Church of Christ Rejects Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[B1inHim]

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.​

5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.​

These of the church are in Heaven before Christ opens the first seal.​

IS NOT...
the individuals that are singing/saying this are clearly listed... they are speaking figuratively... past present and future... BUT every single solitary individual that is present speaking these words are accounted for...NOT the multitude

 

[B1inHim]

The Pre tribulation teaching may have started with these two...

J.N. Darby (1800-1881)

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795)

And I am sure that some might even find it being taught earlier than these…

Back then, unlike today, there were no major interstates, cars in every driveway or airlines to be considered… thus the following could not have been included…

IF the Pre-Tribulation Rapture were to happen as it is being taught, there would be hundreds of thousands if not millions of people being killed and maimed by the direct results of this teaching-taking place.
The unmanned and pilot less aircraft and vehicles would careen out of control into buildings, shopping centers, schools and occupied habitats, killing and maiming unsuspecting individuals.
This would hold GOD Almighty as being directly responsible for the devastation that would ensue such a thing.

1 Cor. 13:13
And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Abides; meno, men'-o; a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) :- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), × thine own.

Faith; pistis, pis'-tis; from Greek 3982 (peitho); persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstract constancy in such profession; by extensive the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself :- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Hope; elpis, el-pece'; from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence :- faith, hope.

Love; agape, ag-ah'-pay; from Greek 25 (agapao); love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast :- (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.

By this happening this way, Faith would clearly be removed from the table for others to have by seeing this happen according to this doctrine. YES it will be seen…

Hope would also be removed as well for the same reasons and even more so.
And who would want to Love or have affection for a GOD who would cause the untimely death of the people who died at the hands of unmanned and unpiloted vehicles and aircraft initiated by an act of GOD that has been awaited for by Christianity for centuries...

OLD testament GOD, maybe...NEW Testament GOD, since Jesus... not even

We have faith in believing that our salvation is based on the Word of GOD and this coupled with hope makes it all the more desired.
However, the picture of removing every blood bought and paid for child of GOD in this particular way is actually an act of terror… Remember 9/11?

That is not God’s Way​

 

[interpreter]

Without really reading this thread:

The rapture? I wasn't aware there was going to be a Third Coming.

Me neither.

In the historicist view, Jesus returned with power when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds in 312AD (see Matthew 24:30).
That brought the first Christian horseman, St. Constantine, who put the sign on his laberum and immediately conquered Rome and all the known world for Jesus and His Church. Christians have ruled over the earth ever since, and will to the end.
And Constantine rode a white horse and conquered with a bow (see Rev. 6:1-2).
And he gathered all the Church together, to Nicea (see Mat. 24:31). Jesus never mentions a "rapture" either in the Gospels or the Revelation (given to us by Jesus).
And the first Christian kingdom lasted 1000 years.

And may God bless the Church of Christ for getting it right.

 

[HarrisonS]

...The qualifying factor of being a saint in this present age is being born again and a member of Christ’s body. The qualifying factor of being a saint in the great tribulation is martyrdom.

Again, excellent points. However, I do not believe the qualification for sainthood during the tribulation will be martyrdom. Rather, it will be be exactly the same as it was in any other age, repentance and acceptance of Christ and His finished work, as far as it had been revealed to them at the time when they lived. There can be no other way.

As I ponted out before, there has to be someone left to enter the Millennium in their mortal bodies. Look at Rev. 20:9. Who are all of those people who are "as the sand of the sea", and rebel against the reign of Christ? Obviously, they are fallen human beings and are unsaved and therefore rebel. The explanation is that they are descendants of tribulation saints, who were not martyred, and allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom as mortals and thus were able to multiply and repopulate the earth. Some of the descendants do accept Christ, but many do not, despite a perfect environment.

 

[B1inHim]

This where you are wrong. The bible does indeed tell us they are the martyred.
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.



There is no question that the multitude in revelation 7 are one and the same as those who are mention in Revelation 6 being killed for there testimony. They came out of great tribulation through martyrdom.

This statement is in defense of your own refusal to hear the truth.

According to this account someone could say that all people who wear hard hats are heavy equipment operators, which is not true...
Or everyone who has a bible is a Christian, again, this is not so...

The white robe is a type of symbol of being washed by the blood as it is indicated in Rev. 7:14
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

IF these people in Revelation 7 would have been martyred as you are indicating, there would be something said as such, it is not said. That is an assumption... which can and has caused many people to agree to many of the "old leaven" theologies that are bringing separation and confusion to the Body of Christ

"Old leaven"

Apostle Paul used this type of language to explain how one sin in the camp can cause the entire group in the camp to become contaminated...
By removing the "old leaven" and having unleavened bread to eat the practice of sin could be contained or somewhat countered with sincerity and truth.

