CHRISTIANOPHOBIA - anti Christian hatred.

fejao · Jan 8, 2005

It is quite ironic how this thread is about Christianophobia, this thread you could maybe suggest as an example of why there is Christianophobia

Consider the biblical principle of sowing and reaping. What you show from your heart is what you will reap

Fejao x

ahab · Jan 9, 2005

Consider the biblical principle of sowing and reaping. What you show from your heart is what you will reap

Consider this Biblical principle as well or instead of the other Biblical principles we have been discussing.
Or do we have different interpretations of this?

Mustaphile · Jan 9, 2005

ahab said:
Consider this Biblical principle as well or instead of the other Biblical principles we have been discussing.
Or do we have different interpretations of this?

It's pretty simple really ahab. Deal with your own sin and leave other peoples 'sins' for them to deal with. It only affects you if the sin is directed at you, as in if I robbed you, or maimed you, or lied to you. Even then you are called by Christ to simply ask for them to repent and then forgive, and forgive and forgive, ad infinitum.

No homosexual is coming at you and thrusting themselves upon you. Whatever 'sin' they might have to deal with is between them and God. Some think it is a sin and some don't. You can be sure they all think about it very carefully before making a commitment to Christ. When they do make that commitment, they don't need you and your nay-saying to bring condemnation down on them. You attack their hope and undermine their faith. It's rude, disrespectful and disgraceful behaviour. It's disgraces the christian concept of grace. When the secular world can have more grace than christians then something has gone wrong with christians. It's not about the degree of righteousness or holiness. It's about the degree of faith, hope and love we direct towards God. It's not about us transforming ourselves into the likeness of Christ. It's about Christ transforming us from within. We are weak. God is strong. It's in our weakness that God's strength shines through, and the glory is God's, not ours. If we transform ourselves in the likeness of Christ, then we have reason to boast. We don't have reason to boast though do we? It's all glory to God.

fejao · Jan 9, 2005

ahab said:
Consider this Biblical principle as well or instead of the other Biblical principles we have been discussing.
Or do we have different interpretations of this?

Well its your choice Ahab to consider it or reject it, you dont need my permission. I think the concept of sowing and reaping is quite straight forward biblical and spiritual principle,

Proverbs 22:8 He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed.

Therefore in relation to this thread and discussion, if Christians sow hate, bigotry and lies towards certain groups or people in society this is what they will reap. However if they sow love, compassion and hope this is what they will reap. Also see Job 4:9., Proverbs 11:18,19., Hosea 10:12,13., Galatians 6:7,8., Romans 2:6-8., Romans 6:22,23., Romans 8:13.

Fejao x

tulc · Jan 9, 2005

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to fejao again.

Dude! You need to stop writing great posts until I can Rep you again!
tulc(who hates when this happens!)

fejao · Jan 9, 2005

tulc said:
Dude! You need to stop writing great posts until I can Rep you again!
tulc(who hates when this happens!)

Well tulc what you sow is what you will reap my friend !

Fejao x

Heiroglyph · Jan 9, 2005

fejao said:
Well the Lord did say that we would be persecuted for him and I am sure we have all experienced some persecution as Christians. I do feel however that a lot of our persecution is not due to being Christians but due to being marred representations of Christ. We profess to be the living examples of Christ yet, us Christians portray a horrible broken image of the Lord. Our tv stations do not exude the love, kindness nor the meekness of the Lord but that of intolerance, look at me and sometimes blatant hate its no wonder we have persecution. You may not want to debate gay issues, therefore you should not have mentioned the subject knowing how hotly this issue is discussed here. The gay community has such an aversion to Christians and the church, not because of Christ but because of the horrible picture Christians paint of Christ to them, and bascially its our own fault not Christs, not your dogs but ours. If we were true images of Christ I am sure the gay community would embrase our lovley Jesus as a lot do, many would come back to their first love [Jesus]. However because we constantly tell gay people that they will never make the mark, that they are not worthy, that our Jesus cannot accept them until they are "like us", we sell them a lie. Our relationship with God is not dependent on trying harder, giving more, thats a lie. There are no mile markers in our Christian walk, because we cannot be more beloved, more redeemed, or more saved than we are right now [refering to Christians]. Sometimes we deserve the labels of bigots, pharasees, prejudiced. Our goal as in everything is to be an example of Jesus, I am sure the picture would be different to what it is just now, if we did truly look and act like him!

