Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[stevevw]

Where do you find in the Bible any specific support for the idea of unalienable rights?

The bible has many references to human worth and rights that are beyond human subjective determinations. Galatians 3:28 says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus". So there is no race, sex, gender, or identity, but all are the same in Christ with the same rights as equal children of God..

But the main belief is what formed the basis for the US Declaration that we are all made in Gods image with God given natural and unalienable rights. This same idea dormed the basis for human rights.

It elevates humans beyond wordly conceptions of worth to be divinely made and not just animals. It gives humans soverignty beyond human values.

Yet it is the Christian church which stands against these things in the US today.

How do you mean. I thought they stood for these things like free speech, Rule of law, freedom of religion and the truth.

I know that these truth principles are being eroded by language laws that and cancel culture than wants to shut down the truth. I know that people are being cancelled for saying the wrong thing. People being hounded and their lives destroyed for their beliefs.

I know that identity politics has devalued merit and honest hard work and now a persons worth is the identities they belong to and not the content of their character as Dr King said. I know that money can but the truth and the law. I know that in a possst modernist society theres no more truth full stop and reality is what you make it, what you feel or believe.

But I don't think its the church doing this. The curch has lost its power and has been pushed to the fringes even underground. No this is happening by whoever is able to get into a position of power and influence. Whoever can manipulate the system to push their agenda.

At present its the academic ideologues who are working through the universities and institutions and now into policy and laws and our morals and social conscience under the guise of Wokism. But thats been brewing for sometime and is now coming to fruition.

 

[BPPLEE]

That's ok. I didn't say they were.

I know.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh ok. Um I don't know. I guess I thought it relates mostly to ethics and morality but more along the lines of understanding human evolution as well. I referred to the preflood cultures as worshipping pagan like gods and nature.

Preflood cultures? ... you're using Sodom and Gomorrah as your metaphorical "type," so I'm kind of lost with what it is you're wanting to hone in on. Are we talking about Ethics, or Politics, or Science?

I was basing this on the archeology in finding new dicoveries of ancient cultures burried deep which display surprising sophistication and belief considering they are supposedly twice as old as what we thought was the age of the birth of organised living from hunters and gatherers.

It seems there may have been a number of highly formed cultures around at the same time that disappeared relatively quickly around 8 or 10.000 years ago.

Sources please?

So perhaps we are seeing a bigger version of that happening now. History does tend to repeat itself but in bigger ways.

A bigger version? Do you mean to refer to something along the line of the presence of the ideology of the Two Beasts in the book of Revelation?

Or, do you have something else in mind?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Lol, no. I mention them earlier. Think about the west and what it represents. Why did most people in the world who were oppressed, lacked freedom and opprotunity long for, the US of A lol. I know it has been idolised. But fundementally the US represented what all western nations aspired to.

It sure wasn't for our (US) superior attachment to Christianity.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I cannot help what others feel about the associations. These are just observations of society that people make. How culture changes, how it compares to the past, how moral mores have changed.

I am not the first to make the observation and plenty have including from a non religious perspecvtive such as through anthropology, evolution, genetics, cross cultural psychology which is my area of interest.

So you agree that the west was the vehicle for which Christianity was brought to the world. We can't just reject our own history because of the bad stuff that happened. Nor make the bad stuff the only stuff to be fffocused on.

History *is* something we have to reckon with -- the African slave trade, the Aboriginal extermination campaigns, the Jewish holocaust, etc.

I think its important to remember the truths and values we learnt and keep hold of them, protect them and remind ourselves of them as they are what will keep our sanity, morality and order.

One of those is a dedication to demonstrable reality.

They have been tried and tested and were realised through a lot of mistakes and hardships so we know they work and hold true. Once we let them slip then we begin to decend into chaos. Which is beginning to happen already as we are seeing with the divisions and antagonism between people and groups.

I don't know who is seeking division here. Let's let this pass.

Moving on to the division of universal truths/realities/properties as human or Christian...

No there not human because they transcend human ideas and values. Like the natural unalienable rights such as the right to life.

If you are talking about the Catholic understanding of "right to life" then it is certainly not universal. If you are talking about some more general form, then it is certainly not limited to Christians.