Unleavened bread does not get puffed up with exaggerated claims and by putting away from us these teachings that can only be found in the formulas of men, we can then, easily see the Truth like a beacon of light in a dark room...

These issues... Pre, Mid, Post-tribulation are not salvation stoppers and saying things like "your own refusal to hear the truth" is very disrespectful...

 

[Dale]

Kotel in post #56:
"The saints who participate in the Pre-trib "harpazo" are a different group of people than the saints in Rev. 7.

Those caught up are born again by the Holy Spirit, the tribulation saints are not."

Saints who aren't born again? Whatever happened to John Chapter 3?
Saints denied the grace of the Holy Spirit? Ridiculous.

Not only are you setting up categories that aren't in the Bible, you are putting limits on the Holy Spirit, part of the Trinity. You can't say that the Holy Spirit is gone from the world during the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.


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[HisdaughterJen]

Kotel in post #56:
"The saints who participate in the Pre-trib "harpazo" are a different group of people than the saints in Rev. 7.

Those caught up are born again by the Holy Spirit, the tribulation saints are not."

Saints who aren't born again? Whatever happened to John Chapter 3?
Saints denied the grace of the Holy Spirit? Ridiculous.

Not only are you setting up categories that aren't in the Bible, you are putting limits on the Holy Spirit, part of the Trinity. You can't say that the Holy Spirit is gone from the world during the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.


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You are right. The church is removed. The Holy Spirit is not.

Jesus is the one that said that a person must be born of the Spirit to enter the Kingdom in John 2.

Those who do not enter by the blood of Christ will be judged by the law.

 

[get it right]

IS NOT...
the individuals that are singing/saying this are clearly listed... they are speaking figuratively... past present and future... BUT every single solitary individual that is present speaking these words are accounted for...NOT the multitude

The twenty four elders are representive of the multitude.

The elders are clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. ​

They are redeemed to God by His blood.​

They are out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; ​

They have been made unto God, Kings and Priests, and shall reign on the earth.​

White rainment, crowns of Gold, Redeemed to God by His blood, out of every kindred and tongue people and nation, have been made Kings and Priests unto God, shall reign on the earth.

Looks like Christians - The Church to me.

 

[B1inHim]

The twenty four elders are representive of the multitude.

The elders are clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. ​

They are redeemed to God by His blood.​

They are out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; ​

They have been made unto God, Kings and Priests, and shall reign on the earth.​

White rainment, crowns of Gold, Redeemed to God by His blood, out of every kindred and tongue people and nation, have been made Kings and Priests unto God, shall reign on the earth.

Looks like Christians - The Church to me.

Sounds like, not looks like

No, it is a statement/declaration being made by the precise individuals present... you are assuming that the elders are the entire multitude...
IF this is correct Apostle John would have included this word in the description, he did not and the interpretation is complete conjecture...

You are translating 24 elders into multitudes... doesn't work in any way, shape or form... IF the entire Body of Christ or a "multitude" was there Apostle John would have said so in those words just like he did in Revelation 7. They would have been included in the picture of what he was LITERALLY recording for GOD Almighty... he did not do so, therefore this information that you are offering is incorrect...

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Church of Christ Rejects Pre-Tribulation Rapture


Good for them.

 

[watchm@n]

Church of Christ Rejects Pre-Tribulation Rapture


Good for them.

Yes, we should all reject this doctrine of demons.

 

[Son of Israel]

sorry, Son of Israel, but that's wrong...

chiliasm, or premillennialism, did exist prior to Francisco Ribera... the early church leaders taught it (Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Theophilus, etc.)... they even believed in a "Six Day Theory" or a six thousand year theory which involved a thousand years being considered a day to God.

the early teachers and leaders were also not dispensational... Justin Martyr himself taught against "ridiculous interpretations of the Jews" (Dialog with Trypho 123, 124, 135)... even Hippolytus taught that the reign of the Antichrist would be at a future date (Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28)

The origins of the Premillennial doctrine can be traced to John N. Darby, in England, about 1830. Premillennialism therefore, is of comparatively recent origin. The doctrine of Premillennialism became popular in the United States through the influence of the Scofield Reference Bible, published for the first time in the United States around the turn of the century. The Scofield Reference Bible incorporated Darby’s ideas with explanatory notes and cross references on the same page of the text of the Scriptures. This is the reason why Darby’s ideas have become the prevailing tenets of Premillennialism in the United States today. Many people accept what they find in their Bibles as authority. Even if it's just in the margins. The text of the Bible is authority, cross references and notes, and even chapter and verse divisions are of human origin.
The Scofield Reference Bible also taught a view of the interpretation of the Bible which has come to be known as Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism teaches that the Bible may be divided up into seven distinct periods or dispensations, in which God deals with the human race on the basis of one specific principle. This is sometimes also referred to as Radical Premillennialism. There are many different brands of Premillennialism, about 165 different varieties, each teaching something a little different about the end times.
The chief passages in the Bible to which Premillennialists appeal are: Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:1-11; 65:17-25; Ezekiel chapters 40-48; Daniel 2:42-45; 7:23-25; 9:24-27; Micah 4:1-8; Matthew 24:3-44; Acts 3:19-21; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:1-10. The Premillennialist makes the claim that all of the above passages look toward a future fulfillment, after the second coming of Christ.

