[closed] Major Changes to posting in this forum

[Hillsage]

Non-Trinitarian Messianics do believe that Christ is indeed God as defined in the OP.
And the God they believe in is the eternal, uncreated and un-evolved Being who is the creator of all.

This group are referred to in CF as non-Nicene Christians.

Now I'm confused. When I asked for the bare minimum of belief you just said;

Of course.
The Nicene Creed which is CF's statement of faith, unifies almost every Christian.

And now you have a 'non-Nicene Christian' category? I'm having trouble here with 'consistency'...almost. I hope you can see why.

What is the bare minimum? I posted it in the OP - the deity of Christ.

I never heard Billy Graham make such a qualifier in his crusades. Son of God...yes, but I don't ever remember 'Jesus is God' being in any message. Do you think they still got saved? I do.

Oh well, I've probably said enough. It's obvious you're pretty busy here.

 

[Tishri1]

Reading 'this' might make one think you're saying you do not agree with the site's decision. Another view would lead one to think you do agree, but never confronted those young boys with 'the truth'. If that's so, then why not?

Hi Hillsage,

You are correct I never had to deal with LDS teaching with these boys and their families and never once tried to as well. We lived in relative peace and rarely conversed above chit chat about our boys and their sports and school activities.

CF is a vastly different environment and it seems to always be about discussing doctrine and teaching others about our religious beliefs.

If I had to discuss doctrine with the boys or their families and that was the purpose of our relationship, I think neither of us would ever be able to survive.

 

[A New Dawn]

This may seem naive ... but why is it so important to CF to define whom may be considered "Christian" via such methods ? You already have icons and such for the specific denominations, sects, branches, perspectives, etc. Why try to box people in and out in such a way even further ?

Until now, the selection of icons and the labeling of who could be called an orthodox Christian had to do with who could post where. Some sections of f the board were set apart for discussion of theology or denominational issues specific to mainstream Christianity, and those people who held different beliefs were not allowed to post there. And people were allowed to self-identify what they considered themselves to be.

The issue is that now they are not allowing those who hold to some unorthodox beliefs to self-identify as Christian.

 

[Edial]

Now I'm confused. When I asked for the bare minimum of belief you just said;

And now you have a 'non-Nicene Christian' category? I'm having trouble here with 'consistency'...almost. I hope you can see why.

I never heard Billy Graham make such a qualifier in his crusades. Son of God...yes, but I don't ever remember 'Jesus is God' being in any message. Do you think they still got saved? I do.

Oh well, I've probably said enough. It's obvious you're pretty busy here.

There were 2 contexts to the questions. As You can see I have a lot of posts here.
One is - the bare minimum in order to be called a Christian faith group, is the deity of Christ.
The other is - the common teachings that unite the majority of Christians is the Nicene Creed.

There may be non-Nicene Christians.
They meet the bare minimum to be called a Christian yet do not follow the entire Nicene Creed.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[A New Dawn]

But with all these others(non-nicene groups), there are only minor controverial beliefs (none having to do with the divine nature of God /Jesus).

I think that is not true with the non-Trinitarian Messianics, Tishri. At least the LDS believe in a form of Trinitarianism. I can't see now not believing in a Trinity is only a minor controversial belief. IMO, if the LDS are kicked out of the Christian club because of their non-trinitarian beliefs, so should the non-trinitarian Messianics.

 

[Architeuthus]

Non-Trinitarian Messianics do believe that Christ is indeed God as defined in the OP.

It's just that, going through old posts, I could see some that denied that.

 

[Edial]

Until now, the selection of icons and the labeling of who could be called an orthodox Christian had to do with who could post where. Some sections of f the board were set apart for discussion of theology or denominational issues specific to mainstream Christianity, and those people who held different beliefs were not allowed to post there. And people were allowed to self-identify what they considered themselves to be.

The issue is that now they are not allowing those who hold to some unorthodox beliefs to self-identify as Christian.

It is not some unorthodox beliefs, Dawn.

If you do not appreciate the difference and gravity between Christ in JW or LDS and Christ of the Bible maybe we can continue discussing this in MSC.

As I said, people may identify themselves anyhow they want.
It is not however a rule violation for someone to state that anyone wearing a non-Christian icon identifying himself as Christian is a non-Christian.

