Col 2 does not condemn the Sabbath or Scripture

[roamer_1]

Hi Roamer, it is refreshing to hear from you. You, of course, have taken the stand that we are Christians are subject to the law of Moses because all has not been accomplished [...]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.

I presume you are not a believer in the writings of Paul [...]

I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.

If you were you would have run across the scripture that tells us the law indeed ended with Jesus at the Cross. He did indeed fulfill the law and His work on Earth is finished. [...] again that the 10 were only temporary laws that guided the Israelites and now the Holy Spirit is our/ Every Christian's guide.

That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.

Is 66 was mentioned upthread, and our SDA friend was right on that account. New moon to new moon, Sabbath to Sabbbath - Except that it points to the Moedim (the holy Days more so than the weekly Shabbat (albeit that Shabbat is included therein.)

Do you also disbelieve John's writings

Of course I believe John's writings are sound - But cherry-picking verses will give you little traction with me. John also says that sin is transgression of Torah. And likewise says that we know we love the Father when we are walking in his commandments.

Please explain why you feel need to observe laws meant only for Israelites.

I already did at the beginning of this post - but I would also add that the covenant was given to the House of Israel and the House of Judah - 'gentile' means 'out of covenant'. We are grafted unto Israel. And there is only one Torah for all of Israel.

Do you or your Messianic friends raise crops or animals. If so who do you take10 percent of those items to for the tithing laws?

I don't know what others do, but my tithe is generally converted to money and given to a church or needy family. Hunting and garden harvests are given directly to those in need.

Who is doing the daily, weekly and yearly Sacrificing?

A moot point - the sacrifice can only be made upon the altar on Moriah. Until that altar is there, there can be no sacrifice.

Are you following the laws pertaining to the cloth you wear?

Easily. I seldom wear anything but cotton and wool.

How about eating beef gravy made with milk taken from cows?

I do not follow that pharisaic misinterpretation.

Labels, labels labels, are you reading those labels to see what you are eating in this (according to Messianics and SDAs) sinful World?

Actually yes - Keeping (Christian) kosher is an ongoing learning activity for me, becoming easier and easier as I move away from store-bought foods and focus on raising my own garden. I buy my range fed chickens from the Hutterites, or SDA folks, and eat a lot of wild game and grass fed beef/buffalo. And because of fish, I now go fishing again - my freezer will be full of perch, trout, and salmon caught with my own hand.

It has added no end of pleasure to my life to go back to these simple country ways - As a redneck boy, I come by it honestly anyhow, and now I live it again, instead of doing it for fun on vacation time. And I eat so much better. Delicious high quality food.

On the other hand you who live by the Law of Moses will be judged by the Book of the Law.

Again, I think you are misinterpreting. Torah is forever - for all generations. I lve by grace through faith. I keep Torah because I love the Father and wish to obey him.

 

[roamer_1]

Oops! Sorry Bob, I missed a spot:

We Christians are not under the law of Moses. The law of Moses was for only the Israelites. Their Sabbaths, weekly and yearly, pointed back to Israelite history.

First of all, these are not Israel's feasts. These are YHWH's Feasts.

You have absolutely no idea how wrong you are. I will personally predict to you that if you would take the time to study YHWH's Holy Days, I doubt very much that you would ever go back to celebrating christmas and easter. Every_single_nuance of every_single_Feast is all and all about Messiah. I wept when I realized, and for what I had been deprived of for so very long.

I am not an Israelite.

You sound confident in that. Tell me, how many tribes were at the foot of Sinai? Judah (the Jews) are only three of those tribes.

Why should I celebrate being released from captivity from Egypt.

You mean Egypt the country, or Egypt the world? My Father has brought me out of the land of Egypt with a mighty, mighty hand. If you had an understanding, even of the Jewish (non-Messianic) sense of Passover, how personal and internal it is, you would not say what you do.

Why would I need to celebrate Passover or their harvest celebrations?