This truth transcends any single human, or group or States ideas about rights and human worth. We recognise the truth is law a law of nature and defying it can lead to societies downfall.

When it goes past any group boundary it doesn't "belong" to any group.

Like the right to a free conscience. No one can make a measure or create a value that dictates to another that they have no right to their own freedom of conscience. Its a self evident and transcedent truth that goes with being human. Sure you can deny it but we do at our own peril.

Again, no group can claim this, especially not a religion that deems lustful thoughts as adultery, hateful thoughts as violence, opposes desire for stuff, and forbids the worship of any god but their own.

Like reality, our lived reality, our embodied reality. No one can create some human made nature and order for humans or change nature. Like physical reality, we defy it at our own peril. We create disorder when we play god and mess with nature.

I canna break the laws of physics. [Attempts to do so may be punished swiftly without further warning.]

Yeah why not, theres so many. The alien saga got everyone excited hoping that some starman was going to visit. But that seemed to have died down.

I reckon its going to be virtual reality and Ai. That is going to be the next big godlike belief. Belief in the power and magic of Ai. I mean we can create Ai gods with supernatural like abilities. A growing number are so immersed in the digital world I don't think they would be able to tell the difference lol. Its scary really.

What? [None of this is related to this thread.]

 

[Hans Blaster]

The bible has many references to human worth and rights that are beyond human subjective determinations. Galatians 3:28 says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus". So there is no race, sex, gender, or identity, but all are the same in Christ with the same rights as equal children of God..

Come on, man! This is clearly talking about *all Christians* (or followers of Christ, what ever they were calling themselves in Paul's day). It says nothing about all being equal that *don't* follow Christ.

But the main belief is what formed the basis for the US Declaration that we are all made in Gods image with God given natural and unalienable rights. This same idea dormed the basis for human rights.

The DoI is invoking a quite deist god ("Nature's god" is the phrase). While it doesn't take a form excluding the Christian god, it takes no efforts to be explicit that it is referring to your god. The kinds of phrases that invoke Christian ideas of the divine were common in such documents at the time and the DoI does not invoke them.

 

[BCP1928]

The bible has many references to human worth and rights that are beyond human subjective determinations. Galatians 3:28 says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus". So there is no race, sex, gender, or identity, but all are the same in Christ with the same rights as equal children of God..

Nothing about rights in Galatians.

But the main belief is what formed the basis for the US Declaration that we are all made in Gods image with God given natural and unalienable rights. This same idea dormed the basis for human rights.

Not, I notice, specifically the Christian God.

It elevates humans beyond wordly conceptions of worth to be divinely made and not just animals. It gives humans soverignty beyond human values.

I always believed that animals were divinely made, too. Sovereignty over what?

How do you mean. I thought they stood for these things like free speech, Rule of law, freedom of religion and the truth.

Only for fellow Christians. Or people who vote that way.

I know that these truth principles are being eroded by language laws that and cancel culture than wants to shut down the truth. I know that people are being cancelled for saying the wrong thing. People being hounded and their lives destroyed for their beliefs.

I know that identity politics has devalued merit and honest hard work and now a persons worth is the identities they belong to and not the content of their character as Dr King said. I know that money can but the truth and the law. I know that in a possst modernist society theres no more truth full stop and reality is what you make it, what you feel or believe.

But I don't think its the church doing this. The curch has lost its power and has been pushed to the fringes even underground. No this is happening by whoever is able to get into a position of power and influence. Whoever can manipulate the system to push their agenda.

At present its the academic ideologues who are working through the universities and institutions and now into policy and laws and our morals and social conscience under the guise of Wokism. But thats been brewing for sometime and is now coming to fruition.

That's quite a rant. You could write copy for Tucker Carlson or somebody like that. And, of course, the Church is always the real victim.

 

[stevevw]

Preflood cultures? ... you're using Sodom and Gomorrah as your metaphorical "type," so I'm kind of lost with what it is you're wanting to hone in on. Are we talking about Ethics, or Politics, or Science?

