Christianity --> Veganism?

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's clear that our culture suffers from overconsumption, ESPECIALLY with regards to meat products. Few people would deny that.

However, we are NOT herbivores. I've seen some vegans trying to claim that we are (basically suggesting that even our palaeolithic stone age ancestors were basically violating their digestive systems at every turn), but it does not take that much knowledge of basic physiology to figure out just how phony that claim is.

I commend vegans for their compassion and empathy, and I stand by their side when they criticize the depths to which our food industry has sunken, demanding substantial changes to the very system.
But I still find that they are excessively radical, going WAY beyond the limits of the reasonable. Whenever people struggle against an ideology, some will basically gravitate towards the opposite extreme - just as in the 1960s, when some people who criticized traditional, authoritarian parenthood and its use of violence as an educational tool ended up advocating that we do not give children any rules to live by at all.

 

[Upisoft]

Drinking the milk does not mean you are killing the cow. So, no.

Whatever we eat we kill. Plants, animals, etc.

That happens to us too. Predators eat humans, so do bacteria and viruses. And they do it while we are alive. We at least kill the animals before we eat them.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Drinking milk does not kill the cow - but that milk was meant to put about 1000 pounds on a newborn calf in a year. No other species keeps up the milk drinking like we do.
And there are quite a few studies linking milk to cancers. Here is one report on it:
Study links milk-producing protein to aggressive breast cancer | Reuters

and this one:
Hormones in milk can be dangerous

One study compared diet and cancer rates in 42 counties. It showed that milk and cheese consumption are strongly correlated to the incidence of testicular cancer among men ages 20 to 39. Rates were highest in places like Switzerland and Denmark, where cheese is a national food, and lowest in Algeria and other countries where dairy is not so widely consumed.
Cancer rates linked to dairy can change quickly, said Ganmaa. In the past 50 years in Japan, she said, rising rates of dairy consumption are linked with rising death rates from prostate cancer - from near zero per 100,000 five decades ago to 7 per 100,000 today.

I don't like the way the big meat companies treat animals, but a big concern is with animal protein and cancer.

The way beef is raised, well, it only leads to problems. Grass fed beef has a lot less of the Omega 6 fatty acid (the bad stuff) than the grain and whatever else is in the feed cows. One study showed that one pound of meat from a commercial corn fed cow has 20 grams of omega 6 fatty acid to 1 gm in a grass fed cow. And the grass fed meat is higher in Omega 3 fatty acids. No wonder heart disease is up. Plus folks eat so much of it.

This is an interesting article:
http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/grass-fed-natural-beef.asp

 

[CabVet]

Drinking milk does not kill the cow - but that milk was meant to put about 1000 pounds on a newborn calf in a year. No other species keeps up the milk drinking like we do.

While it is true that no other mammal drinks milk in adulthood, it is not every human that can do it. Only those that have a specific beneficial mutation giving them tolerance to lactose as adults can.

Calves wean at 8-9 months of age and ~500 pounds (not 1000). And they start eating grass at 2 weeks of age, so the weight gain is not exclusively due to milk. In addition, during lactation the cow consumes much more grass than usual.

And there are quite a few studies linking milk to cancers. Here is one report on it:
Study links milk-producing protein to aggressive breast cancer | Reuters

and this one:
Hormones in milk can be dangerous
I don't like the way the big meat companies treat animals, but a big concern is with animal protein and cancer.

Pretty much every type of food out there is linked to cancer, including a lot of vegetables:

Top 10 most unhealthy, cancer-causing foods - never eat these again!

The way beef is raised, well, it only leads to problems. Grass fed beef has a lot less of the Omega 6 fatty acid (the bad stuff) than the grain and whatever else is in the feed cows. One study showed that one pound of meat from a commercial corn fed cow has 20 grams of omega 6 fatty acid to 1 gm in a grass fed cow. And the grass fed meat is higher in Omega 3 fatty acids. No wonder heart disease is up. Plus folks eat so much of it.

This is an interesting article:
Health Benefits of Grass Fed Beef

Heart disease is up because people eat too much meat, not because it is inherently bad. Our digestive system is adapted to eat both meat and vegetables.

Eating meat (or not), like many other things, is a personal choice in life that should not be forced on others.

 

[CabVet]

It's clear that our culture suffers from overconsumption, ESPECIALLY with regards to meat products. Few people would deny that.

