Circumcision

[Jan001]

That is what I provided the definitions of those words, as rendered in the manuscripts, in English.

The message remains the same.

YHWH calls his people to repentance, to obedience to his direction.

The Prophets repeated that message.

The greatest of Prophets, John the Baptist, repeated that message.

He prepared the way for Messiah, who repeated the same message.

If we are to follow Messiah; we will follow his example of obedience to YHWH's instruction.

(CLV) Mt 19:16
And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?"

(CLV) Mt 19:17
Yet He said to him, "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts."

Concerning Circumcision:

We do know that Paul and the early church leaders taught all converts to Christianity, both Jewish and Gentile, the following:

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.

So then, why did Paul circumcise the Greek man named Timothy? I believe it was because Paul wanted to take Timothy with him into the Jewish Synagogues and that would be forbidden to do unless Timothy was circumcised according to Jewish law. Timothy had a Jewish mother but he was uncircumcised due to his father being a Greek. If a person's mother was a Jew, he/she was a Jew too according to Judaism. Jews, Samaritans, and Greeks were forbidden to fraternize together so even though Timothy was a Jew because of his mother, he still had to be circumcised in order to accompany Paul into the Synagogues.

Acts 16:1-3 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.

Genesis 43:32 So they set him a place by himself, and them by themselves, and the Egyptians who ate with him by themselves; because the Egyptians could not eat food with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.

John 4:9
Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

Greek converts to Christianity were not circumcised.

Galatians 2:3
Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

There can be no Old Covenant in force without the circumcision requirement.

Genesis 17:13-14 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.


So then, what does the following Scripture actually mean?

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

We can discuss this topic on a new thread if anyone is interested in discussing this Scripture verse.

 

[HARK!]

Concerning Circumcision:

We do know that Paul and the early church leaders taught all converts to Christianity, both Jewish and Gentile, the following:

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.

So then, why did Paul circumcise the Greek man named Timothy? I believe it was because Paul wanted to take Timothy with him into the Jewish Synagogues and that would be forbidden to do unless Timothy was circumcised according to Jewish law. Timothy had a Jewish mother but he was uncircumcised due to his father being a Greek. If a person's mother was a Jew, he/she was a Jew too according to Judaism. Jews, Samaritans, and Greeks were forbidden to fraternize together so even though Timothy was a Jew because of his mother, he still had to be circumcised in order to accompany Paul into the Synagogues.

Acts 16:1-3 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek.

Genesis 43:32 So they set him a place by himself, and them by themselves, and the Egyptians who ate with him by themselves; because the Egyptians could not eat food with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.

John 4:9
Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

Greek converts to Christianity were not circumcised.

Galatians 2:3
Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

There can be no Old Covenant in force without the circumcision requirement.

Genesis 17:13-14 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.


So then, what does the following Scripture actually mean?

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

We can discuss this topic on a new thread if anyone is interested in discussing this Scripture verse.

As scripture tells us, Paul's writings are not easy to understand.

(CLV) 2Pt 3:15
And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.


If Peter, who took the full course from Messiah, who was in the inner circle of those who walked with Messiah, who saw things that the other Apostles who walked with Messiah didn't get to see, who was a contemporary of Paul in the culture, who spoke the same language as Paul, who understood the subtle nuances of the common idioms of the day, says that Paul is difficult to understand; then you can be sure, that 2000 years removed, in a different culture, through two translations, through evolving languages, that Paul is difficult to understand!


Paul Proved to James, brother of Messiah, appointed bishop of the church by Messiah himself, that he was not teaching apostasy, like some of his false accusers had inferred.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:22
What is it, then? Undoubtedly a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come.

(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear on their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

 

[Guojing]

As scripture tells us, Paul's writings are not easy to understand.

(CLV) 2Pt 3:15
And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.


If Peter, who took the full course from Messiah, who was in the inner circle of those who walked with Messiah, who saw things that the other Apostles who walked with Messiah didn't get to see, who was a contemporary of Paul in the culture, who spoke the same language as Paul, who understood the subtle nuances of the common idioms of the day, says that Paul is difficult to understand; then you can be sure, that 2000 years removed, in a different culture, through two translations, through evolving languages, that Paul is difficult to understand!


Paul Proved to James, brother of Messiah, appointed bishop of the church by Messiah himself, that he was not teaching apostasy, like some of his false accusers had inferred.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:22
What is it, then? Undoubtedly a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come.

(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear on their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

So physical circumcision is also required for us now?

 

[HARK!]

So physical circumcision is also required for us now?

Which side of the Jerusalem Council do you side with?

 

[Studyman]

As scripture tells us, Paul's writings are not easy to understand.

(CLV) 2Pt 3:15
And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.


