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I thought it was obvious given the way I said it and the reference I made but I will take it under advisement....not sure how it will help given how poorly some here have read my posts but considering your advice nonethelessThen you might consider doing as I do when I joke and state that you are just razzing or joking. I am not a mind reader.
And your source of that information is where?
Watch out using Jewish extra-biblical writings for there is much in the way of tailored falsities with a purpose in them. Those writings are the works of those who resisted Christianity and parts of some of those works are clever attempts to confuse Christians while pretending to be amicable to Christianity. As one who was encouraged from youth on my mother's knee and up to begin learning about the languages and the history i have been made aware of so much treachery in such writings that i would be hard pressed to speak of all of them without leaving much out.
really? I've been waiting two days now and you refuse....then ask me to defend something I didn't say....seems to me you have had plenty of time. Ah well, I'm still waiting and anxious to see the correction you want to offer of the things I said that you just repeated as if I never said them. Please do go on...Yes, you showed me why you thought me to be speaking contradictory but refuse to allow me to present evidence from the Scriptures that you are mistaken.
not at all...my point was that the HS indwelling is one form or definition of temple, as in the dwelling place of God. Which is a beautiful picture of God's relationship with the believer who is following God. You see, the dwelling place of God is to be a place/house of prayer and since the believer is to pray without ceasing what we see in the analogy is that the believer is to be in constant fellowship with God.When I do you accuse me of not addressing your point. What you really mean is that all you want to hear from me is, "I agree."
Remember when I said I expected more from you that to twist my words and contradict yourself? That is because you and I were getting along just fine and having a wonderful discussion up to that point. Now you refuse to address issues and twist what is said and contradict yourself then accuse me with no evidence of me being what changed. IOW's when we were getting along you were discussing scripture without contradiction and without false accusations. It is not me who changed, but you which is why I expected more from you. And before you try to return to the "me being the problem argument", I told you long ago that I disagreed with you on some things but that did nothing at all to hurt our getting along.And this applies to what you said in your post 438, also.
It is not my desire to offend you. The woman I thought you might be who lives in Germany and myself got along real good. Not many people could get along with her but after a brief brush she and i ended up getting along just fine. Perhaps that will happen with you. I hope so.
Again, I ask...wow so little understanding of context here it hurts but alas this too is off topic and I think it is time for the prideful arrogant false accusations of my character and understanding to stop as per God's commands and to get back to topic.
where do you get the idea that that is what I think or implied when I said nothing at all about works vs. grace or anything else related to the topic....that discussion was between you and another poster so why would you apply someone else's comments to me as if I said them? Ah well, I have called you out on that type of thing before and you ignored it to accuse me of all kinds of nasty things.Again, I ask...
Why, according to your thinking? We must end up saving ourselves in the end by works? Why do you feel that the Cross alone can not really save us?
If that's not what you think? Its what you have implied so far. Explain, please.
it is a bit too much to try to address all of that at once, so please bear with me as I explain as best I can what I see as at the root of our confusion.really? I've been waiting two days now and you refuse....then ask me to defend something I didn't say....seems to me you have had plenty of time. Ah well, I'm still waiting and anxious to see the correction you want to offer of the things I said that you just repeated as if I never said them. Please do go on... not at all...my point was that the HS indwelling is one form or definition of temple, as in the dwelling place of God. Which is a beautiful picture of God's relationship with the believer who is following God. You see, the dwelling place of God is to be a place/house of prayer and since the believer is to pray without ceasing what we see in the analogy is that the believer is to be in constant fellowship with God.
You disagree because the temple is not singular but plural or something like that and you further disagree because temple can have more than one meaning which you also disagree with by showing multiple meanings to the word temple.
For this I have waited 2 days for you to clarify your position and all I got is false accusations...please do explain where I am wrong and please make sure to specify with scriptures since I provided many passages that testified to the truth of what I am saying.
Remember when I said I expected more from you that to twist my words and contradict yourself? That is because you and I were getting along just fine and having a wonderful discussion up to that point. Now you refuse to address issues and twist what is said and contradict yourself then accuse me with no evidence of me being what changed. IOW's when we were getting along you were discussing scripture without contradiction and without false accusations. It is not me who changed, but you which is why I expected more from you. And before you try to return to the "me being the problem argument", I told you long ago that I disagreed with you on some things but that did nothing at all to hurt our getting along.
