Church run like a business??

[ToBeLoved]

I get turned off majorly when a church is run like a business. Of course a church has bills to pay and that of course should be supported, but overly overt business references to me is bad for churches. Whenever we can take the spiritual things of God and put them in a basket with business which is primarily there to earn money or to succeed financially I think spiritual things and money are a conflict of interest, IMHO.

I would write your pastor a letter or whomever. Think of it as part of your time for God and express your opinion. Also write to be removed from their mailing list. I believe they must do it if they receive a request so just make sure you have a copy of the email or a zerox copy of the letter that you are sending.

But also know that people rarely appreciate criticism in any form, so doing so will make you unpopular with anyone you talk to. You must make up your mind before hand what God is directing you to do and then follow through with it.

I understand what you are going through.

 

[aiki]

cant people just meet in each others homes, I'm really tired of this whole church 'business' thing where they constantly go on about finances. I don't care if we meet in a field even.

I agree. Check this out:

Tithing for Toilet Paper: Doing God's Business the World's Way. | Christian Forums

Selah.

 

[Saucy]

For a church to keep its doors open, it HAS to be run like a business. That doesn't mean they aren't doing Godly work, but they must maintain their budget, pay rent, pay workers, buy supplies, maintain a budget, etc, just like every other church out there. If that bothers you, then perhaps find a church that does meet in a field. Start your own old fashioned tent revival or something.

It's normal for a church to invest in something they feel will help its congregation grow and become closer to the Lord. It's also why there are board and budget meetings to hash out the details. When it comes to receiving donations, there are rules and the church has to be careful.

 

[fide]

What do you do if it seems like your church is being run like a business, does that mean the wolves have got in and you need to run?

I was given this 'gift' by a church I attend of a online video library but its asking me if I am part of the staff of this organization or a CEO etc.Do churches have CEOs. I thought they had ministers, teachers, evangelists and prophets, not CEOs, admins, and employees.

Also it asked me what my age, marital status and gender was. I don't know if later I have to pay for this 'gift' or someones just spent thousands of dollars on these resources so we can run our church like a business. Is this a red flag? It didn't say anything about faith or even if it had any Bibles :-(

It seems fitting to include this blog post that I wrote 2 years ago:

My Parish is a Business?​

I opened the newspaper today to find the troubling news: my local Catholic church was selected by the “Regional Chamber of Commerce” as…..(trumpet introduction)…..”BUSINESS OF THE WEEK”! My parish is a business? When did this happen? How did this happen? I looked up “business” in Webster’s Dictionary – maybe the word has been redefined somehow:

Business – the activity of making, buying, or selling goods or providing services in exchange for money.​

This is worse than I thought. “Business” did not get redefined. God help us all, if “church” got redefined! I remember that Jesus got very upset when He discovered that the Holy Temple had become a “place of merchandise” – a place of buying and selling – a place of money-changers and money-makers. “My Father’s House shall be called a house of prayer!” He cried out for the whole world to hear: church is not a business.

Church is not a business; the activity of a church is not “making, buying, or selling goods or providing services in exchange for money.” Church ministers – lay or clergy – are not employees with a job; they are in service to God and His people. And the services they provide are not “in exchange for money” – they are owed, they are the debts of love owed because He first loved us, and gave Himself for us.

No, I do not know how our parish ever got into a “chamber of commerce.” What “commerce” is a church to be occupied with, except the supernatural commerce of the economy of grace? God help us.

 

[AlexDTX]

What do you do if it seems like your church is being run like a business, does that mean the wolves have got in and you need to run?

I was given this 'gift' by a church I attend of a online video library but its asking me if I am part of the staff of this organization or a CEO etc.Do churches have CEOs. I thought they had ministers, teachers, evangelists and prophets, not CEOs, admins, and employees.

Also it asked me what my age, marital status and gender was. I don't know if later I have to pay for this 'gift' or someones just spent thousands of dollars on these resources so we can run our church like a business. Is this a red flag? It didn't say anything about faith or even if it had any Bibles :-(

There is the Church and then there is church. The Church are all the saints; the church is the business. Does the Church need the church? Yes and no. Organized religion (which always has been a business) has been the repository of church history, traditions, and the place for new believers to get started. However, after awhile, new believers become disciples and need to minister in the world. To remain a pew sitter for the rest of your life is to remain in school without ever graduating.

