Church run like a business??

[ValleyGal]

No we are disciples not traders and the gospel is shared it cannot ever be bought or sold.

Right Now is actually trying to share the Gospel and deepen disciple's knowledge of Scriptures. You are fortunate that your church offered a free subscription to it.

 

[Goodbook]

Our library has NEVER billed anyone. If any books are bought, (most are donated) the church gets to share and keep the copies. But this DIGITAL library is going to bill the church every month. And you don't even own or keep the content.
You don't even get to choose whats in the library. They will send you a whole lot of JUNK emails. And most all of the content is a lot of purpose-drivel. christian 'psychology', false teachings, other peoples opinions of the bible. KIDS cartoons.

Christian children are not kids. If this outfit reckons Jesus lambs are kids then its obvious its not for believers at all but for people who want to think themselves christian and watch tv, without having to bother to study the bible.

anyway, just super annoyed that someone who should know better wants to justify spending church budget on this. Its going to cost $600 a year. for something nobody actually needs. I don't have children asking me 'I need to watch a video'. None of the dvds this church pastor donated like vege tales, have even been borrowed.

No, the children are asking me to read them stories from the bible. The children are asking for more copies of the Bible and this pastor goes and tells me we have too many and to get rid of them. He tells the Gideons he doesn't want bibles. Which are offered FREE. He uses the church name to spam everyone in the fellowship book.

Unbelievable.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

What do you do if it seems like your church is being run like a business, does that mean the wolves have got in and you need to run?

I was given this 'gift' by a church I attend of a online video library but its asking me if I am part of the staff of this organization or a CEO etc.Do churches have CEOs. I thought they had ministers, teachers, evangelists and prophets, not CEOs, admins, and employees.

Also it asked me what my age, marital status and gender was. I don't know if later I have to pay for this 'gift' or someones just spent thousands of dollars on these resources so we can run our church like a business. Is this a red flag? It didn't say anything about faith or even if it had any Bibles :-(

My friend, I feel your pain and frustration. I'm often angered by the ways I see churches spending money. Unfortunately, God has shown and told me of this major problem in North American "Christianity". Many, many 'churches' are more about the power of money then the Power of God. God will "refine" this impurity from His Church. But if I'm honest, I can be the same way. God have mercy on us!

I too like to simply meet in people's homes. In fact, the church I attend now has about 300 people and no building. We rent a community center and have 2 services on Sunday, meet in "missional communities" (house churches) on Wednesdays, and they have 3-5 person Discipleship groups at 6am Fridays It's the best of ALL kinds!! We do weekly outreaches, and it's grown from 5 to ~300 in <2 years AND THEY PREACH THE WORD. I've been a Christian 21 years and I'm learning more now than ever.

It's rare to find a church nowadays that has "Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Administrators, Deacons/Elders" .... the Bible has a lot to say about the Order of Church.

But many 'churches' are structured more like popular business models as opposed to the structure given by God that we see in the Bible. This can be a sign that the leadership is adhering to the human wisdom of modern business models and is either substituting the Holy Spirit's leading or simply doesn't know enough of the Bible to setup a Biblical leadership structure. Especially if it's a larger church. But that may not be the case. For example, that may actually have a good structure, but simply be calling them by modern, informal terms. This is all something you should investigate.

Another aspect to consider is that can also mean the church is simply trying to conform to local, state, and federal laws in attempts to be obedient to God AND Government, and to be a good stewards of monies donated.

Just simply using a software that mentions the term "CEO's" does not mean YOUR CHURCH bad. They may just using a product made by Christians who wanted to include ALL POSSIBLE "church structures". But it sounds like there are numerous causes for concern.

So I'd do these 2 things:

#1 MAKE SURE you're not being hypocritical. "Remove the LOG from your eye.... " before your try to remove the "splinter" from theirs. Do not judge a church on how it spends it's money, until you're ALREADY PERSONALLY living out the Biblical and Godly example of whole-life worship stewardship... God will hold you to your own standard, so be careful, especially with older Christian men in leadership positions. And know that Jesus ACTIVELY chastises His Church. I've seen crooks and adulteresses in the pulpit exposed TIME and TIME again. Jesus knows how to tend to His own flock.

#2 Ask the leadership questions about church finances. Every well-led church I've joined, shows exactly how much they bring in every week, where it goes, who gets paid how much, etc...... Any church (or Christian in generally, really) should be open and willing to share their finances with other Christians for accountability before God, to guard ourselves from Idolatry.