And CF considers that anyone not agreeing to the deity of Christ is a non-Christian in a direct and literal, biblical context of the word.

And if we see that someone is wearing a Christian icon while clearly not agreeing to the deity of Christ, it is a misrepresentation at CF and we would notify that individual s/he is violating CF rules.

 

[Edial]

Closing for the night.

 

[Edial]

Open.

 

[Edial]

It's just that, going through old posts, I could see some that denied that.

Some individuals could have denied that, but we need to go by their general theology and not individual folks.
In their case it is complicated, since they in a sense see Christ as "part" of one God, something like that.
They do however believe the divinity and eternity of Christ as well as the full divinity and eternity of God of the OT.

 

[Edial]

I think that is not true with the non-Trinitarian Messianics, Tishri. At least the LDS believe in a form of Trinitarianism. I can't see now not believing in a Trinity is only a minor controversial belief. IMO, if the LDS are kicked out of the Christian club because of their non-trinitarian beliefs, so should the non-trinitarian Messianics.

Dawn, you should not be calling Orthodox Christianity a Christian Club. You should know better than that.

The demarcation line is not Trinity, but the Deity of Christ.
It is Who Christ claims to be what matters for salvation.
If one believes in Jesus other who he claims to be one is still in their sins, John 8 (forgot the verse, posted here few times).
This is the difference. Identity of Christ in the light of eternal and unchangeable God of the OT.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Dawn, you should not be calling Orthodox Christianity a Christian Club. You should know better than that.

The demarcation line is not Trinity, but the Deity of Christ.
It is Who Christ claims to be what matters for salvation.
If one believes in Jesus other who he claims to be one is still in their sins, John 8 (forgot the verse, posted here few times).
This is the difference. Identity of Christ in the light of eternal and unchangeable God of the OT.

From what I understand Mormonism doesn't truly believe in the trinity either but a sort of polytheistic model where there are more than just 3 "gods" in it all. In other words the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren't "ONE" God but 3 "gods" to them and there is a "mother God" also in the midst of it all plus they believe they can become through works EQUAL to Jesus himself in a fashion (become a god). One has to play a game akin to politics to hide these beliefs and act like (to orthodox Christians) they don't really exist such as to "appear" to be just like everyone else (Christian). I find is hard to believe in a god that was created by a god that was in effect created by another god and so on one could consider that none of their gods were ever uncreated which flies in the face of Christian trinitarian beliefs.
It is this sort of chameleon approach that they have taken to blend in with fellow "Christians" so as to win converts to Mormonism by essentially starting with the orthodox and slowly drawing them towards the unorthodox in steps till they believe the unorthodox disguised as orthodox.

 

[Theway]

Hi,
And with this kind of abusive or semi-abusive speech you want to join the Nicene types who have prohibitions against not being this way.
Again. I thank the staff.
...Kate., .... .

Oh, you get me wrong. My first comment was rhetorical. I could care less about being known as a Christian, considering how that name has been dragged through the mud by those who claim to be its adherents. I actually fear the day when we are accepted by the majority of Christianity. Because as the Bible tells you, true followers of Christ will be hated by the world; for the world will love its own. Christianity has become part of the world. As pointed out in a book by one of your own: unChristiban: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity ... And Why It Matters.

That's why I said we are in good company. For the first Followers of Christ were called a cult also.... Acts 24:14 “But I admit that I follow the Way, which they call a cult..."
As were the first Protestants, etc...

LOL... In fact as evidenced by the verse I posted, ironically, I'm the only one on this forum which carries the "the true name" used by a follower of Christ; "THE WAY"
See... Acts 9:2; Acts 19:9, Acts 19:23, Acts 11:26, Acts 24:22

The term "Christian" was actually a term used to mock those who called themselves "The Way". Much like the name "Mormons" was given to us by those who persecuted us, but it is not our true name.

Got to love that irony...