The church as a business is the work of man. The Church is the work of Jesus Christ. God gave dominion to mankind. In that authority is the freedom to govern and conduct ourselves as we wish. God works with our choices. The Gospel is the free gift of life from God to mankind. The power to make a living off the Gospel is accepted in Scriptures, and is especially argued by Paul. Ironically, Paul rejected that right and earned his living by a craft (tent making or talit - prayer shawls - making) so as not to give Satan opportunity to slander the Gospel. It is disgraceful to see so many ministers that are blatantly greedy defending their greed according to Paul's writings, while shearing the flock.

It is also misleading to believe that one sheep can call himself a shepherd over the flock of God. There is only one Shepherd, Jesus Christ. A shepherd is a different species (human) over sheep. Likewise, there is only one shepherd who is a different species (God/Man, the Messiah) who can be a shepherd over the human flock.

Recognize that they are brethren who you wish to co-labor with as they labor in the Lord. Give to those who live the life of Christ and not preach only.

 

[Danni B22]

What do you do if it seems like your church is being run like a business, does that mean the wolves have got in and you need to run?

I was given this 'gift' by a church I attend of a online video library but its asking me if I am part of the staff of this organization or a CEO etc.Do churches have CEOs. I thought they had ministers, teachers, evangelists and prophets, not CEOs, admins, and employees.

Also it asked me what my age, marital status and gender was. I don't know if later I have to pay for this 'gift' or someones just spent thousands of dollars on these resources so we can run our church like a business. Is this a red flag? It didn't say anything about faith or even if it had any Bibles :-(

Depending on where you live.... Churches have a variety of organizational designs. Basically they are "not-for-profit" organizations operating with charitable status. The "red tape" governmentally in order to maintain their charitable status varies per state, region, country, county, etc.). Because of charitable status, churches will follow certain organizational policies and have their own bi-laws and constitutions set up when they "incorporate" and apply for the charitable status. All this info is provided to the government. This is for the sake of audits and such. Charitable status also allows the public to have access to the way funds are distributed and such. For example, the salary of the head pastor, the distribution of alms to the community, and so on. A well run church will have a revenue plan to support their goals, vision, and mission, without the reliance on tithes and offerings to continue in operation without pressuring congregants and members to keep the church open. A church may run as an independent church, or be submitted to a denomination (in order to own property and assets that are held by the denomination rather than the individual pastor, etc.). Some churches, for the sake of carrying out the mission/vision of a church will operate as a non-profit organization, with pastors in roles as department directors (i.e. family department, children's department, administrative, student ministries, oversees missions, ministry training schools, etc.). Its more or less terminology. Mega churches or large churches (2000+ members) will operate more smoothly, and experience less corruption (i.e. financial, political, ethical) when they take on a strategic financial/economical operation. The salvation army is an excellent example of a well-structured church organization that runs like a business. And because of this they are able to do incredible things in their communities and offer professional quality services in their communities FOR FREE. They provide FREE services WITHOUT BIAS to anyone in their community, that most of us would dream to have available to us in our local churches. There can be pros or cons to how any church operates. Ultimately, it depends on the visionary and their core team. I spent a significant amount of years in executive administration in church ministry and non-profit sectors and, in my experience, the churches that tend to function "questionably" are usually the ones that do not operate with a strategic plan, board or directors, and committees that keep the organizational model people focused rather than "giving/tithing" focused. This (my response) is very generalized info. It is a lot more complicated than this, but hopefully this helps. Keep in mind, that churches handle a lot of funds, because many, if not most, that operate independently, are running of tithes, offerings, and donations provided by their own members.... so, if you work hard for your money, you probably want to know that your church has you in mind when they are operating, rather than their own salaries as the forefront. In this case, it is not such a bad thing to know your church leadership is business-minded and are capable of making good economical decisions about multi-million dollar mortgages and how they maintain their budgets, employee salaries, and so on.