I used S&G just as the metaphor but it could apply to the preflood. Primarily its about the fall of these cultures and cities due to the loss of morals but I am also interested in the paraelles that may exist between these cultures and today which includes their cultural belief practices ie paganism and worshipping nature as many had gods or made gods of nature like animals such as the frog, lion, reptiles, half human half creature ect. Or created great monolithes as part of their beliefs out of stone.

Sources please?

Ah well theres a number of new discoveries.

Gobekli Tepe

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?

Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

www.smithsonianmag.com

A bigger version? Do you mean to refer to something along the line of the presence of the ideology of the Two Beasts in the book of Revelation?
Or, do you have something else in mind?

Not really. I don't want to get into revelations. I mean a bigger version of the collapse of a culture or empire. Is our current plight as Western Culture decending into a similar situation like S&G, like the preflood cultures.

I see some similarities with these cultures where they moved away from God and reverted to beliefs in paganism, nature, created human made gods.

 

[stevevw]

It sure wasn't for our (US) superior attachment to Christianity.

I disagree. I just went through the many Christian values the US and west held up such as equality under God which was the basis for freedoms of life which people were attracted to.

Democratic governments, being able to live life without being arbitrarily arrested, or taken away for just expressing your views ect. Moral standards that promoted resepct, justice and the dignity of others and the betterment of society such as family values for which most humans understand and believe is important.

The west especially the US symbolised those values which are basic Christian values and innate values in all humans. Others around the world who were being oppressed seen those values in western nations and thats why they wanted to come, to be free and have a better life.

I think its more than a coincident that just about every nation that people around the world want to flee to are or were Christian nations.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I disagree.

This seems to be your lot in life.

I just went through the many Christian values the US and west held up such as equality under God which was the basis for freedoms of life which people were attracted to.

The US doesn't hold up "equality under God", it holds up "equality under the Law". God doesn't come into it.

Democratic governments, being able to live life without being arbitrarily arrested, or taken away for just expressing your views ect. Moral standards that promoted resepct, justice and the dignity of others and the betterment of society such as family values for which most humans understand and believe is important.

Can you quote Christian scripture, doctrine, or canon against arbitrary arrest, democracy, or free expression regardless of being a Christian or not?

The west especially the US symbolised those values which are basic Christian values and innate values in all humans. Others around the world who were being oppressed seen those values in western nations and thats why they wanted to come, to be free and have a better life.

This frankly is self-contradictory. Christianity is a globally minority religion. About 1/3 of all humans are Christians. If a value is universal, then it is not exclusive to Christianity and if it is Christian, then it is not universal.

I think its more than a coincident that just about every nation that people around the world want to flee to are or were Christian nations.

Maybe it is to the place where the Enlightenment happened.

 

[stevevw]

History *is* something we have to reckon with -- the African slave trade, the Aboriginal extermination campaigns, the Jewish holocaust, etc.

Yes we've done some bad stuff even in the name of what we rationalise as good. Sometimes, perhaps often ignorant but also due to our sinful nature.

One of those is a dedication to demonstrable reality.

Yes, and I think they all work together, they converge and should not conflict with each other. What is often morally good is also in harmony with reality and Gods order.

I don't know who is seeking division here. Let's let this pass.

Moving on to the division of universal truths/realities/properties as human or Christian...

Not sure what you mean by this. The division I am talking about sort of relates to the disharmoney between sanity, morality and order and the universal truths/realities/properties as human or Christian.

Especially in a POst Modernist society where the universal truths/realities/properties, the Canons of the west are being undermined by relativism. Even in the sciences, like science is just one version of reality but not the real version. The real version is self referential, whatever I say is reality.

If you are talking about the Catholic understanding of "right to life" then it is certainly not universal. If you are talking about some more general form, then it is certainly not limited to Christians.

No I am talking about the universal understanding. Yes they are not just Christian values and beliefs. But I think they are best exemplified through the Christian worldview.

The US founding fathers knew this when they said 'all people are created in the image of God with unaliebale natural rights'. This was the basis for national Bills of Rights and later HUman Rights.

But this value is known innately by all in how we empathise with others and know, sense this value unlike the objective world. Thats because if we are made in Gods image then we are not just physical creatures but moral and spiritual with divine status.