Study the Passover sincerely. Study how incrementally, how very exactly Yeshua fulfilled it's every aspect - SO very much more than you know. Then you will know that what you have been taught is not right. You will see that 3 days and 3 nights cannot have occurred from friday to sunday. Once you see that, you will be able to see how perfectly Yeshua fulfilled the Passover Lamb, and the Passover Priest - And that will lead you on to find out about the First Fruits offering that Sunday morning... Stunning detail. Hour by hour, minute by minute.

And that will bring you to the fulfillment of the weeks, and Shavuot .

And then, just maybe, you will contemplate on how absolutely perfectly the Spring Feasts have been fulfilled, and that will make you wonder about the Fall Feasts, and why they are not fulfilled - THEN you will know with all your heart that the Feasts of YHWH are not looking back. They are very definitely looking forward.

I am not subject to their Covenant. I am subject to Jesus Covenant, one that is not like the one given to Israel.

Careful now, the covenant that you are under was given to the House of Judah and to the House of Israel... If you are not Israel, what is your portion? *None*. But you ARE Israel. You are grafted in.

 

[Bob S]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.



That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.

Is 66 was mentioned upthread, and our SDA friend was right on that account. New moon to new moon, Sabbath to Sabbbath - Except that it points to the Moedim (the holy Days more so than the weekly Shabbat (albeit that Shabbat is included therein.)



Of course I believe John's writings are sound - But cherry-picking verses will give you little traction with me. John also says that sin is transgression of Torah. And likewise says that we know we love the Father when we are walking in his commandments.



I already did at the beginning of this post - but I would also add that the covenant was given to the House of Israel and the House of Judah - 'gentile' means 'out of covenant'. We are grafted unto Israel. And there is only one Torah for all of Israel.



I don't know what others do, but my tithe is generally converted to money and given to a church or needy family. Hunting and garden harvests are given directly to those in need.



A moot point - the sacrifice can only be made upon the altar on Moriah. Until that altar is there, there can be no sacrifice.



Easily. I seldom wear anything but cotton and wool.



I do not follow that pharisaic misinterpretation.



Actually yes - Keeping (Christian) kosher is an ongoing learning activity for me, becoming easier and easier as I move away from store-bought foods and focus on raising my own garden. I buy my range fed chickens from the Hutterites, or SDA folks, and eat a lot of wild game and grass fed beef/buffalo. And because of fish, I now go fishing again - my freezer will be full of perch, trout, and salmon caught with my own hand.

It has added no end of pleasure to my life to go back to these simple country ways - As a redneck boy, I come by it honestly anyhow, and now I live it again, instead of doing it for fun on vacation time. And I eat so much better. Delicious high quality food.



Again, I think you are misinterpreting. Torah is forever - for all generations. I lve by grace through faith. I keep Torah because I love the Father and wish to obey him.

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.
.

That is very commendable. I would entertain that you do not "keep" Torah as you admit below. You follow the teaching of the Torah where you are able. I recognize there is no priesthood and Temple to do all the requirements

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

I believe we can find half hearted attempts to obedience in all congregations. What I wonder is why someone would want to be obedient to laws that were not meant for them?

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.

The Son is our redeemer and Savor. He came and observed His Father's commands and ask His followers to observe His. If you believe the writings of John then you will have to admit Christians are under Jesus commands.
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Jesus own words tell us we are to keep Jesus commands. What did Jesus command. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

Paul comes across pretty clear to me. Maybe it is because I don't have any preconceived ideas. What is hard about: Gal 3:12? The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole. 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

I am not Hebrew, are you?

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

That is something you cannot accuse me of, but maybe you might come under that rule. The eason I am not guilty is because scripture tells me I, like the Gentiles throughout history have never been subject to Torah. We cannot take away something we never had can we.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah

Very true because He was born under Torah and died under Torah.