However, we are NOT herbivores. I've seen some vegans trying to claim that we are (basically suggesting that even our palaeolithic stone age ancestors were basically violating their digestive systems at every turn), but it does not take that much knowledge of basic physiology to figure out just how phony that claim is.

I commend vegans for their compassion and empathy, and I stand by their side when they criticize the depths to which our food industry has sunken, demanding substantial changes to the very system.
But I still find that they are excessively radical, going WAY beyond the limits of the reasonable. Whenever people struggle against an ideology, some will basically gravitate towards the opposite extreme - just as in the 1960s, when some people who criticized traditional, authoritarian parenthood and its use of violence as an educational tool ended up advocating that we do not give children any rules to live by at all.

QFT!! +10!!

 

[JGL53]

It's clear that our culture suffers from overconsumption, ESPECIALLY with regards to meat products. Few people would deny that.

However, we are NOT herbivores. I've seen some vegans trying to claim that we are (basically suggesting that even our palaeolithic stone age ancestors were basically violating their digestive systems at every turn), but it does not take that much knowledge of basic physiology to figure out just how phony that claim is.

I commend vegans for their compassion and empathy, and I stand by their side when they criticize the depths to which our food industry has sunken, demanding substantial changes to the very system.
But I still find that they are excessively radical, going WAY beyond the limits of the reasonable. Whenever people struggle against an ideology, some will basically gravitate towards the opposite extreme - just as in the 1960s, when some people who criticized traditional, authoritarian parenthood and its use of violence as an educational tool ended up advocating that we do not give children any rules to live by at all.

QFT!! +10!!

And I concur.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You can lose weight from restricting calories using any diet. However, it is best to go on a diet that you can live with - as in making a life style change. I had a friend who was 40 go on the Atkins diet and she lost 60 pounds and numbers looked okay. Then she had a stroke and was never the same.

Well sure, but when I was doing the Eades strict low carb diet, I wasn't exactly eating low-calorie, but the weight still fell right off and my cholesterol ratio improved dramatically...Did post diet checkups and my Dr. confirmed that my health was just fine.

As another poster referenced, the processing is what can make meat bad for you. If you eat only meat from animals that are eating their natural diet, I think health risks would be minimal. Heck, our ancestors (and I'm talking about way way back) ate a lot more animal fats that we do today, and managed to live that way for thousands of years without any of the weight problems we have today. Obesity didn't become a problem until "the experts" told humans to scrap their natural diet and eat a diet based on something that humans apparently didn't need for thousands of years.

You complain about carbs - but there is a big difference between the carbs in a fresh tomato or orange or pinto beans or whole grain pasta as opposed to chips, processed crackers and bread ("enriched" worthless stuff), and processed foods with lots of sugar or corn syrup. Living on a whole food, plant based diet is just plain healthier in the long run. I tend to eat some meat once a week, though, but make sure I eat plenty of the veges and fruit and beans and lentils. I stay away from dairy.

While it's true that there's a big difference between your simple carbs and complex carbs in regards to how they impact one's weight, carbs are still carbs and too many of them will cause your insulin to spike and hold fat in the cells. Even the best whole grain products still have a high glycemic index. So while the better whole grain products might not make you balloon up like McDonald's will, if your goal is weight loss, you're still better off leaving the carbs out of the diet.

The US government suggestions for nutrition are laughable imho. They are bought by big agra.

...well that's one part that most of us agree on completely

The food pyramid was nothing more than an attempt to indirectly subsidize the agricultural industry.

 

[JGL53]

....(The US government suggestions for nutrition are laughable imho. They are bought by big agra.)

......well that's one part that most of us agree on completely...

The food pyramid was nothing more than an attempt to indirectly subsidize the agricultural industry.

That is called speaking truth to power. I applaud you both.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Well sure, but when I was doing the Eades strict low carb diet, I wasn't exactly eating low-calorie, but the weight still fell right off and my cholesterol ratio improved dramatically...Did post diet checkups and my Dr. confirmed that my health was just fine.

As another poster referenced, the processing is what can make meat bad for you. If you eat only meat from animals that are eating their natural diet, I think health risks would be minimal. Heck, our ancestors (and I'm talking about way way back) ate a lot more animal fats that we do today, and managed to live that way for thousands of years without any of the weight problems we have today. Obesity didn't become a problem until "the experts" told humans to scrap their natural diet and eat a diet based on something that humans apparently didn't need for thousands of years.