Fejao x

Jesus was as Christlike as anyone can be of course and he was murdered by the intolerant people who hated and feared him. How can you say his followers deserve persecution they receive for not being Christlike, when Christ received and would still today receive the same persecution from the same people? That is a fallacy to think that is Jesus followers were somehow more Christlike that they would be accepted and loved by all.
We know from what happened to Jesus that is not true.

ahab · Jan 9, 2005

Hi Mustaphile,

It is pretty simple. I am not dealing with other peoples sin, only they can deal with it through receiving the grace God gives. I am dealing with the sin other people are promoting in the name of Christians. If they stop promoting it there is no problem is there?
Did make this point in accordance with the scripture you quoted, or at the expense of the ones I quoted? Because when someone teaches falsely in the church they should be corrected and rebuked. All the scripture is usefull.
The truth is they should not be promoting same-sex sex, the truth is we get belssed with the measure we bless, one can't bless another with sin. It is you who attack their hope and undermine their faith because their faith and hope is in Christ Jesus, not sexual gratification and grace reigns through righteouness to bring eternal life through Jesus Chrsit our Lord. what you are doing is playing some scriptures and teachings off against others and understanding neither.
Its love to point out the truth, its frankly dishonest, disgusting and offensive to our God for you to be taking a false a judgmental stand against the truth in favour of the falsehood that the scriptures condemn.
Grace is from God and sin isn’t and until you can grasp that you have no reverence for God. Being Holy and righteous is living set apart from sins including sexual immorality. Paul says in Eph 5 that there shouldn’t even be a hint of sexual immorality with us. Do you agree with this paragraph adn if not why not?
If we are transformed in the likeness of Christ, then we no longer sin and certainly don’t promote it can we?

raphael_aa · Jan 9, 2005

CR0C0DILE said:
Jesus was as Christlike as anyone can be of course and he was murdered by the intolerant people who hated and feared him. How can you say his followers deserve persecution they receive for not being Christlike, when Christ received and would still today receive the same persecution from the same people? That is a fallacy to think that is Jesus followers were somehow more Christlike that they would be accepted and loved by all.
We know from what happened to Jesus that is not true.

You can tell a lot about people by character of those that hate them. Who hated Jesus? The religious establishment, those who thought they had God in their pocket, those to whom the liberty and compassion of Christ were an affront to their way of doing 'business'. Apparently the sinners, the poor, the dispossessed, the disenfranchised and the rejecteed thought He was pretty cool.

Now, as modern christians, we need to examine the character of those who hate us.

We have met the enemy, and they are partly right.

Fire · Jan 9, 2005

From the original post:

A Vatican diplomatic campaign is trying to have "Christianophobia" recognized as an evil that is equal to hatred of Jews and Muslims

-------

Christianophobia means fear of Christians.
Fear of something is not taught as being evil according to the Torah.

This is reminiscent of the dogma of homophobia, Which promotes the view that people don't like homosexuals because they are afraid of them, rather than because they find sodomy offensive.

Is this a case of the church redefining sin & evil so as to maintain the credibility necessary for religious control?

raphael_aa · Jan 9, 2005

Fire said:
From the original post:

A Vatican diplomatic campaign is trying to have "Christianophobia" recognized as an evil that is equal to hatred of Jews and Muslims

-------

Christianophobia means fear of Christians.
Fear of something is not taught as being evil according to the Torah.

This is reminiscent of the dogma of homophobia, Which promotes the view that people don't like homosexuals because they are afraid of them, rather than because they find sodomy offensive.

Is this a case of the church redefining sin & evil so as to maintain the credibility necessary for religious control?

No

ahab · Jan 9, 2005

Hi Fejao,

The concept of sowing and reaping is straightforward, those that live by the sword will die by the sword, those who seek the Kingdom and His righteouness will receive their reward.

Proverbs 22:8 He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed.

And the men of Sodom were wicked Gen 13:13, Lot who was righteouss said "Dont do this wicked thing" Gen 19, expel the wicked man (sexually immoral) from among you 1 Cor 5, (the wicked) homosexual offenders shall not inherit the Kingdom 1 Cor 6:9, the wickedness of men who suppress the truth Rom 1..... men committed indecent acts with other men and received the due penalty for their perversion)
What do you understand by wickedness and righteouness?

