Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

[razzelflabben]

You have not listed what I have said. You have yet only spoken your opinion of what you thought I said.

List the specific things I sad which you found offensive. And state whether I said it to you or to genez or to anyone else. You are not presently telling me enough for me to know what you are talking about.

I don't know what you want then...you accused me of not being willing to think about what you are saying

You accused me of not believing whatever it is that you wanted to talk about without asking me what I believe

You accused me of not being teachable

and these are just some of the things that were said after you quoted me...so if you were accusing genez you need to specify you were talking to someone other than the person you quoted...I could go back through and find some other accusations but right now I am trying to study the promises of God and that is much more interesting.

 

[razzelflabben]

oh, here is another good one that you accused me of...being deceived even though you didn't know what I know or believe and even though God promises to protect me from being deceived.

 

[Buzz_B]

oh, here is another good one that you accused me of...being deceived even though you didn't know what I know or believe and even though God promises to protect me from being deceived.

I honestly am sorry if I have offended you. That is not at all what i desire to do.

 

[razzelflabben]

I honestly am sorry if I have offended you. That is not at all what i desire to do.

I believe you did Not intend to offend but you also have to understand why it was offensive to speak lies while claiming to be speaking the truth of God. That is offensive not just to me but to God.

Now, we can do one of two things...we can have a pleasant conversation or we can be done but either way if you continue to speak lies I will call you out on it.

 

[GenemZ]

List those things in your next post of which you claim, quote, "you have repeatedly accused me of things that are false...", unquote.

Don't worry, you cannot offend me. Go right ahead and list the specific things I said which you believe were as falsely accusing you, and lets talk about them.

There is no sense to just making empty statements as you have done there. Put the proof out in the open where we can discuss it.

She sets herself up for this. And, you bite the bait. We tend to become self centered and do not realize we become no longer Christ centered.

If we were taught properly we would stop dwelling upon our state of being. Its what happens when no one is teaching what we need to know from the Word that will get our minds off ourselves. Its rampant today. This place can easily become a lonely hearts club.

How is the conversation you two are having transforming you more into the image of Christ?

 

[razzelflabben]

She sets herself up for this. And, you bite the bait. We tend to become self centered and do not realize we become no longer Christ centered.

If we were taught properly we would stop dwelling upon our state of being. Its what happens when no one is teaching what we need to know from the Word that will get our minds off ourselves. Its rampant today. This place can easily become a lonely hearts club.

How is the conversation you two are having transforming you more into the image of Christ?

lol how are your false accusations transforming anyone into the image of Christ? You have accused me more than the other poster and all those accusations have been lies....who is the author of lies? John 8:44

 

[GenemZ]

Here is something that can truly help and break the cycle that has been oscillating here in this thread.

Recorded to MP3 on CD's lessons given by a pastor who always studied the Word of God daily, and taught his congregation daily.


Child Abuse
• Ephesians (1990)
Series 412.
Lesson numbers 1220–1234
Over 15 hours of in depth teaching from the Word of God.

Here is another...

Child Abuse “Unfit Parents and Tragic Children.
Series 376.
• Spiritual Dynamics (1992)
Lessons 31–57
Over 27 hours of in depth teaching.

How much would this cost you?
Nothing.. or, you may choose to donate. But, nothing is asked for.

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely
on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for any of our material.
No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a
believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination
of Bible doctrine.​

Where to contact?

Contact / Ordering

Post Office Box 460829 Houston, Texas 77056-8829


(713) 621-3740


Hours of Operation: Monday–Friday 9:00am–4:00pm (Central)


Phone Hours: Monday–Friday 8:00am–3:00pm (Central)


(For R. B. Thieme III audio and video lessons contact.. R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries — Ordering and Contact Information​

I know this series has helped believers who suffered through child abuse.

 

[razzelflabben]

Here is something that can truly help and break the cycle that has been oscillating here in this thread.

Recorded to MP3 on CD's lessons given by a pastor who always studied the Word of God daily, and taught his congregation daily.


Child Abuse
• Ephesians (1990)
Series 412.
Lesson numbers 1220–1234
Over 15 hours of in depth teaching from the Word of God.

Here is another...

Child Abuse “Unfit Parents and Tragic Children.
Series 376.
• Spiritual Dynamics (1992)
Lessons 31–57
Over 27 hours of in depth teaching.