 

[get it right]

Yes, we should all reject this doctrine of demons.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.​

To escape all these things is to not be here for them.

To be kept from the hour of temptation is not to be here for it.

Can one escape a whipping while being whipped. One can escape from the full number of lashes but not from all the lashes.

The catching up to the Lord is before the hour of temptation, tribulation, wrath, that's to come upon the whole world.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The origins of the Premillennial doctrine can be traced to John N. Darby, in England, about 1830. Premillennialism therefore, is of comparatively recent origin. The doctrine of Premillennialism became popular in the United States through the influence of the Scofield Reference Bible, published for the first time in the United States around the turn of the century. The Scofield Reference Bible incorporated Darby’s ideas with explanatory notes and cross references on the same page of the text of the Scriptures. This is the reason why Darby’s ideas have become the prevailing tenets of Premillennialism in the United States today. Many people accept what they find in their Bibles as authority. Even if it's just in the margins. The text of the Bible is authority, cross references and notes, and even chapter and verse divisions are of human origin.
The Scofield Reference Bible also taught a view of the interpretation of the Bible which has come to be known as Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism teaches that the Bible may be divided up into seven distinct periods or dispensations, in which God deals with the human race on the basis of one specific principle. This is sometimes also referred to as Radical Premillennialism. There are many different brands of Premillennialism, about 165 different varieties, each teaching something a little different about the end times.
The chief passages in the Bible to which Premillennialists appeal are: Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:1-11; 65:17-25; Ezekiel chapters 40-48; Daniel 2:42-45; 7:23-25; 9:24-27; Micah 4:1-8; Matthew 24:3-44; Acts 3:19-21; 1 Corinthians 15:20-28; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:1-10. The Premillennialist makes the claim that all of the above passages look toward a future fulfillment, after the second coming of Christ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Church of Christ Rejects Pre-Tribulation Rapture


Good for them.

 

[contrabar]

The origins of the Premillennial doctrine can be traced to John N. Darby, in England, about 1830.

really? are you 100% sure about that?...




Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236)
"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image
are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth
beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little
more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal
survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the
Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented
the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard,
meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the
legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans,
who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part
clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that
are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the
Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings
judgment upon the world was Christ."

Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28

 

[kotel]

Harrison
I checked several of my books on Revelation and the authors agree with you that Christ’s death and shed blood atones for the sins of the great Multitude, what is true for them is true for the saints of all ages; only the blood of Christ avails to wash away sin. Yet they don’t explain the significance of why they have to wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In addition to the faith in God, the Israelites had to sacrifice animals and apply their blood to the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant. They continually had to offer blood sacrifices to temporarily cover their sins until the perfect Lamb came to permanently atone for their sin.

As the result of Christ’s death individuals in the church have been redeemed and justified by his blood (Rom 5:9; Eph 1:7) and he has washed us from our sins in his own blood (Rev. 1:5). Because of what Christ accomplished on the cross we have been declared righteous before God. By faith in Christ and not by works, righteousness has been imputed to us. God looks at us and sees our white robes of righteousness and doesn’t condemn us for our sin.

Those in the church were found wearing robes of righteousness and raptured, those left behind need to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb to complete their salvation according to God's will. This is faith plus works as it was in the OT. All of them through out the great tribulation are required to wash their robes after they become faithful to Jesus.

The day of the Lord begins with the fall of Babylon and after its destruction the electronic mark of the Image is implemented (Rev. 14:7-9). At this point in time the tribulation saints, who are spiritually dead, are called to endure patiently as they await their martyrdom. The saints who physically die in the Lord will be blessed with eternal life and participate in the first resurrection and reign with Christ a thousand years. The reference to the blessing of those who die in the Lord from this time on is inclusive to those martyred.

Saints [Aram. qaddisin; Gk. hagioi]; is a descriptive noun for the people of God in the OT and especially the NT.

The people of Israel from the time of the Exodus, came to be called “holy ones” because they were set apart for God. Their consecration to God meant that they were expected to be different from the rest of humanity. They were a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

In the NT “saints” refers to the corporate Church, a term that in the OT was reserved for Israel and is now applied to believers in Christ. We are a kingdom of priests and a holy spiritual nation.

