Church of Christ Rejects Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[B1inHim]

You think nothing terrible like sodom and flood happenings of the OT, happen in the NT.

Read revelation again.

For the UNSAVED after the Harpazo... not before then...

The Lord isn't slow to do what He promised, as some people think.​

Rather, He is patient for your sake.​

He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to Him and change the way they think and act.​

​

The Lord does not delay His promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

​

 

[B1inHim]

Let me assure you, agreeing that Gods will be done no matter what the event may be that is from God, is not of a wrong attitude at all, and does not mean that this person only claims Christs salvation.
But this person that says gods will be done no matter what, certinally does have Christs salvation without doubt, and he certinally does have the right attitude on this, let me assure you of that.

On the other hand those that don't agree with Gods will are not saved.

You keep defending yourself like you are being accused of something wrong...

even when you are being spoken to in plain words, you do not understand what is being said...
you said

I don't believe as you do that planes will fall out of the air at the rapture, but if the rapture is pre trib and planes do fall out of the air etc., then I say God's will be done.

That statement "but if the rapture is pre trib and planes do fall out of the air etc., then I say God's will be done". in any book is insensitive to the will of GOD... your will is that you are correct in your theology concerning this subject...
This is Gods will concerning this subject;

The Lord isn't slow to do what He promised, as some people think.​

Rather, He is patient for your sake.​

He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to Him and change the way they think and act.​

The Lord does not delay His promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

OUR attitude should never be self centered

​

 

[get it right]

You obviously do not know the difference between the resurrection and the translation of the living.

You are clearly speaking of yourself here.

Both the bodies of the dead in Christ and the bodies of those in Christ that are alive at His coming on the clouds are changed, glorified, redeemed in incorruption and in immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[get it right]

watchm@n, the dead and those alive are both raptured as scriptures and I stated

They are two seperate raptures, the dead before the living, as 1 Thessalonians 4 and I - me states.

 

[get it right]

You keep defending yourself like you are being accused of something wrong...

I'm clearly defending that agreeing with Gods will is right, no matter what It may be, why do you say I'm defending myself?

Theres nothing here about me at all.

even when you are being spoken to in plain words, you do not understand what is being said...

Another one seemingly talking about himself.
I,m very aware what you are saying so far.

you said

I don't believe as you do that planes will fall out of the air at the rapture, but if the rapture is pre trib and planes do fall out of the air etc., then I say God's will be done.

That statement "but if the rapture is pre trib and planes do fall out of the air etc., then I say God's will be done". in any book is insensitive to the will of GOD... your will is that you are correct in your theology concerning this subject...

You are twisting things around here, nothing here is about my will but Gods, and if He allowed planes to fall out of the sky which I have already said I don't believe will be the case, but you do, then Gods will be done.
Gods will be done in every instance whatever it may be.

This is Gods will concerning this subject;

The Lord isn't slow to do what He promised, as some people think.​

Rather, He is patient for your sake.​

He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to Him and change the way they think and act.​

The Lord does not delay His promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

OUR attitude should never be self centered

​

What on earth are you talking about?
My attitude that Gods will always be done is self centered? you say.

I say you are wrong.

You accused me of not following what is being said, Oh boy

 

[watchm@n]

watchm@n, the dead and those alive are both raptured as scriptures and I stated

They are two seperate raptures, the dead before the living, as 1 Thessalonians 4 and I - me states.

According to your perverse understanding of what the rapture is or might be.

 

[get it right]

According to your perverse understanding of what the rapture is or might be.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

I said exactly as the scriptures say, and you call it perverse.

get it right:
[/FONT]

watchm@n, the dead and those alive are both raptured as scriptures and I stated

They are two seperate raptures, the dead before the living, as 1 Thessalonians 4 and I - me states.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you see yet that the dead in Christ and those in Christ who are alive are both raptured?

Do you see yet that the dead are raptured first, followed by those alive?

Do you see that I said exactly as the scriptures say?

Do you still say what I said is perverse?

 

[watchm@n]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

I said exactly as the scriptures say, and you call it perverse.[/FONT]

You do not say what scripture says. Scripture never calls the resurrection, or the catching away of the living , the rapture.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]Do you still say what I said is perverse?

Yes

 

[Son of Israel]

really? are you 100% sure about that?...




Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236)
"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image
are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth
beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little
more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal
survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the
Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented
the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard,
meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the
legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans,
who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part
clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that
are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the
Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings
judgment upon the world was Christ."

Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28

Yes, it is true that Hippolytus didn't know that the times of the 10 kingdoms (10 toe era) was fulfilled in the days when Jesus was born.

I don't know if that ignorance qualifies him as being a fore-runner of modern dispensationalism, but I will give you the point if you feel strongly about it

Regardless, no one in the civilized world celebrated such a doctrine of dispensationalism until the Scofield reference Bible began it's slow pollution of theology. Of that, I am 100% sure.

Blessings,
Son of Israel

 

[get it right]

get it right:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I said exactly as the scriptures say, and you call it perverse[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

​

You do not say what scripture says. Scripture never calls the resurrection, or the catching away of the living , the rapture.

I see, are you pushing truth aside to play on words?

get it right:

 

[get it right]

watchm@n, many put truth aside to try and chalk up points for themselves rather than for God.

 

[get it right]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Originally Posted by [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]watchm@n[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]

According to your perverse understanding of what the rapture is or might be.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

I said exactly as the scriptures say, and you call it perverse.

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]get it right:[/FONT]

watchm@n, the dead rise and those alive as well are caught up as scriptures and I stated

They are two seperate catching up's to Christ in the clouds in the air, the dead before the living, as 1 Thessalonians 4 and I - me states.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
​

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you see yet that the dead in Christ rise and those in Christ who are alive are caught up also?

Do you see yet that the dead rise first, followed by those alive?

Do you see that I said exactly as the scriptures say?

Do you still say what I said is perverse?

I have left out raptured because of your concern.

Is it perverted now what I say according to the scriptures?

 

[B1inHim]

accidental double post removed

 

[B1inHim]

watchm@n, many put truth aside to try and chalk up points for themselves rather than for God.

You are being very antagonistic towards others who do not agree with your theology... It has been clearly presented that if your theory (NOT Gods proven will for all men) was to take place that thousands if not millions of people will be killed and maimed by the outcome of it... This, as has been shown, will remove faith for the ones who did not go, or for them to have hope in GOD or the ability to have affection towards GOD by the ones who survived the theory that you are standing by...The ones who had loved ones mowed down by out of control vehicles and other modes of travel that no longer have the operator at the wheel...

I do not have a GOD that would cause such a horrible and terrible thing in order to accomplish His will...Not One who actually died for all mankind anyways.

There is no amount of theory to prove your teaching that can excuse the unacceptable casualties that it will produce, physical and spiritual casualties...

Father would have us to do what we can to help others who are His, expose the lies and proclaim the Truth... ONLY you and you alone are making antagonistic replies and acting disrespectfully towards others...

This is not about your interpretation of this subject it is your reaction to what is being said by others that is not Christian correct on your part...
Your continual disrespect is not appreciated at all…

What on earth are you talking about?

My attitude that Gods will always be done is self centered? you say.

I say you are wrong.

You accused me of not following what is being said, Oh boy

Just because you believe in something that would cause thousands if not millions of people will be killed and maimed by the outcome of it... This, as has been shown, will remove faith for the ones who did not go, or have hope in GOD or the ability to have affection towards GOD by the ones who survived the theory that you are standing by...The ones who had loved ones mowed down by out of control vehicles and other modes of travel that no longer have the operator at the wheel...

And have been able to find a formula that makes it so in your mind does not make it Gods will…
You accused me of not following what is being said
You follow what is being said, this is a fact, however you do not understand what is being said by some of the others who are posting and you automatically place a irresponsible , disrespectful remark towards the person posting if they do not agree with you, instead of asking what they meant, you jump to a conclusion that they are attacking you. Of this I speak from personal experience… What I am doing even now is not attacking you, defaming you or any other rule infraction; I am making a clear and responsible observation of the facts…

Get it right,
I do not agree with the Pre-Tribulation harpazo, for one it is an out in out act of terror if it happens like it is being taught, with no regard for anyone except the ones who go in it
and
two this servant has been in it in a word of wisdom vision/dream. IT did NOT happen yet and it does not take place when everything is fine and dandy …

Father plans to spend even more energy in bringing the lost to the table even after the “harpazo” and to do what the Pre-Tribulation teaching teaches will most definitely cause almost everyone who does not go in it, to turn towards the god of this world and not Him…

Lord Jesus’ resurrection and all that we have been working towards for the last 2,000 years, not to mention the BIG picture would have been done, all in vein, if in fact the teaching that is called the Pre-Tribulation rapture took place as it is being taught… And there is no OTHER realistic outcome than as what I have presented, if it does happen the way it is taught…

 

[get it right]

You are being very antagonistic towards others who do not agree with your theology... It has been clearly presented that if your theory (NOT Gods proven will for all men) was to take place that thousands if not millions of people will be killed and maimed by the outcome of it...