I see no scripture that says hate and bigotry is telling those I love their error according to the truth of that scripture, in fact I have already shown you scriptures that tell says I should and even in Gal 6 that the one who sows to please his sinful nature reaps what he sows. The hate and bigotry is something you have mentioned as your reaction to the truth.

Fire · Jan 9, 2005

raphael_aa,

A Vatican diplomatic campaign is trying to have "Christianophobia" recognized as an evil that is equal to hatred of Jews and Muslims

What do you think the motivation is for the Vatican campaign?

raphael_aa · Jan 9, 2005

Fire said:
raphael_aa,

A Vatican diplomatic campaign is trying to have "Christianophobia" recognized as an evil that is equal to hatred of Jews and Muslims

What do you think the motivation is for the Vatican campaign?

Sorry for the brevity of my earlier response. I really have no idea about the vatican's motivations. I was a liitle concerned about the logic of your earlier statemements.

'This is reminiscent of the dogma of homophobia, Which promotes the view that people don't like homosexuals because they are afraid of them, rather than because they find sodomy offensive.'

I would say there are two distince classes here: 1. People who on moral grounds, consider homosexuality a sin, and 2. People who have an irrational fear and hatred of homosexuals. People in class 1 have a right to their beliefs although personally I believe they are in error, but we can agree to disagree. People in class 2 use prejudice and irrationality. People from class 2 are the sort of people who yell things from passing cars and beat up people. Hate crime legislation could legitimately be used against people of class 2.

Now as to christianophobia. Are there 2 classes here? Certainly there are many people who do not hold christian beliefs and who do not do so for very good reasons. More power to them. But are there people who are prejudiced against christianity with an irrational hatred? In my country I don't see it but I wouldn't preclude the possibility. I imagine where christianity is a minority faith just like any minority faith it may find itself victim of prejudice and hate. If it does, that would seem to be a case of 'christianophobia'.

Fire · Jan 9, 2005

raphael_aa said:
I would say there are two distince classes here: 1. People who on moral grounds, consider homosexuality a sin, and 2. People who have an irrational fear and hatred of homosexuals. People in class 1 have a right to their beliefs although personally I believe they are in error, but we can agree to disagree. People in class 2 use prejudice and irrationality. People from class 2 are the sort of people who yell things from passing cars and beat up people. Hate crime legislation could legitimately be used against people of class 2.

I do not agree with your limitation of two classes. I believe that there is a third class of people who have a rational hatred of sodomy.

Now as to christianophobia. Are there 2 classes here? Certainly there are many people who do not hold christian beliefs and who do not do so for very good reasons. More power to them. But are there people who are prejudiced against christianity with an irrational hatred? In my country I don't see it but I wouldn't preclude the possibility. I imagine where christianity is a minority faith just like any minority faith it may find itself victim of prejudice and hate. If it does, that would seem to be a case of 'christianophobia'.

I see the central issue of christianophobia as being fear. Who is afraid, and what are they afraid of? I would think that people who call themselves Christians are expecting a time of trouble. I see this issue as being one of individual reason as apposed to traditional dogma.

fejao · Jan 10, 2005

ahab said:
Hi Fejao,

The concept of sowing and reaping is straightforward, those that live by the sword will die by the sword, those who seek the Kingdom and His righteouness will receive their reward.
And the men of Sodom were wicked Gen 13:13, Lot who was righteouss said "Dont do this wicked thing" Gen 19, expel the wicked man (sexually immoral) from among you 1 Cor 5, (the wicked) homosexual offenders shall not inherit the Kingdom 1 Cor 6:9, the wickedness of men who suppress the truth Rom 1..... men committed indecent acts with other men and received the due penalty for their perversion)
What do you understand by wickedness and righteouness?

I see no scripture that says hate and bigotry is telling those I love their error according to the truth of that scripture, in fact I have already shown you scriptures that tell says I should and even in Gal 6 that the one who sows to please his sinful nature reaps what he sows. The hate and bigotry is something you have mentioned as your reaction to the truth.

Well Ahab as I said in post 102 & post 104 what you sow is what you will reap! You can quote all thoes scriptures all you like as I have said before you will not pull me back into a fruitless converstaion about the biblical standing on homosexuality (Titus 3:9). Also do not put word in my mouth, my reaction to truth is not hate or bigotry!