In Revelation the martyred tribulation saints are set apart for God from among the other sinners on earth. They are not called a kingdom of priests or a holy nation.

There are four groups of saints in Revelation; the saints in heaven, the martyred saints on earth, the 144,000 Israelites caught up to God’s throne and the resurrected OT saints. The number “four” always has reference to all that is created and applies to the four groups that come from earth.

 

[B1inHim]

The catching up to the Lord is before the hour of temptation, tribulation, wrath, that's to come upon the whole world.

John 16:33 (KJV)
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This is something that should be considered... not that we are expecting to go through the entire GT... yet we are going through some of it...

The Pre-trib teaching makes GOD out to be a terrorist...and I have clearly pointed this out...J.N. Darby (1800-1881)

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795

And I am sure that some might even find it being taught earlier than these…

Back then, unlike today, there were no major interstates, cars in every driveway or airlines to be considered… thus the following could not have been included…

IF the Pre-Tribulation Rapture were to happen as it is being taught, there would be hundreds of thousands if not millions of people being killed and maimed by the direct results of this teaching-taking place.
The unmanned and pilot less aircraft and vehicles would careen out of control into buildings, shopping centers, schools and occupied habitats, killing and maiming unsuspecting individuals.
This would hold GOD Almighty as being directly responsible for the devastation that would ensue such a thing.

1 Cor. 13:13
And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Abides; meno, men'-o; a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) :- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), × thine own.

Faith; pistis, pis'-tis; from Greek 3982 (peitho); persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstract constancy in such profession; by extensive the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself :- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Hope; elpis, el-pece'; from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence :- faith, hope.

Love; agape, ag-ah'-pay; from Greek 25 (agapao); love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast :- (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.

By this happening this way, Faith would clearly be removed from the table for others to have by seeing this happen according to this doctrine. YES it will be seen…

Hope would also be removed as well for the same reasons and even more so.
And who would want to Love, have affection for a GOD who would cause the untimely death of the people who died at the hands of unmanned and unpiloted vehicles and aircraft initiated by an act of GOD that has been awaited for by Christianity for centuries

We have faith in believing that our salvation is based on the Word of GOD and this coupled with hope makes it all the more desired.
However, the picture of removing every blood bought and paid for child of GOD in this particular way is actually an act of terror…

That is not God’s Way

 

[get it right]

reply not work properly, try again.

 

[get it right]

John 16:33 (KJV)
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

This is something that should be considered... not that we are expecting to go through the entire GT... yet we are going through some of it...

The Pre-trib teaching makes GOD out to be a terrorist...and I have clearly pointed this out...J.N. Darby (1800-1881)

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795

And I am sure that some might even find it being taught earlier than these…

Back then, unlike today, there were no major interstates, cars in every driveway or airlines to be considered… thus the following could not have been included…

IF the Pre-Tribulation Rapture were to happen as it is being taught, there would be hundreds of thousands if not millions of people being killed and maimed by the direct results of this teaching-taking place.
The unmanned and pilot less aircraft and vehicles would careen out of control into buildings, shopping centers, schools and occupied habitats, killing and maiming unsuspecting individuals.
This would hold GOD Almighty as being directly responsible for the devastation that would ensue such a thing.

I don't believe that will happen, god is able that his will be done whatever that may be,also it's not bibical, there is no calamities mentioned in the caught up verses just the wonderful event itself.
And whatever case, God's will be done.

1 Cor. 13:13
And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Abides; meno, men'-o; a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) :- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), × thine own.

Faith; pistis, pis'-tis; from Greek 3982 (peitho); persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstract constancy in such profession; by extensive the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself :- assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Hope; elpis, el-pece'; from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstract or concrete) or confidence :- faith, hope.

Love; agape, ag-ah'-pay; from Greek 25 (agapao); love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast :- (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.

By this happening this way, Faith would clearly be removed from the table for others to have by seeing this happen according to this doctrine. YES it will be seen…

Hope would also be removed as well for the same reasons and even more so.
And who would want to Love, have affection for a GOD who would cause the untimely death of the people who died at the hands of unmanned and unpiloted vehicles and aircraft initiated by an act of GOD that has been awaited for by Christianity for centuries

We have faith in believing that our salvation is based on the Word of GOD and this coupled with hope makes it all the more desired.
However, the picture of removing every blood bought and paid for child of GOD in this particular way is actually an act of terror…

That is not God’s Way

If that's the way you say it would happen pre trib, then why would it be any diffrent at pre wrath? why would planes not be falling out of the sky then etc.?