If Peter, who took the full course from Messiah, who was in the inner circle of those who walked with Messiah, who saw things that the other Apostles who walked with Messiah didn't get to see, who was a contemporary of Paul in the culture, who spoke the same language as Paul, who understood the subtle nuances of the common idioms of the day, says that Paul is difficult to understand; then you can be sure, that 2000 years removed, in a different culture, through two translations, through evolving languages, that Paul is difficult to understand!


Paul Proved to James, brother of Messiah, appointed bishop of the church by Messiah himself, that he was not teaching apostasy, like some of his false accusers had inferred.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:22
What is it, then? Undoubtedly a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come.

(CLV) Ac 21:23
This, then, which we are saying to you, do. With us are four men having a vow on them.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear on their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

Paul makes it clear, in my view, to all who would accuse him of teaching against the Law and Prophets, both then and now. I find no such teaching, when I study myself. But I am surrounded by "many" who come in Christ's Name, who accuse Paul of teaching against Moses. I will let Paul speak for his own defense, and I will believe him.

Acts 24: (CLV)10 Besides, Paul, the governor nodding to him to speak, answered, "Being versed in the fact that for many years you are a judge in this nation, cheerfully am I defending that which concerns myself,

11 at your being able to recognize that it is not more than twelve days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem.

12 And they neither found me in the sanctuary arguing with anyone, or making a concourse of the throng, nor in the synagogues, nor at the city,

13 nor can they present evidence to you for that concerning which they are now accusing me.

14 Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust."

Great topic Hark,

 

[Guojing]

Which side of the Jerusalem Council do you side with?

The side that says no.

 

[Studyman]

A Hebrew

In Hebrew, “crossing over” means exactly that – to be a Hebrew. The words cross, pass and a true Hebrew are derived from the same root: ABR.

Abraham was a Hebrew because he crossed over from a culture of idol worshipers into monotheism, from Ur of the Chaldeans into a promised land. The children of Israel are called Hebrews (see for example Gen 43:32; Ex. 2:6, 13; and others)



Crossing over – A Hebrew » Kehila News Israel.

And the Messiah also told those religious men who Transgressed God's Commandments by their own religious traditions in His Time;

John 8: 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

What were the "Works" of Abraham? Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So then, anyone who would "cross over", regardless of DNA, are Abraham's Children and Heirs to the Promise. As the Law also promotes.

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

As Isaiah, inspired by the Spirit of Christ also teaches.

IS. 56: (CLV) 6 And the sons of the foreigner obligated to Yahweh to minister to Him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to become His servants, and everyone keeping from violating My sabbath, and holding fast My covenant, 7 I bring them also to My holy mountain, and I make them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascent approaches and their sacrifices shall ascend for acceptance on My altar, for My house a house of prayer shall be called, for all the peoples,

 

[HARK!]

The side that says no.

What side said no? I've read the OP multiple times; and I see no mention of that word. Perhaps you can point it out for me.

 

[Guojing]

What side said no? I've read the OP multiple times; and I see no mention of that word. Perhaps you can point it out for me.

Acts 15, James said gentiles don't have to follow

 

[Studyman]

Acts 15, James said gentiles don't have to follow

No, James said Gentiles don't have to adhere to the religious sect of the Pharisees, who Jesus Himself said "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

A Yoke that neither their fathers, nor the Disciples could bear, as their traditions lead to the death of all who followed and/or adhered to them, as the Jesus "of the Bible" also tells us.

Matt. 23: 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Instead, the Apostles led the Gentiles away from the mainstream religion of that time, towards the Law of Moses. As the Scriptutres teach.

Acts 15: 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned "to God":

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues "every sabbath day".

It is also prudent, in my view, to point out that the Christ of the Bible directed this very same instruction to the multitudes and His Disciples, before HE was murdered.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, "and do not".

We have the Oracles of God in our own homes now, therefore "we" sit on Moses Seat when we read the Torah. Shall we not follow the instructions of our Redeemer?

 

[Yahudim]

No, James said Gentiles don't have to adhere to the religious sect of the Pharisees, who Jesus Himself said "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

A Yoke that neither their fathers, nor the Disciples could bear, as their traditions lead to the death of all who followed and/or adhered to them, as the Jesus "of the Bible" also tells us.

Matt. 23: 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Instead, the Apostles led the Gentiles away from the mainstream religion of that time, towards the Law of Moses. As the Scriptutres teach.

Acts 15: 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned "to God":

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues "every sabbath day".

It is also prudent, in my view, to point out that the Christ of the Bible directed this very same instruction to the multitudes and His Disciples, before HE was murdered.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, "and do not".

We have the Oracles of God in our own homes now, therefore "we" sit on Moses Seat when we read the Torah. Shall we not follow the instructions of our Redeemer?

Your response here can be linked all the way back to the garden. Our Master called the religious leaders of Judea a generation of vipers because they would not just ignore the Torah of the Father and the admonitions of the prophets, they admitted they were descendants of those that murdered the prophets.

