don't use them because scripture has left enough ammunition to prove we are not under the law.
Why you chose to use verses 16-18 is beyond my thinking, Verse 16, 17 tells me not to let anyone judge me of what I eat, drink, keeping of various festivals and the Sabbath
Man made commandments? That is a new explanation. I thought I had heard it all from SDAs trying to explain away not letting others judge us for not observing the old covenant Israelite only Sabbath that is a shadow and the reality is Jesus. Now you are saying that all those things we are not to be judged for doing or not doing were pseudo requirements made by man. You scare me friend. How far will you go to try to qualify your religions stance? Needless to say I believe your theory is absurd. ellen had better things to say about Col 2:16-17.Mark 2 and Mark 7 have the same thing going on -- trying to use man-made-commandments to judge Christ about the Sabbath and trying to judge His disciples for not ceremonially washing their fingers before eating wheat or drinking water.
WherePaul says Christians were facing that same sort of man-made-nonsense after the cross.
As it turns out man-made-nonsense is not restricted from using Bible topics to add its little innovations and inventions and then apply its own image, its own version of the LAW to others.
Oops! did you say somewhere you didn't completely agree? Has it been pointed out to you they even said the Sabbath has been changed fro Saturday to Sunday? Have you forgotten I even quoted one of your sources saying Saturday was merely their day off?Objectivity in this case is demonstrated by showing that even the pro-sunday scholars on your side of the fence - agree with me that the TEN commandments are included in the moral law of God - and that ALL TEN are binding on mankind - all TEN define what sin is -- not just some of them.
Your opposition to God's Ten Commandments is not merely a difference between you and the seventh day Bible Sabbath keeping Christians - it is also between you and a great many of your own pro-sunday scholars!
in Christ,
Bob
Maybe you should read your references above.The sins of "commandments and teachings of men", "self-made religion, "the tradition of men", " taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind" -- that Paul explicitly identifies as being the root of the problem in Col 2 -- is key to the entire chapter.
As for all of our sins - the LAW the moral law of God as we are told in Romans 3:19-21 creates the "certificate of debt" for each sinner in that 'the wages of sin is death" -- and that death is the torment and suffering in fire and brimstone in the lake of fire as we are told in Rev 14:10.
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