That is a good job of explaining your stand that you have done in this post. Thank you.Paul was convinced by the Church of James to go back into the Temple (with some of the church believers) to go through a purification ritual (which was mocking the efficacy of the Cross). These Jewish believers were reverting back to Judaism under the Law! They were doing what Hebrews 6 speaks against!
Acts 21:20b-24 tells us believers in Jerusalem were quickly becoming apostate....
“You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed,
and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed
that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from
Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our
customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,
23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us (believers!) who
have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites
and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then
everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that
you yourself are living in obedience to the law. "
That purification rite was to be climaxed with a BLOOD SACRIFICE! Jews in the church of Jerusalem were crucifying Jesus afresh like Hebrews 6 warned against!!
The animal blood rituals of the Law only represented the reality of the Cross! By these Jewish believers returning to their old cherished customs under the Law? They were totally missing understanding the Cross of Christ! Hebrews was written to the Church in Jerusalem! That is why we see Hebrews 6:4-6! Its was a warning to those who were maturing in grace about their terrible apostasy!
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have
tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have
tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their
loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting
him to public disgrace." (animal sacrifices in the Temple!)
Hebrews was written to warn those who were maturing in Christ in Jerusalem to not waste their time pleading with the spiritually psychotic apostate Jewish believers who were saved, but have chosen a false path of sentimental Law worship! They could not be brought to repentance - change their thinking about their apostasy! No more than you can get a Catholic who has believed in Christ,m but insists upon the churches dogma! They are spiritually psychotic! God is not will to lose anyone. As long as they believed in Jesus they will be saved! With NOTHING to show for the time after they became saved... wood, hay... and stubble! They will have no rewards in eternity. They will be ashamed when they appear before the Lord.
Only believers who do God's will will reign with Christ. Many.... many... many will be in resurrection bodies but will not be allowed to be given the rewards of authority to share in God;s nature as they reign with Christ. Jesus warned... "Only a few (out of many) will find it." The "broad and wide way" refers to the many denominations and other pseudo spirituality realms that the majority will seek in their religiosity!
Catholics will be resurrected (not all). There will be Pentecostals resurrected (not all)..... and many other sects and denominations that speak of Jesus, and have believed Jesus died on the Cross for their sins! But, after they were saved? Their flesh won, and they ended up becoming losers in the spiritual warfare.
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not
believe will be condemned." Mk 16:16
Jesus was speaking about the coming baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was plainly seen when the Church age began. Now the baptism reveals inwardly to the believer that they are saved. Then... demonic apostasy wages war for their soul. Only the truth will make one free from such a conflict.
That is how all those who end up becoming apostate once knew they were saved to begin with! That is why they believe Jesus is real! And, can be nutty as a fruit cake!
lol I didn't think it was necessary since you provided them for me by way of disagreeing by agreeing....oh well, you are supposedly explaining how the temple/different buildings and the temple/Christ and the temple/the place of prayer and the temple/dwelling place of God etc. are all the same temple so that context is not necessary for us to know what temple is being talked about....you know, like you claimed they were all the same thing but then showed different meanings. I mean here is the thing...I do not always post passages that seem pretty common, ordinary passages when talking to people who are supposedly learned in scripture. For example, when I am talking to someone who supposedly is well versed and studied in scripture and I say, "scripture says that all have sinned and come short of the gospel" I don't see any reason to cut and paste the passage into the text because it is such a common passage. I have taken this approach because of the studies God has called me into. You see, if I post every single passage reference that applies to the topic it becomes more than anyone but me is willing to look into. Some things in scripture are just so well documented that learned people should know them without me quoting a dozen or more passages to support it. Like for example, the notion of temple....it should be painfully obvious that there are more than one temples given scripture talking about the rebuilding of temple, Christ being the temple, the body....etc. If you needed all the passages why did you talk about the same ones I would have used to defend what I said? You know it is very curious that you disagree in the first place given that everything you said was in agreement and every passage you posted supported what I said....do you still want me to find a dozen or so scriptures to back up my claim? I will if you want....I really thought you knew more scripture than to require that but if you are not so learned in scripture as I thought I would be happy to find the passages and list them. I do sometimes on these boards get into trouble by giving people the benefit of the doubt in things like their personal relationship with God and their understanding of scripture especially those that try to put others down for their "lack of knowledge" even when that is unfounded.it is a bit too much to try to address all of that at once, so please bear with me as I explain as best I can what I see as at the root of our confusion.