You are quite correct that if us as believers find a fellow brother in sin we should address this sin, we must address the sin out of concern and love for the person, making sure that we obey the law of Christ in that our actions i.e they should be motivated by love. Gal 8 is just as much taking about examining ourselves as it is about love and concern for another believer. Also we are to help restore the person back to their fullness in Christ we are not to judge them or condem them. I would ask does your previous post fufil this law? Does your comment "(the wicked) homosexuals" come from a heart of love for homosexuals? Does this comment restore someone back to Christ gently or does it drive them away from Christ. Especially since I believe this text does not exist in this grammatical form i.e "(the wicked) homosexuals" in any translation of the bible. However remember God sees our actions and our hearts my friend ! I as a wicked Christian homosexual have no right to judge you my friend and as such I leave that to Christ in his righteousness, so that I may maintain a right attitude towards you as a beloved brother in Christ.

Fejao x

ahab · Jan 10, 2005

Hi Fejao,

So now you dont accept what the scriptures say is wicked? I have said before the truth is found in scripture, the Holy Spirit reminds us of what Jesus said, these guys who wrote the NT were witnesses and were taught by Jesus.

Also do not put word in my mouth, my reaction to truth is not hate or bigotry!

I havent. I have merely stated that the you are writing the words hate and bigotry not me, please dont put words into my mouth!

Yes the scriptures tell us to address the sin, but why not tell Mustaphile, he is the one who is disputing that?

motivated by love.

Yes of course everything we do is in love, but addressing and debating an issue isnt condemning people and you are still talking about condemnation. There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, do you not really believe this? Also the fullness of Christ is that of Christ not us.

Does your comment "(the wicked) homosexuals" come from a heart of love for homosexuals?

Where did I write that exactly? Dont you see that neither I nor the scripture says that. It says the act of same-sex sex is wicked. It doesn't say heterosexuals or homosexuals will not enter the Kingdom, it warns that heterosexual and homosexual offenders wont. Also I am fed up with this reference to all homosexually orientated Christians being active. There are celibate and ex-homosexuals who agree with what the scriptures say. Why are you so biased against other homosexuals and against the word of God. You mentioned wicked, I merely pointed out what the scripture reveal as wicked, now you have taken offense at the scripture again.

Does this comment restore someone back to Christ gently or does it drive them away from Christ.

Christ has already given us the fullness in Him when He was crucified and resurrected and now reigns, we can either remain in Him as the scripture says. If we love Him we obey what He teaches and commands, or we ourselves can move away. restoring is moving nearer to Jesus.

Especially since I believe this text does not exist in this grammatical form i.e "(the wicked) homosexuals" in any translation of the bible.

Now dont believe any of the Bibles have translated wicked correctly either?

However remember God sees our actions and our hearts my friend !

How do you know? Does the scripture tell you and the Holy Spirit? or what If I didnt agree with the scripture that says so?

I as a wicked Christian homosexual have no right to judge you my friend and as such I leave that to Christ in his righteousness, so that I may maintain a right attitude towards you as a beloved brother in Christ.

I totally disagree, thats condemnation again, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus, He died for us all whilst we were all sinners. Your theology seems all contradictory. If Christ died for both of us whilst we were still sinners and we still fall short it is only through and in Christ Jesus that we are sanctified and justified. Therefore you are no more wicked as a homosexual than I am as a heterosexual. What you are trying to do is justify the sin.

ahab · Jan 10, 2005

Hi Rapael_aa,

In your two classes you make no reference to what is revealed by scripture as moral and immoral. As Christians following Jesus we have no choice because we recognise Jesus is the truth. Perfect love conquers fear. Christians are to love agape, first God and second their neighbour without fear or judgement.

People from class 2 are the sort of people who yell things from passing cars and beat up people. Hate crime legislation could legitimately be used against people of class 2.

Or the gospel? People who beat up others arent following Jesus are they?

As to the definition Christianophobia I just assume it is in the context of a society that talks even handed but starts to demonstrate it isnt.

ahab · Jan 10, 2005

As to the principles of freedom of speech, consider the recent two main issues highlighted in the media. There is no doubt that something loved or held dear or revered as holy is going to be sensitive to criticism, whether its our best friend our family, or our God, however is it reasonable to object to it? Is the work artistic and has it got a point or is it just plain offensive because it doesnt like something?

Regardless of that debate consider..