 

[fide]

........

It is also misleading to believe that one sheep can call himself a shepherd over the flock of God. There is only one Shepherd, Jesus Christ. A shepherd is a different species (human) over sheep. Likewise, there is only one shepherd who is a different species (God/Man, the Messiah) who can be a shepherd over the human flock.

.......

Well, many hear Jesus commissioning Peter to exactly that: to be shepherd of the Lord's sheep:

Berean Study Bible
Jesus asked a second time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?" "Yes, Lord," he answered, "You know I love You." Jesus told him, "Shepherd My sheep."

Berean Literal Bible
He says to him again a second time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?" He says to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I dearly love You." He says to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

New American Standard 1977
He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
A second time He asked him, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?"" Yes, Lord," he said to Him, "You know that I love You." "Shepherd My sheep," He told him.

NET Bible
Jesus said a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He replied, "Yes, Lord, you know I love you." Jesus told him, "Shepherd my sheep."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He said to him again a second time, “Shimeon Bar Yonah, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, my Lord. You know that I love you.” Yeshua said to him, “Shepherd my sheep for me.”

New American Standard Bible
He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.”

Darby Bible Translation
He says to him again a second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He says to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I am attached to thee. He says to him, Shepherd my sheep.

Weymouth New Testament
Again a second time He asked him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" "Yes, Master," he said, "you know that you are dear to me." "Then be a shepherd to my sheep," He said.

 

[aiki]

For a church to keep its doors open, it HAS to be run like a business. That doesn't mean they aren't doing Godly work, but they must maintain their budget, pay rent, pay workers, buy supplies, maintain a budget, etc, just like every other church out there. If that bothers you, then perhaps find a church that does meet in a field. Start your own old fashioned tent revival or something.

The Church is not a money-making business; it is not buildings and bank accounts; it is all born-again disciples of Christ who would exist even if every church building on the planet was burned to the ground and every denomination and organization dissolved in the next instant. The Church has never had doors, or budgets, or rent because it is a spiritual entity made up of divinely-transformed human beings. So, no, the Church does not need to be run like a business. Indeed, it must not be run as a business.

Selah.

 

[Saucy]

I get what you're saying. There's the 'Church' and the 'church'. Throughout history humans have gathered in a building, especially the temple. I'm not saying that the building is holy and I know the Holy Spirit isn't in a building, but inside each of us. But the church does gather together. We are asked to tithe to support the ministry the church does in that community. That means taking care of people's money, paying the bills, keeping the lights on, etc. Yes, the church would thrive without buildings. Yes, we can all go 'gather on the mountain' to hear a message. But even Jesus said to render on Caesar what is Caesar's. He and the disciples had money and dealt with taxes and expenses in their own way.

 

[aiki]

I get what you're saying. There's the 'Church' and the 'church'. Throughout history humans have gathered in a building, especially the temple.

But this does not make a building dedicated to the housing of meetings of the Church therefore necessary. Believers in China meet in small groups in various basements, barns, stockrooms, and hidden forest groves. Their numbers are growing massively, however, totally without the buildings, ministries, and money we in the West think are so vital to Church life.

Selah.

 

[Saucy]

Christianity is still illegal in China last I heard. That's the ONLY reason why the early church gathered in houses and stockrooms...it was illegal back then too. Romans were snatching up Christians left and right and savagely murdering them. When it's not illegal to gather, we choose a central building. It's easier and has more space and opportunities to hold functions. A church has many uses in the community. Housing, weddings, funerals, food pantries, etc.

If you personally prefer to gather in a small group, that's fine! Some people enjoy being part of a larger church body with activities and all of that. That's fine also! Gather however you wish. But if you are a part of a larger church with a full-time pastor, there are bills.