You spoke about there being many kinds of temples but you never provided Scriptural proof that your comment was any more than assumption.
hum...nothing to focus a comment on? I said that there were several different means to the word temple and the only way to know which was being talked about was to look at the context. The focus should have been on how context clarifies which temple we are talking about which would be different for every passage we wanted to look at.Therefore you gave me nothing to focus a comment upon.
wow, you don't even know that passage especially after I did post the passage...interesting from someone so "learned"....there are several references to them, do you want them all? I Kings 8; Matthew 21:13; Isaiah 56:7; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46 I really can't believe you have never read these passages......how very odd from a learned and studied man.You generalized about a house of prayer but provided no references for your conclusions which I could look up and investigate for myself in order to know if I agree or disagree.
lol listen to yourself here...you assume that you are the only one who understands spiritual things...why would you make such an assumption? Seriously that is crazy boastful and arrogant and sinful. And yes, you are contradicting yourself but that is easy to do when one makes such assumptions without cause.And so in that environment I proceeded to continue with the Scriptural ground work necessary before anyone could understand the things I understand. But because it takes time to build a house and I cannot show you what is on the third floor until I have established the foundation and all other structure which supports that third floor, you felt as if I was completely ignoring your words and just going off my own direction. And when I try to sooth that by putting small pieces of the structure before you for which I have not had time to lay the foundation as yet, I appear to you to be contradicting myself.
lol Do you want to hear about patience? I have a lot of stories I can share with you from the amount of time I put into study and waiting for God to speak to me to the people I deal with everyday. Even you sir are a test of patience when you make assumptions of being some special spiritual prodigy when all you offer is milk that you yourself contradict from one post to the next. How about a discussion about the meat of scripture...or are you so spiritual you are not yet ready for such a discussion?We live in a world that wants everything to be quick and conveniently placed in a nutshell, else most do not have the patience to bear with it that they can eventually reap the benefit. Unfortunately not everything works well in that 'I want it now' way. Many things in life require some patience and time to lay the proper elements which are needed before a thing can be correctly deciphered by the mind. And there is not enough room in one post to state all of the necessary elements for understanding certain subjects. Thus on such subjects I build that necessary structure via many posts, seeking to stay focused on my main point so that it stands a chance of being established. And that does not work well with people in this generation. But there is nothing I can do to change that. Only the readers commitment to patience and a gradual line of reason can bear certain kinds of valuable fruit.
where do you get the idea that that is what I think or implied when I said nothing at all about works vs. grace or anything else related to the topic....that discussion was between you and another poster so why would you apply someone else's comments to me as if I said them? Ah well, I have called you out on that type of thing before and you ignored it to accuse me of all kinds of nasty things.
Let me add this...I know better than to speak about the topic of works vs. grace on this thread as per what scripture says because the hot bed of emotions on the topic keeps people like those that are actively posting here from actually listening to what is being said and what God wants us to know about the topic. For this reason I guarantee I said nothing about the topic and on top of that, it is off topic which is a forum violation.
”razzelflabben post 448” said:lol I didn't think it was necessary since you provided them for me by way of disagreeing by agreeing....oh well, you are supposedly explaining how the temple/different buildings and the temple/Christ and the temple/the place of prayer and the temple/dwelling place of God etc. are all the same temple so that context is not necessary for us to know what temple is being talked about....you know, like you claimed they were all the same thing but then showed different meanings.
This is the point we disagree on. My point is that all of the temples of Israel which are not evil temples are all but shadows of the one temple which is the body of Christ. And as I said once before, this is why we never see more than one of those temples in existence at any one time throughout the history of ancient Israel.”razzelflabben post 448” said:Like for example, the notion of temple....it should be painfully obvious that there are more than one temples given scripture talking about the rebuilding of temple, Christ being the temple, the body....etc.