- One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

Expectations of who? No, He merely fulfilled meaning accomplished Torah. Why would He do that? Do you suppose He accomplished keeping Torah because no one could ever do it and Israel was doomed to Hell, doomed to Hell because they didn't keep their side of the bargain?

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

I am not a language scholar, so I accept your explanation

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Was the early church Messianic?

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.

Jesus was under the law. Paul was, by the gift of Jesus, under grace. You say Jesus, who is God, could not have changed Torah? Maybe you are not as scriptural savvy as you think.. Torah was the covenant. It could only last as long as both parties lived up to the agreement. The Israelites didn't live up to the demands of the law, so the agreement naturally ended. What is so hard about that. The covenant between the colony and Britain only lasted as long as both parties stayed true to the agreement. When England broke the agreement then the colonies were free from it. How could the old covenant last forever when one party didn't live up to the agreement? Lasting forever is nonsense. Is that covenant still binding? How could we be able to live under two different covenants at the same time

That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

Jews might think they are still under Torah, but history tells a different story. See above statement.

And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.

Clear as mud my friend. Please use scripture to back up your statements.

Is 66 was mentioned upthread, and our SDA friend was right on that account. New moon to new moon, Sabbath to Sabbbath - Except that it points to the Moedim (the holy Days more so than the weekly Shabbat (albeit that Shabbat is included therein.)

Is 66, well, lets talk about Is 66 and 65 where Isaiah is writing about the new earth. Men will live to be over 100 and after after worship the saints 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Nice afternoon walk? isn't there a better scripture to explain our Sabbath keeping in Heaven? Is it worth remaining virtuous for 100 more years of having to look at those who didn't live a virtuous life? Did Isaiah really paint the picture of eternity or are we confused and he was referring to some other event? In either case I have to wonder. The New Testament paints a wonderful picture with Jesus in Heaven.

Of course I believe John's writings are sound - But cherry-picking verses will give you little traction with me. John also says that sin is transgression of Torah. And likewise says that we know we love the Father when we are walking in his commandments.

Cherry picking? Sin is transgression of Jesus law of love. That is what I pasted. The law(commands) Christians are to live by are the love laws. Torah was finished when Israel could not live up to their end of the bargain. It officially ended when Jesus uttered "It is finished".

I already did at the beginning of this post - but I would also add that the covenant was given to the House of Israel and the House of Judah - 'gentile' means 'out of covenant'. We are grafted unto Israel. And there is only one Torah for all of Israel.

Noah and God had a covenant. What was Noah other than a gentile? Where did you come up with "out of covenant"?

Where do you get that we are grafted into Israel? Israel broke the covenant, why would we be grafted into Israel. Abraham is the father of God's people and I believe we are grafted into him. Jews are saved the same way gentiles are, one by one.

I don't know what others do, but my tithe is generally converted to money and given to a church or needy family. Hunting and garden harvests are given directly to those in need.

If you are Torah observant tithe was never paid in shekels and not all Israelites paid tithe. A tent maker would not have been a tithe payer.

A moot point - the sacrifice can only be made upon the altar on Moriah. Until that altar is there, there can be no sacrifice.

Too bad, I guess you are not truly Torah observant are you.

Actually yes - Keeping (Christian) kosher is an ongoing learning activity for me, becoming easier and easier as I move away from store-bought foods and focus on raising my own garden. I buy my range fed chickens from the Hutterites, or SDA folks, and eat a lot of wild game and grass fed beef/buffalo. And because of fish, I now go fishing again - my freezer will be full of perch, trout, and salmon caught with my own hand.

It has added no end of pleasure to my life to go back to these simple country ways - As a redneck boy, I come by it honestly anyhow, and now I live it again, instead of doing it for fun on vacation time. And I eat so much better. Delicious high quality food.

Sounds good.

