[closed] Major Changes to posting in this forum

[Edial]

Ahhhhh.... No he didn't, perhaps you need to read your own references you quoted.
First, Joseph Smith did not have a doctrine...
Second, Joseph Smith merely wanted to know which existing Church's doctrine at the time was correct.
Third, it was God who told them they were incorrect. Joseph Smith even said that it hadn't even entered his heart that they were all incorrect.
Fourth, it does not say the hearts of the Niceans Christians were far from God...

Now you can say you don't believe God told him anything, and that it was Joseph Smith who made it all up... But then you would be judging us by what "YOU" believe to true, and not by what we actually believe. IIRC you said you did not do this?

I quoted what he said, what he said the god said.
I also quoted the official LDS commentary and summary on it.
Cannot get clearer than that.

 

[TillICollapse]

Because Christianity is not a club.

It is a set of beliefs revealing the good news of salvation of Jesus Christ.
Not the Apostles nor the Church Fathers had any doubts how to define a Christian.

Since Christianity is not a club, but a message of salvation of the forgiveness of sins, it needs to be clearly presented.

If we identify anyone who wishes to be called a Christian as Christian regardless of the heresies that are being taught, Christianity becomes a club.

Thanks,
Ed

By what authority do you have to determine who is Christian or not ? And how would you show such authority was legitimate ?

 

[Edial]

By what authority do you have to determine who is Christian or not ? And how would you show such authority was legitimate ?

I suggest you read the thread and see the verse where Christ says that unless they believe who he claims to be they shall perish in their sins.

Also, each major branch of Christianity determined JW and Mormons to be Christian cults, false religions.

We did not make this up.

We confirmed that what the Scriptures and historical Christianity says.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sophrosyne]

By what authority do you have to determine who is Christian or not ? And how would you show such authority was legitimate ?

Are you a Christian or not?

 

[Hillsage]

Hi everyone,

I never had to tell these boys or their families that I felt there was something wrong with their leaders or religion's teachings. These differences between us never came up.

Reading 'this' might make one think you're saying you do not agree with the site's decision. Another view would lead one to think you do agree, but never confronted those young boys with 'the truth'. If that's so, then why not?

If both thoughts are 'wrong' would you clarify just what this post's purpose was?

Thanks,

 

[Hillsage]

Because Christianity is not a club.

I know this is 'bad' but I had to chuckle at this. I actually often say it's 666 different denominations/clubs, all claiming their 'denomination/club' is really the 'right', or at least 'more correct' one.

Since Christianity is not a club, but a message of salvation of the forgiveness of sins, it needs to be clearly presented.

Could you give me the 'bare minimum' required to accomplish that "message" in your opinion?

Not meaning to be adversarial here. Just trying to be observational as to difficulties of the site's recent decision IMO.

 

[TillICollapse]

I suggest you read the thread and see the verse where Christ says that unless they believe who he claims to be they shall perish in their sins.

You're referencing John 8, correct ? I didn't take the time to re-read the entire thread, I know that's a bit lazy of me.

Also, each major branch of Christianity determined JW and Mormons to be Christian cults, false religions.

We did not make this up.

We confirmed that what the Scriptures and historical Christianity says.

Thanks,
Ed

I don't totally see where you answered my question, so are you saying you are appealing to your interpretation of scripture and what other Christians say ?

Are you a Christian or not?

I've been told by some people that I am. I've found it largely depends on the one asking, whether I pass muster with them or not.

 

[katerinah1947]

Here is the new organization of the Faith Groups:

Christian


Nicene (Orthodox):

Anabaptist:

Anglican:

Baptist:

Calvary-Chapel:

Calvinist:

Catholic:

Charismatic:

Generic Orthodox Christian:

Christian-Seeker:

Eastern-Orthodox:

Lutheran:

Messianic:

Methodist:

Nazarene:

Non-Denominational:

Oriental-Orthodox:

Pentecostal:

Presbyterian:

Protestant:

Salvation Army:

Seventh-Day Adventist:

United Church of Christ:

Utrecht:

Wesleyan:

Word-Of-Faith:

Non-Nicene (Unorthodox):


Non-Trinitarian-Messianic:

Oneness:

Other Church-Unorthodox:

Non-Christian

Agnostic:

Atheist:

Buddhist:

Deist:

Hindu:

Humanist:

Jehovahs-Witness:

Judaism:

Mormon:

Muslim:

Other-Religion:

Pagan:

Pantheist:

Seeker:

Taoist:

Unitarian:

Hi,
Thank-you.
LOVE,
...Mary Katherine., .... .

 

[Theway]

I quoted what he said, what he said the god said.
I also quoted the official LDS commentary and summary on it.
Cannot get clearer than that.

Yes you quoted what he said, but your commentary of his quote was completely wrong, which is why I asked whether you even read the quote you posted?
I think your bias is so engrained that it is keeping you from seeing what the rest of us do.

Note what you asserted...