”razzelflabben post 448” said:hum...nothing to focus a comment on? I said that there were several different means to the word temple and the only way to know which was being talked about was to look at the context. The focus should have been on how context clarifies which temple we are talking about which would be different for every passage we wanted to look at.
Let's do an experiment shall we, to show you how silly your claim here is....I'll shortcut it so that you get the point since you are apparently having problems with that....In order for me to do what you asked me to do I would have to list all 191 passages in the KJV that mention the word temple. (the number 191 comes from this search BibleGateway - : temple) You would then have to go through the entire 191 passage to show that in every single case the exact same temple is being talked about. Now cutting and pasting that entire list is more than this thread can handle but I am anxious for you to go through the entire list and show how they are all talking about the exact same temple since you already confessed they aren't....enjoy your task that you asked me to give you.
wow, you don't even know that passage especially after I did post the passage...interesting from someone so "learned"....there are several references to them, do you want them all? I Kings 8; Matthew 21:13; Isaiah 56:7; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46 I really can't believe you have never read these passages......how very odd from a learned and studied man.
no need to backtrack I remember the post....what I said was that your method of getting to the conclusion you did was wrong and you needed to be careful about such things. There was no defending anything or anyone other than a solid method of coming to the conclusions that we do. Something that I challenged you on previously which meant that it did apply to our discussion.Please.... backtrack to the point where you jumped in on my post not addressed to you. Since you responded as if I was addressing you? I assumed at that point that you must have been the one who made the assertion that I challenged. It was not addressed to you, but you defended it as if it were. That's where the problem began.
If you do not know how to back track yet.... notice the little upward arrow next to your name in the quote box. Click it. And, keep clicking the others on till it takes you to a post not addressed to you. You by mistake jumped in where it did not pertain to you, and assumed I was talking to you. It was Buzz's previous comments I was addressing.
lol...by saying ALL the temples of Israel you start off contradicting yourself. Oh well, on to the new topic you want to bring into the discussion...that of evil temples...you are the only one who said anything about evil temples and this is the first time you brought it up for discussion.I cut out the self-defense stuff and tried to place in only what really relates to the point.
This is the point we disagree on. My point is that all of the temples of Israel which are not evil temples are all but shadows of the one temple which is the body of Christ. And as I said once before, this is why we never see more than one of those temples in existence at any one time throughout the history of ancient Israel.
this doesn't affect what I said at all in any way. I said nothing at all about why there were different meanings to the word temple or what those were. In fact, I assumed that a learned person in the word would already know the what's and why. You know, giving you the benefit of the doubt since you seem to have a genuine faith in God. I can always be wrong I guess, but when someone says they genuinely believe and/or study the word of God I generally assume that to be true rather than falsely accuse them as you are doing with me. In fact, I believe accusing otherwise is against forum rules.It is OK to see that those temples were each one built at different points in time but we need to realize that was only because Israel's unfaithfulness kept resulting in their previous temple being torn down or left to the wild animals and the elements to waste them away.
that is a totally different discussion than the one you and I are currently having. Let's finish this discussion we are having before starting another one.What should we learn form that? It is a warning example to us not to take the body of Christ for granted by resorting back to sin in either passive or direct hard nose defiance of God because we can lose access to that temple which is Christ's body and return to our old bondage, even as those of ancient Israel lost access to their physical temple at different points in time and went into bondage.
again, off topic...our discussion at this point is limited to the claims I made and you challenged. To repeat the claims you challenged just so you don't claim you missed them.And it is important to remember concerning that bondage which ancient Israel kept falling back into for unfaithfulness, that only a small remnant ever returned from that bondage at any time. That is how it also happens for us. The picture created there is God's warning example to us and we are fools if we do not heed it.