How much would this cost you?
Nothing.. or, you may choose to donate. But, nothing is asked for.

R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries is a grace ministry and operates entirely
on voluntary contributions. There is no price list for any of our material.
No money is requested. When gratitude for the Word of God motivates a
believer to give, he has the privilege of contributing to the dissemination
of Bible doctrine.​

Where to contact?

Contact / Ordering

Post Office Box 460829 Houston, Texas 77056-8829


(713) 621-3740


Hours of Operation: Monday–Friday 9:00am–4:00pm (Central)


Phone Hours: Monday–Friday 8:00am–3:00pm (Central)


(For R. B. Thieme III audio and video lessons contact Berachah Church) ​

I know this series has helped believers who suffered through child abuse.

heck, that is nothing time wise when it comes to study....none the less I am still waiting for you to teach me how false accusations and lies transform anyone into the image of Christ...please be sure to include passages since you have accused me of not learning from you.

 

[razzelflabben]

since genez isn't willing to answer the question, let me

Anytime someone sins God is NOT glorified and no one is encouraged to grow in the Lord and be transformed into the image of Christ. However, when we obey scripture growth occuses and transformation happens. 2 Corinthians 5:18 tells us that it is our duty as believers to reconcile one with another when someone sins against another person. That is why the conversation between Buzz and I was profitable for the transformation that is important to the life of the believer, because in it there was an attempt to live out Christ through reconciliation of sin that occured.

Unfortunately some people are so prideful that they refuse to reconcile any of their offenses and that not only prevents spiritual growth but stifles the witness of our Savior's Love one for another.

May you find joy in a godly sorrow as you crucify the old man and the sinful ways that lead to destruction.

 

[razzelflabben]

Now, Buzz...I still don't really know what it is that you wanted to talk about when it comes to the temple and what I said.

It appears that everything went south when I posted this passage...1 Corinthians 6:19...to which you said something about singular and plural...and that the passage is talking about Christ.

Let me point out to you once again (hopefully we have moved past your original objection to context) that the context shows very clearly that the body being talked about here is the individual person who is cleansed by the blood which is by grace. (verses 18-20) But we need to look beyond that into the context of the totality of scripture as well...that is why I offered all those passages about the indwelling HS. The context of the totality of scripture says that it is the cleansed individual being talked about here.

But we aren't quite done....remember this whole thing started when I said there were different meanings to the word temple and context would tell us which was intended...the definitions in scripture that I can think of at the moment are 1. the building of which there are several...2. the body of Christ...3. this one of the individual who is cleansed by God. and the 4. you pointed out about the sides of the head.

So how do we know which is intended without context? For example when we read about the temple and know it is a building, is it the temple that Solomon built? we can't know without context. So context is vital which is the point I was making.

 

[Buzz_B]

Now, Buzz...I still don't really know what it is that you wanted to talk about when it comes to the temple and what I said.

It appears that everything went south when I posted this passage...1 Corinthians 6:19...to which you said something about singular and plural...and that the passage is talking about Christ.

Let me point out to you once again (hopefully we have moved past your original objection to context) that the context shows very clearly that the body being talked about here is the individual person who is cleansed by the blood which is by grace. (verses 18-20) But we need to look beyond that into the context of the totality of scripture as well...that is why I offered all those passages about the indwelling HS. The context of the totality of scripture says that it is the cleansed individual being talked about here.

But we aren't quite done....remember this whole thing started when I said there were different meanings to the word temple and context would tell us which was intended...the definitions in scripture that I can think of at the moment are 1. the building of which there are several...2. the body of Christ...3. this one of the individual who is cleansed by God. and the 4. you pointed out about the sides of the head.

So how do we know which is intended without context? For example when we read about the temple and know it is a building, is it the temple that Solomon built? we can't know without context. So context is vital which is the point I was making.

I have been using the context. And what I am trying to get you to see is that the context does support what I am telling you. Lets go start at the beginning of his letter:

1 Corinthians 1:2 "To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours." (Douay-Rheims)

So now you tell me who "you" is in verse 3 there?

3 "Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." (Douay-Rheims)

We could word it: "Grace to (all of) you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Right?

We could clip and paste so that every time "you" was used, it would read:

"Grace to you, (the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours), and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Right?

But in Greek you could not word it: "Grace to thee, and peace from God thy Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ", for no one would know to whom he was talking. Right?