 

[Edial]

From what I understand Mormonism doesn't truly believe in the trinity either but a sort of polytheistic model where there are more than just 3 "gods" in it all. In other words the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren't "ONE" God but 3 "gods" to them and there is a "mother God" also in the midst of it all plus they believe they can become through works EQUAL to Jesus himself in a fashion (become a god). One has to play a game akin to politics to hide these beliefs and act like (to orthodox Christians) they don't really exist such as to "appear" to be just like everyone else (Christian). I find is hard to believe in a god that was created by a god that was in effect created by another god and so on one could consider that none of their gods were ever uncreated which flies in the face of Christian trinitarian beliefs.
It is this sort of chameleon approach that they have taken to blend in with fellow "Christians" so as to win converts to Mormonism by essentially starting with the orthodox and slowly drawing them towards the unorthodox in steps till they believe the unorthodox disguised as orthodox.

Unfortunately that is how it works.

The best CF can do at this time is to clearly state what group is considered here a Nicene Christian, a non-Nicene Christian and a non-Christian.

 

[Sojourner1]

Just stopping by to say that this forum will be moved to the Theology Category sometime today. Appreciate everyone's input in this thread, however, the decision is final. We do want to emphasize that we have decided that specific religious groups do not qualify to be considered Christians according to the Nicene creed and CF Statement of Faith. We are not making judgement calls about the salvation of individual people who are members of these denominations. We are making a judgement call about the theology of the denominations themselves. If someone is a mormon and has chosen that faith icon, and yet they believe in the deity of Christ and all that the Nicene creed states, they are still associating themselves with the beliefs of the Mormon church and therefore may not post in the Christian only forums.

 

[psalms 91]

Oh, you get me wrong. My first comment was rhetorical. I could care less about being known as a Christian, considering how that name has been dragged through the mud by those who claim to be its adherents. I actually fear the day when we are accepted by the majority of Christianity. Because as the Bible tells you, true followers of Christ will be hated by the world; for the world will love its own. Christianity has become part of the world. As pointed out in a book by one of your own: unChristiban: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity ... And Why It Matters.

That's why I said we are in good company. For the first Followers of Christ were called a cult also.... Acts 24:14 “But I admit that I follow the Way, which they call a cult..."
As were the first Protestants, etc...

LOL... In fact as evidenced by the verse I posted, ironically, I'm the only one on this forum which carries the "the true name" used by a follower of Christ; "THE WAY"
See... Acts 9:2; Acts 19:9, Acts 19:23, Acts 11:26, Acts 24:22

The term "Christian" was actually a term used to mock those who called themselves "The Way". Much like the name "Mormons" was given to us by those who persecuted us, but it is not our true name.

Got to love that irony...

Actually Jesus laid out the WAay in Matthew Mark Luke and John and if that is what you mean then I follow the way. It is your beliefs about Jesus and quite a few other things that set you apart from Christianity, not that your right because no denom has it all right to begin with.

 

[Edial]

I believe Christ is who He claims to be... Can I join your Christian Club now.

...

This here is a report-free thread.
But if you would be calling Christianity a "Christian Club" elsewhere at CF it is in violation of flaming rules.

Just giving you a heads up.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Dawn, you should not be calling Orthodox Christianity a Christian Club. You should know better than that.

The demarcation line is not Trinity, but the Deity of Christ.
It is Who Christ claims to be what matters for salvation.
If one believes in Jesus other who he claims to be one is still in their sins, John 8 (forgot the verse, posted here few times).
This is the difference. Identity of Christ in the light of eternal and unchangeable God of the OT.

LDS unequivocally recognize the deity of Christ! We emphatically assert that Christ "is who He claims to be"! There can be no rational reconciliation of your explanation with LDS beliefs.

 

[Edial]

We went through this few times.
Let me do it one more time.

This is CF's statement

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF.
​

We define God as eternal in the past and the future, unchangeable, creator of heaven and earth.

LDS considers God who once was a man just like you and I and eventually became God.

Consequently, LDS considers Jesus to be the very "god" they define as "God" ... who is not the God of the Bible.

 

[TasteForTruth]

We went through this few times.
Let me do it one more time.

This is CF's statement

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF.
​

We define God as eternal in the past and the future, unchangeable, creator of heaven and earth.

LDS considers God who once was a man just like you and I and eventually became God.

Consequently, LDS considers Jesus to be the very "god" they define as "God" ... who is not the God of the Bible.

We do not deny the "full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ." We do not deny "His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person." We do not!