 

[aiki]

Oh, I'm not into the house-church stuff. But I'm not into the mega-church, business-model approach to "doing church," either. The Church has two fundamental, over-arching aims (or, it should have): sharing the Gospel and making faithful disciples of Jesus. All the other stuff - food banks, language classes, schools, day-cares, etc. - ends up diverting the Church from properly and fully achieving these two mandates given by Christ to his Bride, the Church. These ministries more often than not divert and dissipate the resources of money, time and energy of the Church into endeavours that frequently become far removed from calling sinners to repentance and the teaching and training of faithful disciples of Christ. I would urge you to read this blog entry:

Tithing for Toilet Paper: Doing God's Business the World's Way. | Christian Forums

Selah.

 

[ValleyGal]

Steven and others were appointed to help meet the needs of the poor, the fatherless, the widowed, etc. The funds that they did that with came from the offerings of the early church (the early Christians). I believe this is a fundamental part of church structure today, as it is one way of sharing the love of Jesus. If you tell a hungry person to go in peace and that God loves them, they will not listen to you unless you put your money where their hunger is. Meeting basic needs is part of the outreach that we as a church are called to do.

 

[aiki]

Steven and others were appointed to help meet the needs of the poor, the fatherless, the widowed, etc. The funds that they did that with came from the offerings of the early church (the early Christians). I believe this is a fundamental part of church structure today, as it is one way of sharing the love of Jesus. If you tell a hungry person to go in peace and that God loves them, they will not listen to you unless you put your money where their hunger is. Meeting basic needs is part of the outreach that we as a church are called to do.

Yes, charitable acts are to be the bread and butter of the Church. But never at the expense of fulfilling the two fundamental mandates given by Christ to the Church. Very often, however, this is exactly what happens. The example of the Church recounted in Acts and the Pauline letters is that of the Church caring first and foremost for its own. Its resources were primarily directed to the care of those that constituted it, not the lost.

The lost may want to be fed, and clothed and supported financially, but what they need is to be saved. What an evil thing it is to merely make the lost comfortable on their way to Hell! Certainly, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, tend the sick - but meet their desperate need of a Saviour with the bold and undiminished truth of the Gospel, too! The modern Church has, I fear, bent much of its efforts to alleviating temporal human problems while neglecting eternal matters.

Selah.

 

[ValleyGal]

You are entitled to your opinion. I differ in mine.... I believe meeting human needs is a fundamental part of outreach and sharing the Gospel. No one will hear the gospel of love without seeing love in action.

 

[aiki]

No one will hear the gospel of love without seeing love in action.

Oh? How about the thief on the cross? Or the three thousand who came to faith in Christ in Acts 2? These conversions did not require "seeing love in action." Nobody was given food to eat, or medicine, or clothing in these instances in order to gain a hearing for the preaching of the Gospel and the salvation of the lost.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

You are entitled to your opinion.

By the way, it is not merely an opinion I offer but the plain teaching of Scripture.

Selah.

 

[ValleyGal]

Oh? How about the thief on the cross? Or the three thousand who came to faith in Christ in Acts 2? These conversions did not require "seeing love in action." Nobody was given food to eat, or medicine, or clothing in these instances in order to gain a hearing for the preaching of the Gospel and the salvation of the lost.

Selah.

The thief on the cross saw the greatest act of love in action. In Acts, they witnessed the Spirit in action. The Spirit is God and God is love. Again, I beg to differ. They witnessed love in action... perhaps they were not fed because none were in need there. Today, love in action includes caring for the body, for those who are marginalized.

By the way, it is not merely an opinion I offer but the plain teaching of Scripture.

Selah.

Because Steven is not in Scripture, as meeting people's human needs is not in Scripture. I personally do not believe you can divorce meeting needs from sharing the Gospel. But you are entitled to your opinion, and getting back to the OP, there are a variety of church structures, and if she wants to meet in a field and not have a communal provision of tithes and offerings to meet the needs of the church (either the people or the building), then she can meet in a field where there is no provision. Each must be convinced in their own heart....

 

[mcarmichael]

....

 

[mcarmichael]

fwiw, I'm not sure that Sun Tzu ever worked on a boat. Whereas, we all say: "We are all on the same boat. Let's hope that if floats."

Something like that. The only thing you have to worry about is your own tax report, I think. Not that it helps.