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Boy, you have really twisted what I said, for instance, I never said, thousands if not millions will be killed by planes falling out of the sky etc. you said that you , I said many times I don't believe it.[/FONT]​

ONLY you and you alone are making antagonistic replies and acting disrespectfully towards others...

Your continual disrespect is not appreciated at all…

Yet there has been none of that by me.

Just because you believe in something that would cause thousands if not millions of people will be killed and maimed by the outcome of it...

But I have told you many times I don't believe that, you keep saying that's what's going happen

Get it right,
I do not agree with the Pre-Tribulation harpazo, for one it is an out in out act of terror if it happens like it is being taught, with no regard for anyone except the ones who go in it
and
two this servant has been in it in a word of wisdom vision/dream. IT did NOT happen yet and it does not take place when everything is fine and dandy …

We know that you say you have been in it a word of wisdom vision /dream, but some don't agree with you, If that's OK?

Father plans to spend even more energy in bringing the lost to the table even after the “harpazo” and to do what the Pre-Tribulation teaching teaches will most definitely cause almost everyone who does not go in it, to turn towards the god of this world and not Him…

Lord Jesus’ resurrection and all that we have been working towards for the last 2,000 years, not to mention the BIG picture would have been done, all in vein, if in fact the teaching that is called the Pre-Tribulation rapture took place as it is being taught… And there is no OTHER realistic outcome than as what I have presented, if it does happen the way it is taught…

We have diffrent interpertations on the way it is taught.
Perhaps not becoming aggresive against those that believe diffrent to you, might show a willing to learn spirit.

 

[get it right]

You are being very antagonistic towards others who do not agree with your theology... It has been clearly presented that if your theory (NOT Gods proven will for all men) was to take place that thousands if not millions of people will be killed and maimed by the outcome of it... This, as has been shown, will remove faith for the ones who did not go, or for them to have hope in GOD or the ability to have affection towards GOD by the ones who survived the theory that you are standing by...The ones who had loved ones mowed down by out of control vehicles and other modes of travel that no longer have the operator at the wheel...

There is no amount of theory to prove your teaching that can excuse the unacceptable casualties that it will produce, physical and spiritual casualties...

ONLY you and you alone are making antagonistic replies and acting disrespectfully towards others...

Your continual disrespect is not appreciated at all…
Just because you believe in something that would cause thousands if not millions of people will be killed and maimed by the outcome of it...

Get it right,
I do not agree with the Pre-Tribulation harpazo, for one it is an out in out act of terror if it happens like it is being taught, with no regard for anyone except the ones who go in it
and
two this servant has been in it in a word of wisdom vision/dream. IT did NOT happen yet and it does not take place when everything is fine and dandy …

Lord Jesus’ resurrection and all that we have been working towards for the last 2,000 years, not to mention the BIG picture would have been done, all in vein, if in fact the teaching that is called the Pre-Tribulation rapture took place as it is being taught… And there is no OTHER realistic outcome than as what I have presented, if it does happen the way it is taught…

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 Thess 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.[/FONT]​

 

[get it right]

The pentacostal and rc church are so easily recognised in scriptures, and of course some others are shown as well by the things they teach, IMO.

False teachings all fall into the catergorie of mystery babylon,
which dominates the majority of christianity.

Half anyway - five of the ten virgins,

2 billion christians in the world, then 1 billlion will be invited to the wedding supper.

How many then the bride?

Quite small, I think. 144,000?
pure and virgins, I think so.

If I was Christ I would not want to marry bad mouthed so called christians that hate, hate, hate.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I do not have a GOD that would cause such a horrible and terrible thing in order to accomplish His will...Not One who actually died for all mankind anyways.

There is no amount of theory to prove your teaching that can excuse the unacceptable casualties that it will produce, physical and spiritual casualties...