It has no bearing on what you want to discuss but has everything to do with what I said that you took offense to. If you want to talk about something different then you need to present the new topic and ask me if I want to discuss it with you not ask me to be a mind reader.A man having temples located at either side of his head next to his eyes (as was included in your BibleGateWay reference) has absolutely no bearing on what we are discussing.
lol now you add another temple meaning to what you previously said....lolThose temples are the Hebrew word, “raqqah”, which merely means, 'thinness, i.e. the side of the head.' It is an entirely different Hebrew word. There is no correlation. And the only temple there is for us is the one spoken of at Isaiah 56:7 wherein all peoples who worship God dwell together. I do not know why you wish to complicate matters by claiming there are many different temples. There is one God and there is one temple. One God only needs one temple. And that one temple sets figuratively atop mount Zion. There is only one mount Zion in the spiritual even as there is only one physical mount Zion. If you find me annoying, just remember, 'Everybody has to be good at something.'
Right there you are showing treachery toward me. You know full well that over the course of time there were temples built by different people but only ever one in existence at any one time.lol...by saying ALL the temples of Israel you start off contradicting yourself.
no need to backtrack I remember the post....what I said was that your method of getting to the conclusion you did was wrong and you needed to be careful about such things. There was no defending anything or anyone other than a solid method of coming to the conclusions that we do. Something that I challenged you on previously which meant that it did apply to our discussion.
As I also said, you two are so emotionally charged that any discussion on OSAS or grace vs works will not be heard. You really do need to set aside your emotionalism when it comes to the word of God. It isn't as hard to do as you might think.
I was afraid to tell her that. LOL. But I wanted to.You are totally off base and are now building your case upon your original erroneous presumption. Its one good reason why Paul warned the church to not allow a woman to take authority over a man by teaching. There is a dogmatism that women have that when wrong is dangerous to try to reason with. You are not a women teaching little boys here. Deal with it. I am not going to bother with you.
well there were more temples than one at any given time, even today there are multiple temples but only one temple at a time of the Living God. But pointing that out to people who seem to forget the basics of scripture is NOT treachery but rather Love. You would do well to learn the difference from the standpoint of Biblical Love.Right there you are showing treachery toward me. You know full well that over the course of time there were temples built by different people but only ever one in existence at any one time.
lol I wasn't wrong and quite frankly there have been things I said that you could "correct" me on as it were, but that the word temple has multiple meanings and we know the intent by looking at context just shows that your determined to both argue and accuse me falsely which brings into question just how mature in Christ you really are since scripture speaks out harshly against both.You do not care about reasoning at all. All you want to do is be right without having to correct where you are wrong.
lol I trust God because He promises to be found by all who seek Him and since I seek Him both diligently and humbly I have nothing to fear. I pray you find the strength to do the same...though I don't foresee it any time soon I do pray that you learn to seek God in diligent seeking after truth with humility rather than the pride you attacked me with.I leave you to God's hands. It is in print in my previous posts when you decide you would prefer truth over just trying to be right for the sake of your pride.
amen, which is why I pray that your eyes are open because you don't have time to insist on the prideful display you have shown me.Too bad because the time left is extremely short.
lol my husband expected this accusation long before this...which by the way, when you study about woman's roles in the Church is says that they are not to usurp their authority over men...a similar warning is given to men....it does not say they are not to teach. In fact, the wife of noble character teaches at the city gates with the men.You are totally off base and are now building your case upon your original erroneous presumption. Its one good reason why Paul warned the church to not allow a woman to take authority over a man by teaching. There is a dogmatism that women have that when wrong is dangerous to try to reason with. You are not a women teaching little boys here. Deal with it. I am not going to bother with you.
news flash: My husband is the first person to ever point out to me that the woman of God is not someone who allows men to belittle her and insult her and the God who calls her. He is the first one who pointed out to me that there was more to the passage about women teaching and that I needed to humble myself enough to study it so that I could be faithful to God's call on my life. But I wouldn't expect either of you to understand that because neither of you show evidence of listening to anything but your own emotional responses to being called to hold to what God says without reading into it what is not there.I was afraid to tell her that. LOL. But I wanted to.
Back in those posts where she spoke of her husband defending her against what you were saying to her I thought to myself that her husband knew what is good for him.
lol my husband expected this accusation long before this...which by the way, when you study about woman's roles in the Church is says that they are not to usurp their authority over men...a similar warning is given to men....it does not say they are not to teach. In fact, the wife of noble character teaches at the city gates with the men.
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