Christians, War, and Violence

[Peter J Barban]

Loving your enemies sometimes mean making a whip out of chords and violently driving them away from the temple!

Yes, Jesus used violence and/or the threat of violence
John 2
13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business.” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house will consume me.”

 

[truefiction1]

1. The NT does not condemn soldiers or police officers, so it seems their work is as moral a butchers, bakers and candlestick makers. Even when Israel was occupied by Rome, Jesus did not condemn the foot soldiers of the empire.

2. Imagine a Christian nation of all who followed your views. There would be no police or military. How long would such a nation last?

3. You may be brave enough to allow your family to suffer for your beliefs, but is that voiding your duties to protect and provide for them? Should you force them to suffer for your beliefs, if they do not agree?

Christ comes before family, so if we have to follow the example of Lot (in the Old Testament) and jeopardize the safety of our families because we follow Christ, then so be it (This means that yes, we might have to protect a Jewish family by giving them sanctuary within our home when Nazi Gestapo are seeking to arrest them for the "crime" of being of the Hebrew race, for example).

But the matter of military service and police work is of such a nature that it can be performed in the service of Christ, because in an evil world, civil leaders must often make the hard choice between the lesser of two evils. Waging war when necessary and the imprisonment of dangerous criminals (and deterring crime by enforcing penalties for committing crime) is usually the lesser of evils.

In our own personal face-to-face encounters, on the other hand, we may be called by the Holy Spirit to suffer persecution without responding in the worldly way.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Paradoxically, to reject all violence is to objectively embrace anarchy.

Anyone who is against all violence must necessarily be anti-state because every state is based on the foundation of violent force to compel order. Without the threat of violence, there would be no taxation, law, justice, peace, or freedom.

Significantly, the New Testament is not against all violence nor is it antistate and in fact, tells Christians to live in harmony with the state.

The state, with its threat of force (re. military and police), is endorsed as God's servant for order.

 

[createdtoworship]

Actually, "resisting the devil" if reviewing the passages in Greek or Strong's Concordance...

Devil could also mean an evil person. And resist may involve violence or force - ie, using violence / force to drive away an evil person.

Jesus also used violence to drive away the merchants from the temple if you review the passages in Strong's Concordance.

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you" may not always mean dealing with spirits but also actual persons.

I wouldn't say that that verse is talking about self defense. (resisting the devil), I believe that is a spiritual resisting. For example resisting the addiction of sin. Satan will flee if a child of God repents. But other places talk about self defense.

 

[createdtoworship]

You mean Christianity and its "freedom"?

actually if you read the pamphlet attached to that post, you will see that it protects all religions in america, including muslim. As long as they aren't extremist muslim, and into sharia law or killing infidels. I believe only a small minority of muslim do that.

 

[Dave L]

Luke 22:36

"He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one."

Wasn't this because he (Jesus) was to die at the Cross. So he rebuked not because of the action but because of the timing.

Jesus had to be numbered with the transgressors. So the two swords provided evidence he was a transgressor, though falsely accused. Especially after Peter cut off Manchus' ear.

 

[Dave L]

The crucifixion is part of God's plan. It must be allowed to happen.

On the other hand, Jesus commanded His disciples to buy swords.

Is Martyrdom God's Will for every Christian who finds themselves in a deadly situation??

Jesus had to be numbered with the transgressors. So the two swords provided evidence he was a transgressor, though falsely accused. Especially after Peter cut off Manchus' ear.

 

[timewerx]

NT does not condone violence in any form.

I think you missed this in the Bible:

From John 2:15 (Jesus driving away Merchants at the temple)

"He drove out...."

Strong's Greek (1544) ἐκβάλλω

to cast out; to drive out; to send out;

1. with the included notion of more or less violence;

John 2:15 Greek Text Analysis
Strong's Greek: 1544. ἐκβάλλω (ekballo) -- I throw, cast, put out, banish, bring forth, produce

 

[Dave L]

Loving your enemies sometimes mean making a whip out of chords and violently driving them away from the temple!

Killing enemies you are supposed to love?

 

[Dave L]

I think you missed this in the Bible:

From John 2:15 (Jesus driving away Merchants at the temple)

"He drove out...."

Strong's Greek (1544) ἐκβάλλω

to cast out; to drive out; to send out;

1. with the included notion of more or less violence;

John 2:15 Greek Text Analysis
Strong's Greek: 1544. ἐκβάλλω (ekballo) -- I throw, cast, put out, banish, bring forth, produce

War?

 

[timewerx]

Killing enemies you are supposed to love?

Only as a last option. It shows you care even if you're trying to defend yourself or others.

 

[Dave L]

Only as a last option. It shows you care even if you're trying to defend yourself or others.

Killing is sin if Jesus tells you not to.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

So I do not serve in the military or become a police officer whose life depends on doing the opposite of these. If an intruder tries to kill me or my family, I would rather we die upholding Jesus’ words than disobey only to suffer death from old age. Any alternative views on this?

Do you honestly believe this or are you trying to provoke?

 

[Dave L]

Do you honestly believe this or are you trying to provoke?

I was a civilian conscientious objector in the Vietnam War era and believe true discipleship is found in non-violence as I presented in the OP.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't believe in ethical absolutes like that. I would never say a Christian should not defend themselves.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

I was a civilian conscientious objector in the Vietnam War era and believe true discipleship is found in non-violence as I presented in the OP.

Thank you for your honest reply.

 

[Dave L]

I don't believe in ethical absolutes like that. I would never say a Christian should not defend themselves.

You need to support this with scripture. In Acts they defended themselves vocally. But always fled violence even to the point of exile.

 

[RDKirk]

Didn't Christ live in a violent world?

And didn't he say he came with a sword?

That sword is His, not ours.

 

[FireDragon76]

You need to support this with scripture. In Acts they defended themselves vocally. But always fled violence even to the point of exile.

If you coerce people to not defend themselves and they are killed, then you are culpable in their deaths.

I believe in peace too, who doesn't? But legalism is the wrong way to get there.

 

[Dave L]

If you coerce people to not defend themselves and they are killed, then you are culpable in their deaths.

I believe in peace too, who doesn't? But legalism is the wrong way to get there.

It depends on your motive for rejecting violence. Obedience to Christ = non violence. Disobedience to Christ = violence.

 

[Hollow Man]

Jesus also said, live by the sword, die by the sword.

Matthew 26:52
52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

A good rule of thumb is, if you find yourself having to take Christ's words out of context, you've lost the argument.