Again, I think you are misinterpreting. Torah is forever - for all generations. I lve by grace through faith. I keep Torah because I love the Father and wish to obey him

How can it be when Torah, the covenant was broken. There is no Torah covenant. It went away when it was disregarded by Israel. May I say God endured many many years of disobedience before Jesus finally came and ended it all at the Cross. Praise the Lord for a better covenant.

 

[Bob S]

Oops! Sorry Bob, I missed a spot:

First of all, these are not Israel's feasts. These are YHWH's Feasts.

Maybe we are getting a bit picky, but I will respond by submitting to you that the feasts were part of the covenant. Israel accepted what God planned, they accepted the covenant. The feasts belonged to both parties. Why are we debating this?

You have absolutely no idea how wrong you are. I will personally predict to you that if you would take the time to study YHWH's Holy Days, I doubt very much that you would ever go back to celebrating christmas and easter. Every_single_nuance of every_single_Feast is all and all about Messiah. I wept when I realized, and for what I had been deprived of for so very long.

It would seem that you have superior knowledge knowing what I would do. Actually, I have no reason to study the details of a covenant that has expired. There are no Christian requirements to observe feasts, new moons, Sabbaths, wearing tassels or anything else pertaining to defunct Israel and its covenant.

You sound confident in that. Tell me, how many tribes were at the foot of Sinai? Judah (the Jews) are only three of those tribes.

This is not a classroom friend. If you do not know then it is very easy to find. What does that have to do with me not being an Israelite? Even if I were an Israelite the covenant was broken and is no longer in existence. No wonder Paul could write with such confidence. He knew that Jesus ended the agreement God had with Israel. He knew because the plan of salvation was instituted before the foundation of the Earth. God knew that Israel would fail hence when it did the covenant was nullified. It is history. It was part of God's plan just as the new and better covenant is part of the plan. You are serving a long gone covenant that never worked

You mean Egypt the country, or Egypt the world? My Father has brought me out of the land of Egypt with a mighty, mighty hand. If you had an understanding, even of the Jewish (non-Messianic) sense of Passover, how personal and internal it is, you would not say what you do.

Why did you ask which I meant? Must I write on egg shells when responding to you? Are you trying to show superior knowledge. Is the world ever referred to as Egypt?

I have no need nor inclination to observe a law that was not for me and ended at the Cross. The Lord's supper commemorating giving His life to save me from perdition is my Passover. I celebrate it with joy knowing my salvation is secured. Amen!

Study the Passover sincerely. Study how incrementally, how very exactly Yeshua fulfilled it's every aspect - SO very much more than you know. Then you will know that what you have been taught is not right. You will see that 3 days and 3 nights cannot have occurred from friday to sunday. Once you see that, you will be able to see how perfectly Yeshua fulfilled the Passover Lamb, and the Passover Priest - And that will lead you on to find out about the First Fruits offering that Sunday morning... Stunning detail. Hour by hour, minute by minute.

I have no inclination to debating what day Jesus was crucified or when He arose. I will debate the fact that He ushered in the Lord's Supper for all mankind and annulled the Passover as a law. Passover is history. If a person feels a need to study it fine. It has nothing to do with our salvation

And that will bring you to the fulfillment of the weeks, and Shavuot .

Sounds very mysterious. Since I am not a student of the particulars of the now defunct Israelite rituals I really don't know how to answer.

And then, just maybe, you will contemplate on how absolutely perfectly the Spring Feasts have been fulfilled, and that will make you wonder about the Fall Feasts, and why they are not fulfilled - THEN you will know with all your heart that the Feasts of YHWH are not looking back. They are very definitely looking forward.

You are free to study the now defunct law of Moses and take valuable time doing so. I choose to study our perfect Savior and all He has done to assure my salvation. I choose to follow the the Holy Spirit and the law of love that are in my heart.

Careful now, the covenant that you are under was given to the House of Judah and to the House of Israel... If you are not Israel, what is your portion? *None*. But you ARE Israel. You are grafted in.