When Paul wants them to know that he means they should apply what he is saying to their individual selves, the Greek has a specific way of doing that, also, which he uses.

Here as follows Paul is directing them individually to look at and examine themselves individually:

1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who distinguisheth thee ? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received ? And if thou hast received, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it ?" (Douay-Rheims)

But in verse 8 Paul returns to addressing them as a group composed of those who are puffed up:

1 Corinthians 4:8 "You are now full; you are now become rich; you reign without us; and I would to God you did reign, that we also might reign with you.' (Douay-Rheims)

But I have seen what you do. You begin ranting that if it applies to the group it has to apply to the individual.

You do not seem to get it that to tell the group that they are a temple of God does not make each individual a temple. It only makes them members of the temple. The temple being greater than any one of them.

You don't need me. If you fervently desire to see, you eventually will see. It is time for you to fight your own demons which are keeping you from seeing. I had to do that before I could see. So why should you not have to? I cannot force understanding on anyone. Just continue on through the entire book using the pattern of evaluation began here above.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have been using the context. And what I am trying to get you to see is that the context does support what I am telling you. Lets go start at the beginning of his letter:

honestly I don't know what you are trying to say because you are still trying to argue that there is only one meaning to the word temple even though you show several meanings. But please do carry on...

1 Corinthians 1:2 "To the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours." (Douay-Rheims)

So now you tell me who "you" is in verse 3 there?

3 "Grace to you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." (Douay-Rheims)

We could word it: "Grace to (all of) you, and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Right?

Lol I have a southern heritage, around here it would be you all or ya ll....but keep in mind that would be those that are sanctified in Christ Jesus.

We could clip and paste so that every time "you" was used, it would read:

"Grace to you, (the church of God that is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, in every place of theirs and ours), and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ." Right?

But in Greek you could not word it: "Grace to thee, and peace from God thy Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ", for no one would know to whom he was talking. Right?

why not? I mean the letter is directed at a specific group of people. I would assume that if someone was talking to me I would know who they are talking to.

When Paul wants them to know that he means they should apply what he is saying to their individual selves, the Greek has a specific way of doing that, also, which he uses.

Here as follows Paul is directing them individually to look at and examine themselves individually:

examine themselves...amen that is something that some here have been asked to do and they refuse to do so...is that what you think I don't get?

1 Corinthians 4:7 "For who distinguisheth thee ? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received ? And if thou hast received, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it ?" (Douay-Rheims)

But in verse 8 Paul returns to addressing them as a group composed of those who are puffed up:

1 Corinthians 4:8 "You are now full; you are now become rich; you reign without us; and I would to God you did reign, that we also might reign with you.' (Douay-Rheims)

But I have seen what you do. You begin ranting that if it applies to the group it has to apply to the individual.

not even close to what I did but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. What I said is that it was to all the sanctified as in every single one of them....individuals and form a group. Now keep in mind that I supported this notion both in context and in the totality of scripture. So please go on just make sure that as you do you represent what I said correctly.

You do not seem to get it that to tell the group that they are a temple of God does not make each individual a temple. It only makes them members of the temple. The temple being greater than any one of them.

I'm saying it is both. You cannot have a group of believers being a temple if none in the group is a temple. That is just how it works.

You don't need me. If you fervently desire to see, you eventually will see. It is time for you to fight your own demons which are keeping you from seeing. I had to do that before I could see. So why should you not have to? I cannot force understanding on anyone. Just continue on through the entire book using the pattern of evaluation began here above.

what am I missing....I say it is both because that is how things like that work, you say I am wrong it cannot be both....why can't it be both. Paul is talking to each individual and the group as a whole. We know this by the wording...I have to run now but maybe when I get back we can look again at the context and what you are missing there.

 

[Buzz_B]

honestly I don't know what you are trying to say because you are still trying to argue that there is only one meaning to the word temple even though you show several meanings. But please do carry on... Lol I have a southern heritage, around here it would be you all or ya ll....but keep in mind that would be those that are sanctified in Christ Jesus. why not? I mean the letter is directed at a specific group of people. I would assume that if someone was talking to me I would know who they are talking to. examine themselves...amen that is something that some here have been asked to do and they refuse to do so...is that what you think I don't get? not even close to what I did but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. What I said is that it was to all the sanctified as in every single one of them....individuals and form a group. Now keep in mind that I supported this notion both in context and in the totality of scripture. So please go on just make sure that as you do you represent what I said correctly. I'm saying it is both. You cannot have a group of believers being a temple if none in the group is a temple. That is just how it works. what am I missing....I say it is both because that is how things like that work, you say I am wrong it cannot be both....why can't it be both. Paul is talking to each individual and the group as a whole. We know this by the wording...I have to run now but maybe when I get back we can look again at the context and what you are missing there.