Joseph Smith clearly called anyone outside of his doctrine wrong.
Christian creeds are called an abomination and that the HEARTS of Nicene Christians are far from God.

As I pointed out... At the time of the first vision Joseph Smith did not have a preference to any doctrine.. THAT IS WHY HE WENT TO PRAY IN THE FIRST PLACE, he certainly didn't have any doctrine of his own. Yoir own reference says that he was surprised to learn that.
As I also noted... Your own quote says that it was God who said the doctrines and creeds were an abomination not Joseph Smith.
Again, I pointed out from your own reference and quote, that Joseph Smith did not say that Nicean Christian hearts were far from him, you just simply made that part up.

And once again.... You are free to say and think that it was all an invention of Joseph Smith... However you would then be judging us based on YOUR interpretation of our beliefs, not what we actually believe or by what was actually written.
You are even free to judge us based on your biases and interpretation, however let's not pretend then that you are being fair or you are not holding to a double standard in your judgements.

Like it's been told you... No surprises here. However I have to wonder who it is you are trying to convince?

 

[katerinah1947]

Dear posters.

CF decided to clarify the distinction between a Christian and non-Christian faiths.

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF.
​

This means that any faith group that does not believe in the deity of Christ as described may no longer post in Christian-Only areas.
They are considered non-Christians.

Faith groups that accept the deity of Christ as defined yet disagree with some other points in the Nicene Creed would be defined as non-Nicene Christians.

Others that accept the Nicene Creed as defined at CF's Statement of Faith would be called Nicene Christians.

Why the change?

We believe that the identity and qualifications of Christ to save the humanity is imperative to salvation.

And since salvation is what makes Christian faith Christian, we decided to point out the difference.

The icons for LDS, JW and Unitarians are currently grouped with non-Christian icons.

We do apologize to these groups for the hurt feelings, but the distinction in such areas is necessary.

Questions? Please.

On behalf of the Advisors,
Edial
Ed

Hi,
I meant thank-you for this.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[Tishri1]

Hi TillICollapse,

This may seem naive ... but why is it so important to CF to define whom may be considered "Christian" via such methods?

I appreciate your question. You pretty much answered this question when you said this:

I understand the desire for those of like minds to be able to post in certain parts of the forum, uninterrupted by others who are of dissimilar perspectives. And I can understand why grouping topics together is useful, and creating forums and sub-forums for topics.

You have a good grasp on what we are going through in making this decision

But why not loosen the reigns on some of the more generalized areas ?

We very much want to do that, in fact the change that most might have missed here is the fact that now all Christians (according to the description CF has used) are joined together and none are separated in separate forums anymore because of the few minor teachings that have separate them.

Why all these conditions of accepting creeds and acknowledging perspectives before one can even post in them, if one considers themselves "Christian" by the mere fact they believe in Christ ?

The answer to this is also what you mentioned above:

I understand the desire for those of like minds to be able to post in certain parts of the forum, uninterrupted by others who are of dissimilar perspectives. And I can understand why grouping topics together is useful, and creating forums and sub-forums for topics.

We have only three groups that we cannot pull in because their religious teaching is not close to that of what CF has always interpreted Christianity to be. But with all these others(non-nicene groups), there are only minor controverial beliefs (none having to do with the divine nature of God /Jesus).

Why add a bunch of stuff to it to exclude posting or encourage bashing (like what happens in the LDS threads in the UDD sections) ?

No one wants to encourage bashing, we want to discourage it in fact.

Attempting to define what a "Christian" is has been debated since the Apostles tried to figure out who was greatest amongst themselves up until the present day. So why add to that mess lol?

I know, and it seems to always involve defining the group's correct and others incorrect teaching.
I know and agree with you that every group on the planet believes they are right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Edial]

I know this is 'bad' but I had to chuckle at this. I actually often say it's 666 different denominations/clubs, all claiming their 'denomination/club' is really the 'right', or at least 'more correct' one.

Could you give me the 'bare minimum' required to accomplish that "message" in your opinion?

Not meaning to be adversarial here. Just trying to be observational as to difficulties of the site's recent decision IMO.

Of course.
The Nicene Creed which is CF's statement of faith, unifies almost every Christian.

What is the bare minimum? I posted it in the OP - the deity of Christ.

 

[Edial]

Hi,
I meant thank-you for this.
LOVE,
...Katie., .... .

 

[Architeuthus]

What is the current status of non-Trinitarian Messianics who deny the deity of Christ?

 

[Edial]

I am not interpreting anything. I am restating what was printed.

...
Note what you asserted...
As I pointed out... At the time of the first vision Joseph Smith did not have a preference to any doctrine.. THAT IS WHY HE WENT TO PRAY IN THE FIRST PLACE, he certainly didn't have any doctrine of his own. Yoir own reference says that he was surprised to learn that.

It is the reference from the official LDS sources, not my reference. Your reference.

As I also noted... Your own quote says that it was God who said the doctrines and creeds were an abomination not Joseph Smith.