I can only say that instead of studying the old covenant so much I would study the Gospels, Paul, and the books written by John. Didn't Jesus open salvation to all mankind when He instructed the disciples to go into ALL the World spreading the GOOD NEWS to ALL nations? Is it an obligation for me to have to become an Israelite in order to attain salvation? Where in scripture does it tell me my becoming a Jew will give me a "portion"? Where in scripture does it tell me I must be grafted into now defunct Israel?

Please read and study the following:
John 3:16New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Isn't that the most edifying bit of scripture in all the Bible. No stipulations like first becoming or doing anything. Nothing about having to be an Israelite to be part of the new covenant. Nothing about observing the now defunct rituals given only to Israel for a period of time. WOW! Claim the Promises.[/QUOTE]

 

[bugkiller]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

Exactly what is it about Torah you seem to think we don't understand?

Could you please explain what Paul means by the law is dead?

Would you please explain what but we are now delivered from the law means? Please don't add anything to the text. Thanks.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.

Would you mind explaining -

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. JN 1

and

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. JN 15

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.



That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

Then Jeremiah and Jesus both lied.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.



That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.

Is 66 was mentioned upthread, and our SDA friend was right on that account. New moon to new moon, Sabbath to Sabbbath - Except that it points to the Moedim (the holy Days more so than the weekly Shabbat (albeit that Shabbat is included therein.)



Of course I believe John's writings are sound - But cherry-picking verses will give you little traction with me. John also says that sin is transgression of Torah. And likewise says that we know we love the Father when we are walking in his commandments.

Now just who is cherry picking? You refused to even use the whole sentence to support your teaching. You make it sound like sin is only violation of the law. Problem is my Bible says sin was before the law and the law came because of sin. Rom 5 and Gal 3

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.



That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.

Is 66 was mentioned upthread, and our SDA friend was right on that account. New moon to new moon, Sabbath to Sabbbath - Except that it points to the Moedim (the holy Days more so than the weekly Shabbat (albeit that Shabbat is included therein.)



Of course I believe John's writings are sound - But cherry-picking verses will give you little traction with me. John also says that sin is transgression of Torah. And likewise says that we know we love the Father when we are walking in his commandments.



I already did at the beginning of this post - but I would also add that the covenant was given to the House of Israel and the House of Judah - 'gentile' means 'out of covenant'. We are grafted unto Israel. And there is only one Torah for all of Israel.

No sir. Christians aren't graft into Israel as you suppose. We're graft into the Root, not the tree. The Root is Jesus the Christ. Furthermore we're made to partake in the promise issued to Abraham.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That is basically right - but I want to emphasize one thing right off the bat:
I do not keep Torah for merit, nor do I keep it for fear of reprisal... I keep Torah because I love the Father and because I follow Yeshua. I think that is the context that he wanted all along.

Understand: I am not bound any longer to the law by curses, hung on a tree - but rather by the love of the Father. I WANT to learn to walk in his paths, and in that I think, the law is 'written on the heart'. It is true that grace abounds, but in recognizing that, I think that Christendom in general has forgone the concept of obedience.

To love the Father is to obey him. To keep his commandments. To love Yeshua is to walk in his way.




I certainly read Paul But I would caution that Paul is very hard to understand without knowledge of Torah. And Paul must equally be balanced with James and with John - They are necessarily commenting upon the same Gospel, and they all serve the same master.

There is a matter of structure here that necessarily must be observed from a Hebrew perspective:

1.) Anyone who adds to or takes away from Torah is by definition a false prophet. Period.

2.)Hence, Yeshua cannot have taught a single thing other than Torah - One of the expectations of Messiah has always been that he would teach men to keep Torah correctly. So Yeshua (as he declared) did not come to destroy the law, nor the prophets.

3.)A disciple (talmudim) is *not* what we think it is - We get our definition from the Greeks and Romans. To the Hebrew it is a far stricter thing than 'sitting at the knee of a teacher'.