The Bezhti, a play in a Birmingham theatre was demonstrated against by Sihks but stopped because of physical violence. Is that reasonable? I say no not really, as there are all kinds of plays that are talking place that could be objected to. Corpus Christi for example is a play being demonstrated against by some Christians as it depicts a gay Jesus who also swears, that is blasphemous to Christians but nevertheless the play continues. If the BBC were to broadcast either of these on television, would this not attract complaints?

However, Jerry Springer the opera is supposedly a satire of the Jerry Springer show. It has been running at a theatre for some time and has not been stopped because of physical violence or disorder.

Nevertheless firstly, it contains a constant level of almost continuous swearing not found in these other plays, secondly it isnt a one religion play like the others as the real Jerry Springer show isnt about religion! so the second half of the opera is unrelated in this respect. I might add that the sexual relationships and identities of the contestants both in the real show and in the opera are ridiculed. Are the grounds they are ridiculed on largely religious ones? Unfaithfulness, Homo, Bi and Transsexual practice and lifestyle are largely religious beliefs of deviation. What Jerry Springer the opera has done is take one of those religions God and made Him one of the sexual deviants in a take off of one of the religions.

Islam also has Satan, if one wanted to show a theme about judgement in hell why pick God, Jesus and Mary, why not pick Jesus, and Mohammed for example? Now is the BBC going to treat other major religions equally, of so in what way and when?

But the BBC have decided to broadcast this and naturally there have been complaints, record complaints in fact. Clearly the precedent is set that record complaints are no reason for a program to be withdrawn, which is fair enough.

However the BBC has broadcast something that is heavily insulting to Christians and it is. What I believe may well be Christianophobia is the subsequent deception and denial. The director of BBC 2 claims he is a practicing Christian, so did the writer of the Sikh play The Bezhti consider herself a Sikh thats hardly the point is it? Practicising usually means doing what one believes and following what Jesus said and did in the case of a Christian.

And yet the only interview I have seen on BBC news so far is with the head of National Secular Society. Is the BBC anti-Christian?

Consideer this, the only reference I can see made on the website of the National Secular Society to The Bezhti is in the statement made about Jerry Springer the opera BBC MUST STAND FIRM AGAINST RELIGIOUS BULLIES

So it seems the National Secular Society are more concerned about verbal complaints against a nationally broadcast anti-Christian program than physical violence against a local anti-Sikh play. One you have to chose to buy tickets to see, the other you have already paid a licence fee to see. Not the same freedom not the same level inhibition of free speech.

let me leave you with two further statements to consider.
The head of the National Secular Society added that it was the BBCs duty to cater to all audiences, and not just one section of the community. So we will see some Islamic or Hindu satire?
And the Jerry Springer doucmentary revelaed that Jerry Springer said that 'the one thing he learnt in politics was to speak out for what one believed'

Mustaphile · Jan 10, 2005

Yes the scriptures tell us to address the sin, but why not tell Mustaphile, he is the one who is disputing that?

I'm asking you to show some love in an area in which we don't have agreement over what is right or wrong. I personally do not consider homosexuality a sin. I don't limit myself to scripture in making that assesment for myself, because I don't think scripture is unequivocal on this issue. I draw my own conclusions from both faith and reason and judge what it right myself from that.

Luk 12:55 And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, There will be heat; and so it is.
Luk 12:56 O false ones! the face of the earth and the heaven is clear to you; how is it that the signs of these times are not as clear to you?
Luk 12:57 And why are you, in your hearts, unable to be judges of what is right?

This section of Luke tells us the we know what is right. We are quite capable of discerning through scriputure, reason and good conscience what the right thing to do is. The law is written in our hearts. I've made my peace with those who struggle with homosexuality. If any seek to know my view, I will gladly tell them. I think that caution should be applied to any situation involving our sexuality, whether we be heterosexual or homosexual. I do not condemn them for something that they can't change about themselves. I know what is right for myself and that is to make peace with, and love those who seek Christ, and are homosexual. I understand you believe differently, Ahab. I wish you could see the irrationality of your position, in my eyes, but I don't think that's going to happen. I would hope that you will find ways of still accepting me, but if you can't find it in your heart to forgive, there is nothing I can do about that. From my side though, I forgive you for your lack of reason, from my perspective, on this issue. Peace be with you, Ahab, and may God have mercy on all our souls.

CHRISTIANOPHOBIA - anti Christian hatred.

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