In the end, BECOME the example portrayed in the Bible. Then use the Scriptures to "admonish" the people in the church to follow more closely the Bible's instructions on church finances and leadership, and then finally, if you cannot trust them with finances, don't trust them with your life. Ask God to put you in a Church where you can participate in their Kingdom work, finances, leadership, the whole of it all.

 

[Goodbook]

thanks well..not sure what to think now. He said he didn't like my tone (in my email) but conceded that this thing he subscribed to was very american and possibly unsuitable for some people and was quick to say it was only a trial. However when I pointed out the way the website twisted scripture he leapt to its defence.

I don't know if he got conned into subscribing to it...we all make mistakes, but if I was in his position I wouldn't have done what he did.

The weird thing is, this website is very evangelical about spreading its OWN ideas to churches but actually nothing about the gospel.

And the youth pastor I have not really seen him do any kind of outreach of any kind, nobody has ever emailed me offering this 'gift' before, the church has never even given EVERYONE anything before. I only remember one year the pastor writing a letter and posting it personally to me saying he was praying for me, I was touched until I mentioned it to his wife, and she just said oh he did that to everyone.

So I kinda feel, well, I'm not even that special. :-(

i'm trying to think of instances where I've done the same thing, but I'm very careful if theres any kind of christian organisation that could prey on people's generosity. Like if a parachurch ministry is always asking for donations and helpers and we can't really help. But see this organisation is designed for churches in america. Maybe they are like that and use 'business talk' but We are not an american church, its pretty obvious. He would be sending money overseas and it wouldn't even be benefiting the believers here. its not like the american churches are hard up anyway.

I've already told him over and over both us librarians want to prioritize have nz content in our library this will benefit believers here, living here. Its like he's just totally ignored us and brought in this foreign stuff thats totally irrelevant.

 

[Goodbook]

also a sad thing is the christian bookstores here don't even want to sell local books, they will order from american big name publishers and refuse nz authors, just because they don't have the print runs or buying power the americans do. So we end up with a whole lot of american stuff on bookshelves and sad to say much of it is fluff!
So to have church libraries have more of this stuff is just insane. its not going to edify anyone. Nzers cant relate to american pastors living in mcmansions and presiding over megachurches, who fly from one conference to the next, or say if its a book on how to care for elderly parents, no use having a list of american contact numbers and ministries that we cant even contact!

 

[Goodbook]

just finding it hypocritical they spending all this on this digital online thing when the leaders have been so stingy everywhere else. eg. we can't even have a seat to sit on outside. even if one is offered, and everyone else wants one, they don't want it.

I've used a digital platform to catalogue books and its completely free of charge. I used my own money to buy brand new books, decided I wouldn't report this to the treasurer who turns out to be the pastor anyway, because found out if I buy new books and ask for reimbursement - which we are allowed to do -he will kick up such a fuss. I've just decided to give/donate without having this silly thing where the church pays you back for something thats going to be a gift.

for this digital thing he's not even using his own money though he's using whats part of some obscure church budget. it seems he can conjure church budgets out of thin air cos someone gifted a lot of money to the church and now he's in control of doling it out, which is never meant to happen cos the church treasurer is meant to do that. Its not a pastors job, a pastor is meant to look after the flock not be caught up with invoices and finances and bills. What they did was fire or let go of whoever was doing it before, and take over everything. They also seemed to have got outside business consultants. Not church consultants (if there's such a thing) but BUSINESS consultants.

You don't ask secular people how to manage a church. You ask God!

 

[AlexDTX]

Honestly I feel like that donkey.

I would rather be an ass for Christ than blindly following Balaam. Kudos to you, Goodbook, for this post. I am in full agreement with you. I have nothing to do with organized religion, although I recognized the merits for new believers.

The way of God is nothing like the way of the world. Consider John the Baptist. The world would have a marketing machine in the heart of the Temple. Not John. He goes into the wilderness far away from the crowds and proclaims the coming of the Messiah to the rocks and animals. How on Earth did those crowds find out about him and what moved them to come out to the wilderness to hear him? The answer, of course, is that John relied wholly on God, not human systems.

I have heard men in the pulpit preach on Jesus throwing the money changers out of the temple, yet, ironically they don't see their own business has a book store, tapes and CDs of messages, trinkets and souvenirs, and anything else they can sell to make money.