In that, one needs to know that a disciple cannot gainsay his master, else he no longer follows his master and has created a new assembly (church).

Hence Paul cannot have changed what Yeshua said, and Yeshua cannot have changed Torah. Understanding that changes the entire perspective of interpretation.



That interpretation cannot be true without destroying both the law and the prophets. Torah, as any Jew can tell you, is eternal, to be kept by all the generations of Israel. That proscription cannot be added to, nor taken away.

And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.

Is 66 was mentioned upthread, and our SDA friend was right on that account. New moon to new moon, Sabbath to Sabbbath - Except that it points to the Moedim (the holy Days more so than the weekly Shabbat (albeit that Shabbat is included therein.)



Of course I believe John's writings are sound - But cherry-picking verses will give you little traction with me. John also says that sin is transgression of Torah. And likewise says that we know we love the Father when we are walking in his commandments.



I already did at the beginning of this post - but I would also add that the covenant was given to the House of Israel and the House of Judah - 'gentile' means 'out of covenant'. We are grafted unto Israel. And there is only one Torah for all of Israel.



I don't know what others do, but my tithe is generally converted to money and given to a church or needy family. Hunting and garden harvests are given directly to those in need.



A moot point - the sacrifice can only be made upon the altar on Moriah. Until that altar is there, there can be no sacrifice.

So what about the jots and tittles of the law? Did they pass for a spell or something?

bugkiller

 

[roamer_1]

Maybe we are getting a bit picky, but I will respond by submitting to you that the feasts were part of the covenant. Israel accepted what God planned, they accepted the covenant. The feasts belonged to both parties. Why are we debating this?

Haven't forgotten you Bob - Snowed a bunch yesterday - Plowed out three times, and another 6 or 8" on the ground again this morning... Thankfully, all my shovels have motors , but I am distracted from my missive once again.

Soon.

 

[Bob S]

Haven't forgotten you Bob - Snowed a bunch yesterday - Plowed out three times, and another 6 or 8" on the ground again this morning... Thankfully, all my shovels have motors , but I am distracted from my missive once again.

Soon.

I do not envy you. We got 5" last week. Normally it comes one day and is gone the next. Stay warm and I hope the electric stays on. B

 

[BobRyan]

Careful now, the covenant that you are under was given to the House of Judah and to the House of Israel... If you are not Israel, what is your portion? *None*. But you ARE Israel. You are grafted in.

Amen!

Very good point.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!

 

[BobRyan]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------

If you would only recognize that you have bound yourself to a couple of old cold stones, and I should add ellen White, that were/are the ministry of death 2Cor3 and all of her books, when you could be responding to the direction of the Holy Spirit. Millions of SDAs are ...

Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.

seeing the Light and are running from Adventism.

The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --

Apparently ol Dwight didn't study the new covenant

Apparently D.L. Moody and R.C. Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon DID study the New Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:610

 

[bugkiller]

I do not envy you. We got 5" last week. Normally it comes one day and is gone the next. Stay warm and I hope the electric stays on. B

I'm still waiting on winter here. Been in the upper 70's. It supposed to be winter. Guess they're trying to make me a believer in global warming. Problem is it was colder hundreds of miles south of me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Amen!

Very good point.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!

Any one who will read the NT understands this also applies to Gentiles, even surprising Peter. It however isn't a reference to the covenant made with Israel at Sinai.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

- D.L. Moody notices that some are opposed to the Sabbath Commandment - but notice how this sermon on the TEN Commandments also fits the summary of 7 points listed here on page 1??

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

BY THE
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.
The Fourth Commandment


Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.​

[FONT=&quot]THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes;

------------------------------------------



Hint - Moody was not SDA... neither was C.H. Spurgeon... neither the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- neither the RCC. Your own pro-sunday sources refute the attack you make against God's Law.