Defining God by how WE think He should behave is the same as creating our own personal god - idolatry.

What God has declared to come to pass, will indeed come to pass, whether any of us agree with it or not.

The Bible is clear. The catching away of the church takes place before the anti-christ is given authority.

 

[B1inHim]

[/color][/font]

Defining God by how WE think He should behave is the same as creating our own personal god - idolatry.

What God has declared to come to pass, will indeed come to pass, whether any of us agree with it or not.

The Bible is clear. The catching away of the church takes place before the anti-christ is given authority.

I agree with you completely...

The difference I believe between what you are saying and what I am saying is the actual timing of the "harpazo"...
I do not believe that a PRE-Tribulational harpazo will happen due to the many different unnecessary and untimely deaths that will occur if it happens before the opening of the 6th seal...
The Anti-Christ issue is not a question. according to the evidence that is offered, we are gathered up before he is given authority...

However, it would be completely out of character and seriously counter productive if GOD did the gathering on a day that did not have a problem for mankind already happening...

"a thief in the night" is more than just someone who comes when you least expect him... it is a picture of someone who comes under the guise of distraction and/or under cover... this is the protocol of a good thief. Lord Jesus would be the best.
To remove the restrainer on just any old day would cause countless thousands if not millions of deaths by reason of all the unpiloted and unmanned vehicles and aircraft plunging and careening out of control into crowds of innocent and unsuspecting people , around the world...

Lets go beyond this to the next day...after a Pre-tribulational harpazo... The view would eclipse that of the twin towers in magnitude and mayhem...
hundreds of thousands of people have died due to something that GOD is directly responsible for...
The people who are still here would be rendered stubborn and hard hearted towards the very same GOD who died for their sins...
All hope will be lost... any faith in GOD will be dashed and who in any world would have affectionate agape love towards a GOD who caused the death of your little Sally and all of her classmates while she was sitting at her desk in school when a unpiloted airliner crashed down on them?
The death of thousands in a mall when a tanker full of petrolium carrened out of control and burst into flames...? An entire family was crushed to death and two neighbors maimed by a van that aimlessly flew over the guard rail of the interstate and landed on top of the living room...? Not just here but all around the world...

Now mind you that after all of this is almost completed GOD does put in the hearts of the multitude to fulfill His will (Rev 17:17)... However, I do not believe that this is due to the aftermath of a act of GOD that would look like an act of terror in anyone's book.
The OT God may have done something like this but we have a supremely better covenant than they did.

In the very, very near future, we are in store for a lot of things that we have been waiting for since it was first written and heard of.
Many different interpretations and theories have been formulated to explain these things...
IMO, if the Pre-tribulational theory is correct, it will be completely counter productive and contrary to the basic needs for faith, hope and love that make up all relationships.

WE are NOT enemies, you, others and I, and knowing or believing in a different timing for this "harpazo" does not make us, either of us, any of us, out to be Anti-Christ in what we are sharing...
THIS is NOT a salvation issue...IE; Our salvation does not hinge on our interpretation of what we believe or have seen concerning this subject...

Right or wrong, we will go when it happens... well, half will go for sure...LOL

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Church of Christ Rejects Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Along with the Church of Christ, the RCs and Orthodox reject that teaching. I will side with them on it

Raptured or Not? A Catholic Understanding - Catholic Update October©2005

Church teaching on the Rapture

A s Roman Catholics, we might ask, “Has the Church censured anything regarding the Rapture doctrine?” The answer would have to be no and yes.
No, to my knowledge, there has never been an explicit statement relative to the Rapture. But as we have seen, the Rapture forms part of a particular millennial expectation based on a particular use of biblical texts. Yes, the Church has explicitly rejected both this kind of speculation and this way of interpreting the Scriptures.
The Council of Ephesus (431) denounced it as “a deviation and a fable.” It was denounced again in 1516 at the Fifth Lateran Council.

In 1824, the work of Manuel Lacunza (noted above) was placed on the Index of Forbidden Books. In 1941 and 1944, responding to questions from the Archbishop of Santiago, Chile, the Congregation of the Holy Office (now the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) again rejected this kind of millennial speculation with explicit reference to the work of Lacunza. As recently as April 22, 1998, with the turn of the millennium approaching, Pope John Paul II warned again against this way of thinking.