Yes the processing has gotten terrible. It is adding so much risk besides being unnecessarily cruel to the animals ( and I thought it was serial killers who tortured animals).

My husband I took a trip to Belize a few years ago and had a few days of eating food prepared by Mayans. It was all natural, organic , whole food and it tasted wonderful. ( they did bring us - the western world - chocolate, vanilla, sweet potatoes, black beans, tomatoes and avocados you know).
We then went to another section and had a place we could cook and bought some of their beef (no hormones, antibiotics and are grass fed). It wasn't labeled with the percent fat - was just the normal ground beef folks buy there. There was very little fat in the meat and it tasted SO GOOD - and I remembered what meat was like when I was a kid (a few years ago ). And I had a Fanta orange pop made with real sugar and not high fructose corn syrup - and WOW, it was so orange and I so enjoyed it! It brought home that the processing/production is sucking all the taste out of food which they replace with chemicals and we are not eating real food and it isn't tasting as good. We are retiring there.

Yes, our ancesters ate a lot of meat but they also ate alot of greens and berries and nuts and veges (gathered by women and children usually). AND more important - they ran and walked and labored alot more than us. They had to chase their meat down, and defend themselves from predators. And their meat was not given hormones and antibiotics and fed stuff not natural to it and was butchered cleaner. I read recently recently that half of the ground beef in one of the big grocery stores tested positive for E. Coli - that comes from cow poop. YUCK!

While it's true that there's a big difference between your simple carbs and complex carbs in regards to how they impact one's weight, carbs are still carbs and too many of them will cause your insulin to spike and hold fat in the cells. Even the best whole grain products still have a high glycemic index. So while the better whole grain products might not make you balloon up like McDonald's will, if your goal is weight loss, you're still better off leaving the carbs out of the diet.

My goal is more good health. Losing weight does mean you have to cut back on the grains and nuts - but you are safe with good whole food carbs like apples, oranges (not juice), bananas, kale, tomatoes, cucumbers etc. Eat a big salad everyday and your hunger is helped.
Kale is a wonderful green - it is loaded with good stuff and very little calories.

I like to eat. That is why I walk, ride a bike, swim, excercise.
But I am concerned about cancer too.

This article is interesting:
PCRM | Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk.

...well that's one part that most of us agree on completely

The food pyramid was nothing more than an attempt to indirectly subsidize the agricultural industry.

Well said!!

 

[FreeinChrist]

While it is true that no other mammal drinks milk in adulthood, it is not every human that can do it. Only those that have a specific beneficial mutation giving them tolerance to lactose as adults can.

Calves wean at 8-9 months of age and ~500 pounds (not 1000). And they start eating grass at 2 weeks of age, so the weight gain is not exclusively due to milk. In addition, during lactation the cow consumes much more grass than usual.

500 is still alot of pounds and they get most of their nutrition from mom initially.

I think the issue is more than lactose intolerance. From all that I read, casein can trigger to genes and cause cancer.

Pretty much every type of food out there is linked to cancer, including a lot of vegetables:

Top 10 most unhealthy, cancer-causing foods - never eat these again!

That is a good article - thanks for posting it!!

The point I get from the article is why there is a problem. Check this part:

1) Genetically-modified organisms (GMOs). It goes without saying that GMOs have no legitimate place in any cancer-free diet, especially now that both GMOs and the chemicals used to grow them have been shown to cause rapid tumor growth. But GMOs are everywhere, including in most food derivatives made from conventional corn, soybeans, and canola. However, you can avoid them by sticking with certified organic, certified non-GMO verified, and locally-grown foods that are produced naturally without biotechnology (http://www.naturalnews.com).

Learn more: Top 10 most unhealthy, cancer-causing foods - never eat these again!
​

When I was a kid, I didn't know anyone who had a peanut allergy. PB and J was standard lunch food we all ate. Peanuts were served everywhere. Then in the mid 1980's, Monsanto(pretty sure it was them) figured out how to modify the peanut with insect DNA to prevent insect damage to crops. Since then, peanut allergies are rising dramatically. I am a school nurse and am shocked at how many kids have epipens for peanut allergies. We have peanut free classrooms. It is the insect DNA that is the problem. Now alot more crops are modified. Soy was modified with brazil nut DNA. Home | AllergyKids is a good source of information.

And as for the apples and other fruit - herbicides. You have to wash them or buy organic. Well, always wash them. (Can you tell I am a nurse?)