The SDA church in North America is one of the fastest grown North American churches. And world wide has grown by over 400% since 1980 --




Apparently D.L. Moody and R.C. Sproul, and C.H. Spurgeon DID study the New Covenant "I will write My LAW on their heart and on their mind" - Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:610

Then why oh why are so many SDA parking lots not overflowing on Saturday. Even my SDA neighbor said his church was dying.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Annecdotally you "found one" - that is mere "fluff"

Statistically it is one of the fastest growing churches in America and the 5th largest church in the world - having grown by over 400% since 1980.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Amen!

Very good point.

Jer 31:31-33 the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" -- was given to "the House of Judah and to the House of Israel" -- and continues that same way - in Hebrews 8:6-10.

Irrefutable!

Any one who will read the NT understands this also applies to Gentiles, even surprising Peter. It however isn't a reference to the covenant made with Israel at Sinai.
bugkiller

Because in Heb 8:6-10 it is STILL the covenant with the "House of Judah and the House of Israel" for as Romans 2 points out "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

 

[roamer_1]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your patience.

That is very commendable. I would entertain that you do not "keep" Torah as you admit below. You follow the teaching of the Torah where you are able. I recognize there is no priesthood and Temple to do all the requirements

I would submit that your view of keeping Torah is not correct., naturally tinged by a centuries old Christian bias, and Christian acceptance that the Pharisaical interpretation of Torah is the proper one - Which is ludicrous, because in every instance, Yeshua beat down that interpretation as being invalid.

I believe we can find half hearted attempts to obedience in all congregations. What I wonder is why someone would want to be obedient to laws that were not meant for them?

This is not a matter of halfheartedness, but rather, either the obvious need for a learning curve, or that the proscription is impossible to perform:

If I were to convince you, and you had a change of mind, it would naturally take years for you to begin to walk in Torah, because it is a knowing... a way, and not the letter of the law - The letter of the law kills, as we all know. Do I keep Torah perfectly? No. But I am learning, and I desire to do better.

And as to the proscription impossible to perform: What if a man is far away from Jerusalem, and too poor to make the pilgrimage for the three feasts which must be kept at Jerusalem. What is he to do?

If your ox falls in a well on the Sabbath, do you not pull it out?

Christians have read in an absolute nature that the Bible itself denies. Again, Pharisaical.

The Son is our redeemer and Savor. He came and observed His Father's commands and ask His followers to observe His. If you believe the writings of John then you will have to admit Christians are under Jesus commands.

Of course - maybe more so than you do, as I see the Master/disciple thing as the basis of the assembly (church). Every word out of the Master's mouth is truth to the disciple. Every commandment of the Master is sacrosanct. Here is another of his commands:

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Now, you might see this command as having been nullified - The avg. Christian discounts this as being before the cross. Yet all is *not*, most emphatically *not* fulfilled - Not only in the prophets, but in the law itself (I have already explained that the fall feasts' fulfillment is yet to come).

In the reconciliation of the matter, I would see BOTH commandments - the one you offered as example, and the one I placed directly above - BOTH are true and valid! And that changes the perspective of the New Testament in profound ways. And that perspective changes the way one interprets.

Paul comes across pretty clear to me. Maybe it is because I don't have any preconceived ideas.

I would submit that it is a rare thing for Christians to come at the Bible without preconceived ideas. All are biased toward their denominational or confessional traditions. I know it was incredibly hard for me to cast off traditions, once I realized they were present. Replacement Theology among the worst of them. It has blinded the churches for millennia.

I am not Hebrew, are you?

That is something you cannot accuse me of, but maybe you might come under that rule. The eason I am not guilty is because scripture tells me I, like the Gentiles throughout history have never been subject to Torah. We cannot take away something we never had can we.

You miss the point. I was not being accusatory. The Bible was written by Hebrews. Not understanding their customs, culture, and perspective, one misses much. I have used the example of the disciple with this in mind. You are the disciple of a Rabbi. Don't you think it would be important to find out what that means?

If one takes off the Rome colored glasses, and wipes the Greece from one's eyes, everything looks completely different.