Forget it. IMHO You are just playing a game.

I wish you the best but I do not care to speak with you any more. It seems fruitless.

 

[razzelflabben]

That didn't take as long as I expected and though I will be away from the computer most of the day, let's look more at context..1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

who is this talking to, the group or the individual who is committing sexual sins?

19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies


In fact, just above this the discussion is about "I" so obviously the topic is the individual. It's about context and as per the previous passages presented, the totality of scripture bears this out.

 

[razzelflabben]

Forget it. IMHO You are just playing a game.

I wish you the best but I do not care to speak with you any more. It seems fruitless.

How am I just playing a game? What would make you say such a thing? Just because I had to run for a few moments you think I am playing a game? Or is it because I didn't say what you wanted me to say that you think I am playing a game? I don't get it. I am being very serious here the context is clear.

Now as to the greek...my husband argues with your interpretation which I could get into but it is all meaningless when we consider the context itself.

 

[GenemZ]

Forget it. IMHO You are just playing a game.

I wish you the best but I do not care to speak with you any more. It seems fruitless.

By their "fruitless" you will know them.

She needs to get hid in some sound teaching and transformed by the Spirit out of her attention seeking mode she is stuck in... Then she turns the tables on the other to make them feel they are the cause for the conflict.

 

[Der Alte]

...the one and only time a follower of Jesus uses a sword in the New Testament Jesus rebuked the guy using it and healed the person he struck. I think if you want to use the Bible to support us owning a weapon then we'd have to follow Jesus example and do like He did. I'd also ask: where did Jesus ever mention His followers owning guns in the Bible?
tulc(would be interested in that last bit most of all)

I was hoping maybe against hope that this thread would eventually get back to the OP but alas it has not so I went back to page one for a post that is on topic. For those who become embroiled in what someone said that offended someone please take it to private conversation. As for the fallacious comment about Jesus not saying anything about His followers owning guns. Of course He didn't because guns would not be invented for about a 1000 years but Jesus did say something about the common self defense weapon of His day, swords.

Matthew 10:34
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Luke 22:36
(36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.​

​

 

[Buzz_B]

By their "fruitless" you will know them.

She needs to get hid in some sound teaching and transformed by the Spirit out of her attention seeking mode she is stuck in... Then she turns the tables on the other to make them feel they are the cause for the conflict.

I have to agree. But none of us see what we are doing when we are caught up in being excessively self-centered. So she can plead ignorance as did Paul for his sins. That is, up to a point.

 

[Buzz_B]

I was hoping maybe against hope that this thread would eventually get back to the OP but alas it has not so I went back to page one for a post that is on topic. For those who become embroiled in what someone said that offended someone please take it to private conversation. As for the fallacious comment about Jesus not saying anything about His followers owning guns. Of course He didn't because guns would not be invented for about a 1000 years but Jesus did say something about the common self defense weapon of His day, swords.

Matthew 10:34
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Luke 22:36
(36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.​

​

That is true. The gun cannot be called evil for it is but the victim of how one chooses to use it. It cannot be anything else for it has no power of choice.

 

[GenemZ]

...the one and only time a follower of Jesus uses a sword in the New Testament Jesus rebuked the guy using it and healed the person he struck. I think if you want to use the Bible to support us owning a weapon then we'd have to follow Jesus example and do like He did. I'd also ask: where did Jesus ever mention His followers owning guns in the Bible?
tulc(would be interested in that last bit most of all)

Tulc.... If the police came to the door with an arrest warrant for your cousin who had been living at your house?.... and you, having a gun permit (legal) decided to take a shot at the arresting officer? Would not Jesus rebuke you, too?

Likewise.... Jesus warned Peter... "they who take up the sword, will die by the sword", was in reference to Peter acting like a professional criminal. It had nothing to do with arming oneself.

Did you not read? Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword. Instead, he told Peter to put it back in its holder.

Jesus got Peter off from being arrested for a criminal act by healing the guard's ear miraculously.