Heart disease is up because people eat too much meat, not because it is inherently bad. Our digestive system is adapted to eat both meat and vegetables.

Eating meat (or not), like many other things, is a personal choice in life that should not be forced on others.

Agree folks eat too much. It is the feeding of the cattle too - it is increasing the Omega 6 fatty acids. Cattle evolved to eat grasses, not cornmeal and ground body parts from other animals.
Though in Brazil, they are adding coconut meat to the feed and it seems to have less issues there than with corn.


These are some of the reasons my hubby and I are retiring to Belize - real food, grass fed beef, no herbicides, GREAT veges and fruits and beans and fresh caught fish. I eat some meat - I just like better meat.
(and the air is clean, you can see lots and lots of stars at night and the ocean is gorgeous! )

 

[CabVet]

These are some of the reasons my hubby and I are retiring to Belize - real food, grass fed beef, no herbicides, GREAT veges and fruits and beans and fresh caught fish. I eat some meat - I just like better meat.
(and the air is clean, you can see lots and lots of stars at night and the ocean is gorgeous! )

Oh, that's where you are mistaken. Regulations in third world countries like Belize are much more relaxed than here in the US, they use a lot more antibiotics in their cows and pesticides in the crops than we do. I speak it from experience. Not to mention that every fish that you can catch in Belize is overfished. If you want the food to be perfect (like you seem to do) you have to grow it yourself.

 

[Miss Spaulding]

These are some of the reasons my hubby and I are retiring to Belize - real food, grass fed beef, no herbicides, GREAT veges and fruits and beans and fresh caught fish. I eat some meat - I just like better meat.
(and the air is clean, you can see lots and lots of stars at night and the ocean is gorgeous! )

Good for y'all.

My sister and her husband have considered moving to Belize, or somewhere similar. We're very much of the same mindset as you.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This article is interesting:
PCRM | Meat Consumption and Cancer Risk.

Well said!!

What you have to be careful about are reports like this that misrepresent data or cherry pick the data that fits their preconceived notion and throw out the data that doesn't match.

Fat Head » The Latest ‘Meat Causes Cancer’ Bologna

it's important to note that many of the same people who are conducting the "meat is bad" studies are often on the same team as the people who provided us with the flawed food pyramid in the first place...or they're working with activists groups like CSPI...but that group is a whole other can of worms.

 

[Upisoft]

Drinking milk does not kill the cow - but that milk was meant to put about 1000 pounds on a newborn calf in a year. No other species keeps up the milk drinking like we do.
And there are quite a few studies linking milk to cancers. Here is one report on it:

No other species make cheese and yogurt either. Some milk based products are very healthy for humans. The calves put weight using substitute food and cow milk in combination. And they usually die to become hamburgers in some fast food restaurant chain.

Anyway if they were left alone they will be starving to death, as all their natural habitat is now farmland. Or they can go to areas where other predators will happily welcome them. BTW, after so much time of artificial selection for giving more meat/milk, they will be very easy pray. I mean, they now depend on us for survival as species.

 

[Harry3142]

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." (Genesis 9:1-3,NIV)

After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (The Gospel of St. Mark 7:17-19,NIV)

These two passages are some of the Scripture which approves of our using other species of animals for food. As well, those who advocate that we refrain from using animals for food and clothing don't say that they want to save the animals. Instead, they say that they want to stop having the animals used as a source of food and clothing. The two statements are not synonymous.

When I have pressed them concerning those species that either cannot survive in wildlife areas (such as sheep, chickens and cows), or are wellknown for being extremely destructive if permitted to roam free (such as pigs), the same people who demanded that we not use these species also admitted that they saw the endresult of their demands as being not the freedom of the species, but rather their total eradication.

The species couldn't remain where they are, because those fields would have to be plowed and then used for the production of vegetable crops. The species that could not digest wildlife forage would be condemned to starve if forced into wildlife areas, while those that are destructive would destroy the very fields that we would depend on for the increased vegetable crops. So that would leave the only humane fate for them being to be driven into a deep pit, shot, and then buried. And this fate has already been agreeed to by some of those whom I have talked with who are demanding strict veganism.

One of them went so far as to tell me, "It's better that they be extincted than that they be used as they're being used now." Since when is the total eradication of species that we have depended on for millennia to be seen as beneficial to anyone, including those species? Such thinking isn't a sign of compassion; it's a sign of arrogance.