Christian bookstores are just as loathsome to me. The garbage they sell does little to help believers to walk with God in truth. I know they may have a few things, but most of that stuff is useless decorative trash.

 

[Elliewaves]

Just don't go to church there anymore since you hate this man so much. If the church hasn't helped you become more like Christ (and you desire that); then leave and find a better fit. You seem to really hate him and there's something really wrong with that in a church; so find one that doesn't rub you the wrong way, doesn't encourage you to hate or be petty , and spurs you onward in your Christian walk.

 

[Goodbook]

I have come to the conclusion that some of christianity is really just disguised as a religious network marketing pyramid scheme. Some people have bought into the scam.
This one is peddling worthless videos.

You too can be a religious scammer instead of a discple and twist scripture for profit! Sign up your church! Ugh.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Our library has NEVER billed anyone. If any books are bought, (most are donated) the church gets to share and keep the copies. But this DIGITAL library is going to bill the church every month. And you don't even own or keep the content.
You don't even get to choose whats in the library. They will send you a whole lot of JUNK emails. And most all of the content is a lot of purpose-drivel. christian 'psychology', false teachings, other peoples opinions of the bible. KIDS cartoons.

Christian children are not kids. If this outfit reckons Jesus lambs are kids then its obvious its not for believers at all but for people who want to think themselves christian and watch tv, without having to bother to study the bible.

anyway, just super annoyed that someone who should know better wants to justify spending church budget on this. Its going to cost $600 a year. for something nobody actually needs. I don't have children asking me 'I need to watch a video'. None of the dvds this church pastor donated like vege tales, have even been borrowed.

No, the children are asking me to read them stories from the bible. The children are asking for more copies of the Bible and this pastor goes and tells me we have too many and to get rid of them. He tells the Gideons he doesn't want bibles. Which are offered FREE. He uses the church name to spam everyone in the fellowship book.

Unbelievable.

Why don't you talk to your pastor and ask him if you can have 2 weeks to look into the company. I would be worried about the "Purpose Driven ..." materials myself or the psychology stuff.

There should be some ticked off people writing about this company if its shady or even talking about how much the resources were used at their church. Maybe some information gathering needs to be done.

 

[AlexDTX]

Just don't go to church there anymore since you hate this man so much. If the church hasn't helped you become more like Christ (and you desire that); then leave and find a better fit. You seem to really hate him and there's something really wrong with that in a church; so find one that doesn't rub you the wrong way, doesn't encourage you to hate or be petty , and spurs you onward in your Christian walk.

Took me a moment to remember who the woman in the GIF was - she is the actress in Mad Men.

 

[DennisTate]

and then just as I signed up it was asking me 'I am grateful to the church for this media because...' and then it had a box in which I had to type something, when I hadn't even viewed anything yet.

Interesting!

On the plus side a church that has a CEO and is ran like a business might just
consider a theory like this one more seriously?

North American churches should each have their own currency!

 

[Goodbook]

Dont give them ideas dennis, they already spending money as if they are playing Monopoly.

It doesnt mean a thing to church businessmen, as long as they the one that bankrupts everyone else and wins the game.

 

[BeachBabe87]

You may want to read the book Pagan Christianity

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's rare to find a church nowadays that has "Prophets, Pastors, Teachers, Administrators, Deacons/Elders" .... the Bible has a lot to say about the Order of Church.

Isn't Pastor/Teacher one office? Biblically speaking.

 

[faroukfarouk]

You may want to read the book Pagan Christianity

Interesting comment; in the days of Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees, society was one big business and religious set up, each corrupting the other.

 

[Goodbook]

You may want to read the book Pagan Christianity

Have read that book. Has some good points, again its really talking about churches in america, but that has kind of filtered down to other countries.

American style christianity is so different from english. One of the church members said it was wacky, im afriad i have to agree that much of it is so off base its like theyve made some other beast of church. She grew up anglican though. Her husband is welsh. Most of our congregation would have british ancestry not american. So not really seeing why our church would embrace such a rebel culture.

Apparently the americans split from the brits over religious differences, not just political. That is why there are all these different american churches, and no COA. (Church of america) Whereas there is one COE (church of england) even though that too seems to have lost its way.

Friend of mine goes to an anglican church, she asked me to help with her library but some of the books in heres seemed to be all about weird stuff too, like meditation and labyrinths. Lol.