Expectations of who? No, He merely fulfilled meaning accomplished Torah. Why would He do that? Do you suppose He accomplished keeping Torah because no one could ever do it and Israel was doomed to Hell, doomed to Hell because they didn't keep their side of the bargain?

The expectation of the Hebrews according to the prophets... One of the many facets of Messiah is as the greatest prophet. Prophets are there to stand in the breach - Direct authority and direct word from the Father. Think about what that is for.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Was the early church Messianic?

Most certainly, if one is speaking of the Apostolic Church.

Jesus was under the law. Paul was, by the gift of Jesus, under grace. You say Jesus, who is God, could not have changed Torah?

In fact, no.

Pro_4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

Joh_7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. ​

Again, this is a structural matter. *THE* thing that separates YHWH from all contenders (as to the proof that he, and he alone, is God) is the fact that he declares from the beginning what will be in the end. NO prophet can alter what has already been said. That is why the prophets judge the prophets. And in that, it all must necessarily winnow back to the absolutes defined in Torah - That which was said in the beginning.

We are assured that YHWH does not change. We are assured that his word will never come back to him empty.

Maybe you are not as scriptural savvy as you think.. Torah was the covenant.

No, Torah is many covenants. Edenic, Adamic, Noahdic, Abrahamic, Melchizedek, Mosaic, Davidic, just to name a few. And also the Inheritance... All of these interact - The previous covenant(s) being rolled into the next.And some things certainly are conditional, but others are set in stone - Explicit (regardless of failure). It is nowhere near as straightforward as you have indicated.

[roamer_1:] And the prophets clearly show a day that Torah shall go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep it - The ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple are enough to get you started on that.​

Clear as mud my friend. Please use scripture to back up your statements.

You wish for me to post the ending chapters of Isaiah and Ezekiel's Temple?

isn't there a better scripture to explain our Sabbath keeping in Heaven? Is it worth remaining virtuous for 100 more years of having to look at those who didn't live a virtuous life? Did Isaiah really paint the picture of eternity or are we confused and he was referring to some other event? In either case I have to wonder. The New Testament paints a wonderful picture with Jesus in Heaven.

Well, to begin with, Jerusalem is coming down here. How does that fit with what you see?

Cherry picking? Sin is transgression of Jesus law of love. That is what I pasted. The law(commands) Christians are to live by are the love laws. Torah was finished when Israel could not live up to their end of the bargain. It officially ended when Jesus uttered "It is finished".

So 'sin' is whatever feels bad to you? There is no further definition? Of course not. Torah is there so that we might know that we sin. so that sin is defined. and so that we can tell when someone is feeding us a bill of goods - This very OP is an example of that: If the doctrine that you listen to is at odds with what YHWH explicitly defined as the Sabbath, which do you listen to, YHWH or man? By which standard do you judge those who are teaching you?

Where do you get that we are grafted into Israel? Israel broke the covenant, why would we be grafted into Israel. Abraham is the father of God's people and I believe we are grafted into him. Jews are saved the same way gentiles are, one by one.

Where do you think that circumcision v. uncircumcision comes from? Why is Goyim (Gentiles) a Jewish pejorative? This is a perfect example of something you miss if you look at the strict meaning of the word, without it's cultural significance.

Look at Is 53-54. Obviously Is53 is the cross... Immediately after the cross, in Is54 is a barren woman who is told to leap for joy. Who is that barren woman? She 'inherits the Gentiles'.

Too bad, I guess you are not truly Torah observant are you.

That wouldn't be yours to judge.

How can it be when Torah, the covenant was broken. There is no Torah covenant. It went away when it was disregarded by Israel. May I say God endured many many years of disobedience before Jesus finally came and ended it all at the Cross. Praise the Lord for a better covenant.

Yeshua told his disciples to keep Torah, as I have already shown above. Those words ratify Moses into the new covenant.

Rev_15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. ​