 

[TheDag]

I have a few friends that did the vegan thing...if it's such a great diet, why do many vegans have to end up taking supplements? (protein and iron)

that's easy to answer. because they have not done their research. In almost every situation people who take a protein supplement are clowns. Protein is so easy to get and is in almost everything. Ask anyone who has been on a protein free diet what they were allowed to eat and they would probably rather smack you one than talk about those foods. Iron likewise is easy enough to get without supplements. My wife never took supplements yet was vegan. Several times she had her iron levels checked due to lack of energy and they were better than most. Turned out she needed open heart surgery as two valves were leaking.

 

[keith99]

I've got an off the wall question.

Do Vegans have some special standards for how their veggies are raised?

If the concern is for animal pain and suffering it would seem that just how pest damage is minimized would matter.

At first glance organic methods might seem good, but that really is not so. Often organic methods result in a much worse death for the snail, slugs and gophers and other pests in question.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Oh, that's where you are mistaken. Regulations in third world countries like Belize are much more relaxed than here in the US, they use a lot more antibiotics in their cows and pesticides in the crops than we do. I speak it from experience. Not to mention that every fish that you can catch in Belize is overfished. If you want the food to be perfect (like you seem to do) you have to grow it yourself.

Oh, I know Belize has few regulations about everything - you can look at the hodgepodge of Belize city and see that! . It lacks some stuff since it is a small country of 330,000 with a big mix of people. But they do have a significant number of Mennonite farmers, and we are buying in a a community concerned with sustainability. We will be off the grid - depending on solar power alone (with solar battery back up), a septic tank, collecting our own rainwater and treating that for our water needs. Our only real bills with be the phone with internet hot spot and insurance.

One thing the country does seem to have a strong view on is the ecology and environment. There is no hunting, no off shore drilling and they depend a great deal on diving business and ecotourism.

 

[Totodile386]

In God's perfect, original life, there was no death, loss, evil, rot, or decay.

It is written,

"And God said, Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food." -- Genesis 1:29

Further,

"And to every beast of the earth and to every flyer of the skies and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food. And it was so." -- Genesis 1:30

This was even before the appearance of the vile serpent.

After the deception, after the deluge, God did say animals can be eaten . . .

That said, Elohim also did say,

"And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being." -- Genesis 9:5

And while Jesus said that what goes into the mouth and out the body cannot render a person unclean, Jesus also said,

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." -- Matthew 7:12

and,

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." -- John 13:34-35

So, if you were indeed a cow, would you want to live in a dirty, smelly factory, artificially bred, your babies taken away, and yourself hooked up to a milk machine every day, for money, until you died? Or, if you're a steer, raised in these same conditions, artificially bred, and killed young to sell the gift of your flesh for money?

I don't.

Instead of seeing chickens as objects, see chickens as neighbors. Do you know what eggs are? Eggs are unfertilized menstruation from the bird. Would you eat your neighbor's unfertilized menstrual waste? Or would you feed or sell that to your neighbors?

I wouldn't.

As a side note, coincidentally, if you create bread according to this passage:

"Take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt; put them in a storage jar and use them to make bread for yourself." -- Ezekiel 4:9

Purportedly, this bread results in a complete protein that mimics the nutritional profile of eggs.

Also, consider this vegan passage from Daniel:

"Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." -- Daniel 1:12-13

Further,

"So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.

At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food." -- Daniel 1:14-15

 

[The happy Objectivist]

Hello, I'm just wondering how many people here are vegans? It would seem that based on the First Commandment, veganism would be a necessary way of living, as there is no asterisk next to it specifying circumstances or species.

Since the only way that we can justify using and killing animals for food, clothing and entertainment is for our own personal pleasure, convenience or tradition, and these uses are unnecessary, surely we are obligated to avoid these uses of animals, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

I would be interested to hear others' opinions.

I ate vegan for a while. I think a plant based diet is the healthiest. I didn't do it because of any ethical reason but because I wanted to be healthier. I felt great and lost 50 lbs. I had all kinds of energy and most of the aches and pains I had went away. I still eat a mostly plant based diet with meat occasionally. The fact is when I eat a lot of meat and fat, I don't feel so good, start having issues with digestion. I do not think it is unethical for Humans to eat meat or animal products. We evolved to eat a variety of things, including meat. All living things need to eat and something must die for them to eat. Of course, I don't accept the ten commandments as authoritative. But didn't the Bible talk about the loaves and the fishes. Fish are animals. So Jesus himself wasn't a vegan according to the story.