Of course. Would you say Joseph Smith disagreed with what that god said?
If you say so, then we have no problem.

Again, I pointed out from your own reference and quote, that Joseph Smith did not say that Nicean Christian hearts were far from him, you just simply made that part up.

If I would have made it up I would not have posted the quote.
That god said that ALL of the Nicene church's creeds at the time were an abomination. Their professors were ALL corrupt. And then referred to the verses that plainly referred to ALL these churches' "professors" who were ALL corrupt that the HEARTS of ALL these (clearly professors who are Nicene in theology) are far from God.

Fortunately the hearts of the Nicene leaders are indeed far from a god who Joseph Smith claimed was talking to him.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
========================

Originally Posted by First Vision

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.


19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.
​

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng


LDS summary: What is the First Vision? | Mormon.org

Joseph was told to join none of the churches that existed at that time as the priesthood authority and Church as Jesus Christ had organized it when He was on the earth had been lost over the centuries. Joseph Smith’s First Vision marked the beginning of the Restoration of Jesus Christ’s Church to the earth.​

 

[Edial]

What is the current status of non-Trinitarian Messianics who deny the deity of Christ?

Non-Trinitarian Messianics do believe that Christ is indeed God as defined in the OP.
And the God they believe in is the eternal, uncreated and un-evolved Being who is the creator of all.

This group are referred to in CF as non-Nicene Christians.

 

[Theway]

I suggest you read the thread and see the verse where Christ says that unless they believe who he claims to be they shall perish in their sins.

I believe Christ is who He claims to be... Can I join your Christian Club now.

Also, each major branch of Christianity determined JW and Mormons to be Christian cults, false religions.

I see... So now we are back to "Mob Rule" as I recall that didn't work out too well for your Protestant brothers in history.
Likewise, Christians were called a cult in the beginning... I'd say we were in good company.

We did not make this up.

LOL... Passing blame already?

We confirmed that what the Scriptures and historical Christianity says.

Thanks,
Ed[/QUOTE]No you don't; didn't you just say you don't care what the Early Christian Father had to say?
Also, I think you need to clarify yourself... You only confirm what YOU believe the scriptures say... That's nice, however, it's nothing more than circular logic.

 

[TillICollapse]

Hi TillICollapse,

I appreciate your question. You pretty much answered this question when you said this:
You have a good grasp on what we are going through in making this decision

We very much want to do that, in fact the change that most might have missed here is the fact that now all Christians (according to the description CF has used) are joined together and none are separated in separate forums anymore because of the few minor teachings that have separate them.

Are you referencing what is highlighted in the OP as the "change" ? Is that the new definition of "Orthodox" according to CF then ? Maybe I'm missing where the changes highlighted in the OP also equate to a new definition of Orthodox or some such :/

The answer to this is also what you mentioned above: We have only three groups that we cannot pull in because their religious teaching is not close to that of what CF has always interpreted Christianity to be. But with all these others(non-nicene groups), there are only minor controverial beliefs (none having to do with the divine nature of God /Jesus). No one wants to encourage bashing, we want to discourage it in fact. I know, and it seems to always involve defining the group's correct and others incorrect teaching.
I know and agree with you that every group on the planet believes they are right and everyone else is wrong.

But that limits these groups to more specific areas, right ? For example ... I didn't follow every thread, but a few days ago there was an LDS individual posting on the Beatitudes and many of those threads were shut down. I couldn't figure out why, although others say that they were Orthodox threads in an Unorthodox section. However, an LDS can't post an Orthodox thread in an Unorthdox section ... right lol ? They are limited to posting in Exploring Christianity or something, right ? So where could an LDS openly discuss things with both LDS and those who don't consider them Christian, while still having input on such theological topics as the Beatitudes ? Hopefully you get what I'm asking.

 

[katerinah1947]

I believe Christ is who He claims to be... Can I join your Christian Club now.

I see... So now we are back to "Mob Rule" as I recall that didn't work out too well for your Protestant brothers in history.
Likewise, Christians were called a cult in the beginning... I'd say we were in good company.
LOL... Passing blame already?



Thanks,
Ed

No you don't; didn't you just say you don't care what the Early Christian Father had to say?
Also, I think you need to clarify yourself... You only confirm what YOU believe the scriptures say... That's nice, however, it's nothing more than circular logic.[/QUOTE]

Hi,
And with this kind of abusive or semi-abusive speech you want to join the Nicene types who have prohibitions against not being this way.
Again. I thank the staff.
...Kate., .... .

 

[skylark1]

From the OP:

Dear posters.

CF decided to clarify the distinction between a Christian and non-Christian faiths.

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God, fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF.
​

Of course.
The Nicene Creed which is CF's statement of faith, unifies almost every Christian.

What is the bare minimum? I posted it in the OP - the deity of Christ.

According to the Official LDS website, they believe this about Christ:

The Book of Mormon establishes clearly that “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself to all nations” (Book of Mormon title page; 2 Nephi 26:12).

What Mormons Believe About Jesus Christ​