 

[Studyman]

Your response here can be linked all the way back to the garden. Our Master called the religious leaders of Judea a generation of vipers because they would not just ignore the Torah of the Father and the admonitions of the prophets, they admitted they were descendants of those that murdered the prophets.

Absolutely. It was the serpent who convinced Eve that God was lying to her. It is still promoting the exact same Philosophy through "many" who are disguised as Apostles of Christ, even to this day. A hard pill to swallow for many, as it was 30 years ago for me. I hope that through these kinds of discussions, maybe a person might be prompted to consider the warnings, and "take a leap of faith".

There are "many" troubling doctrines promoted by this world's religions "Who come in Christ's Name". One of the more egregious ones, in my view, is the widespread teaching that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God. This leaven, which infects the entire body of those who consume it, leads to so many other false teachings. Like the Apostles taught against the Torah, which they didn't. Or that Yeshua came to abolish the Torah, which HE didn't. Or that God's instruction in righteousness was a "Yoke of Bondage" or "Beggarly Elements" of this world, which they are not.

Thank you for your spot-on reply.

I wish you God's speed on this Holy of Days.

 

[Yahudim]

Absolutely. It was the serpent who convinced Eve that God was lying to her. It is still promoting the exact same Philosophy through "many" who are disguised as Apostles of Christ, even to this day. A hard pill to swallow for many, as it was 30 years ago for me. I hope that through these kinds of discussions, maybe a person might be prompted to consider the warnings, and "take a leap of faith".

There are "many" troubling doctrines promoted by this world's religions "Who come in Christ's Name". One of the more egregious ones, in my view, is the widespread teaching that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn Salvation" by obeying God. This leaven, which infects the entire body of those who consume it, leads to so many other false teachings. Like the Apostles taught against the Torah, which they didn't. Or that Yeshua came to abolish the Torah, which HE didn't. Or that God's instruction in righteousness was a "Yoke of Bondage" or "Beggarly Elements" of this world, which they are not.

Thank you for your spot-on reply.

I wish you God's speed on this Holy of Days.

Shabbat Shalom chaver!
Shalomim!

 

[Guojing]

No, James said Gentiles don't have to adhere to the religious sect of the Pharisees, who Jesus Himself said "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

A Yoke that neither their fathers, nor the Disciples could bear, as their traditions lead to the death of all who followed and/or adhered to them, as the Jesus "of the Bible" also tells us.

Matt. 23: 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Instead, the Apostles led the Gentiles away from the mainstream religion of that time, towards the Law of Moses. As the Scriptutres teach.

Acts 15: 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned "to God":

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues "every sabbath day".

It is also prudent, in my view, to point out that the Christ of the Bible directed this very same instruction to the multitudes and His Disciples, before HE was murdered.

Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, "and do not".

We have the Oracles of God in our own homes now, therefore "we" sit on Moses Seat when we read the Torah. Shall we not follow the instructions of our Redeemer?

I was referring to physical circumcision.

Are you also implying its also required today?

 

[Guojing]

What side said no? I've read the OP multiple times; and I see no mention of that word. Perhaps you can point it out for me.

I have answered your question, could you answer mine?

 

[Studyman]

I was referring to physical circumcision.

Are you also implying its also required today?

I was pointing out that Acts 15 doesn’t make void the Torah, nor does it teach against Gods instruction found in the Torah.

It only teaches that the Apostles kept the Gentiles away from the Pharisees religious Philosophy and turned them towards the Torah.

This is the truth of Acts 15.

 

[Guojing]

I was pointing out that Acts 15 doesn’t make void the Torah, nor does it teach against Gods instruction found in the Torah.

It only teaches that the Apostles kept the Gentiles away from the Pharisees religious Philosophy and turned them towards the Torah.

This is the truth of Acts 15.

So basically, you agree that physical circumcision was not done away for gentiles in Acts 15?

A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

 

[Studyman]

So basically, you agree that physical circumcision was not done away for gentiles in Acts 15?

A yes or no answer would be appreciated.

The Torah was not made void by Acts 15, as I clearly demonstrated. Not God’s Judgments nor His teaching regarding any of His instruction, nor any of His Laws.

That is simply Biblical fact.

 

[HARK!]

I have answered your question, could you answer mine?

My answer would be dependent on which side of the debate of the Jerusalem Council that you stand on.

There are only two sides to this debate.

"No" was not mentioned in that debate.

You can't come in 2000 years ex post facto, and add a third side to the debate.

 

[Guojing]

The Torah was not made void by Acts 15, as I clearly demonstrated. Not God’s Judgments nor His teaching regarding any of His instruction, nor any of His Laws.

That is simply Biblical fact.

When you keep repeating Torah, you include physical circumcision into the Torah correct?