When it goes past any group boundary it doesn't "belong" to any group.

Yes so its value is not based on any individual, group or even entire State's opinions, views and beliefs about its value. Yet it still holds value in the world like a law of nature.

We recognise it as such to the point we can say anyone who disagrees or violates these truths is wrong and a threat to humankind. So in that sense it transcends any human ideas and thinking and has the status of a physical law yet not about physical reality.

Again, no group can claim this, especially not a religion that deems lustful thoughts as adultery, hateful thoughts as violence, opposes desire for stuff, and forbids the worship of any god but their own.

Yes thats right. These truths or moral laws transcend any human idea or value judgement. But the Christian idea about " lustful thoughts as adultery, hateful thoughts as violence" is a reflection of the moral laws to not commit adultery and kill.

Christ came to fullfill the law. When he spoke about lust or anger in the heart, the mind as even being a sin he was simply pointing out the nature of sin and the human propensity to sin. We know from psychology, from how humans think and behave that bad behaviour starts in the mind well before the actual act.

So Christ was simply saying that adultery and Murder start in the mind and is you indulge in lust and anger or violent thoughts you will live that out. So we need to change from with to change our outer behaviour. That we are cannot overcome this sinful nature without being renewed in mind and spirit.

I canna break the laws of physics. [Attempts to do so may be punished swiftly without further warning.]

But its the same for these transcendent truths or law like morals. Just like if we jumped from a high place thinking we could fly we will feel the reality of the laws of gravity. When we defy these transcedent laws such as say devaluing human life, or denying free speech or justice we get similar negative comebacks.

For example we know from experience that denying justice can lead to the undermining of justice and that brings rebellion. Or denying free speech leads to Totalitarianism. Or allowing people to steal from each other brings chaos, hyervigelence, retaliation, dog eat dog ect. Or unbriddled lust brings rape and carnage ect.

What? [None of this is related to this thread.]

I think it does. It relates to the idea that if society rejects God as S&G did then they will fill that belief void with other gods, metaphysical ideas about reality, morality, the meaning of life.

If humans have this innate need and modern secular society is searching for that meaning they are open to all sorts of ideas. That is what we are seing now with the rise of so many ideas about what is real, what is the meaning of life. The internet, soicial media and tech are a big part of that.

If we are now basically relating to each other digitally then it makes sense that the digital world becomes more the real world, at least perceptually for many. If its influencing all other aspects of our lives why not our beliefs about even reality itself.

Like I said in Post Modern society the new reality is the self made one and the self made one is enhanced by the digital world. I am just suggesting another aspect of how modern society may fill the void of belief.

But it doesn't matter so much how but that it will be filled with some human made idea and whatever it is at the moment its not working, Its not bringing the promised DEI Utopia.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The US founding fathers knew this when they said 'all people are created in the image of God with unaliebale natural rights'. This was the basis for national Bills of Rights and later HUman Rights.

Too bad they didn't say that.

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

We start with the "Laws of Nature" and "Nature's God" (not any "Lord God" or the "Holy Trinity" or any other Christian formulation).

These are the "self-evident" truths that follow:

* all men are created equal
* they are endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights
* to "secure these rights" men make governments "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This pretty far from the Christian divine right of kings.

The language is soaring and leaves vagueness to put any "Creator" into the slot that you would like, but it doesn't say anything like "all people are created in the image of God" (a very Christian phrase).

 

[stevevw]

This seems to be your lot in life.

I am not sure what that means.

The US doesn't hold up "equality under God", it holds up "equality under the Law". God doesn't come into it.

It doesn't now. But the basis for equality under the law came from Christian values of human worth and equality. Such as with the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights ect which proceeded Human Rights for which all laws are based on including equality under the law.

Can you quote Christian scripture, doctrine, or canon against arbitrary arrest, democracy, or free expression regardless of being a Christian or not?

This is all based on the Christian principle of human worth being equal regardless of who you are. This was the fundemental principle against ideas like arbitrary arrest in that each human had worth and rights even against States and powers who may want to impose their ideology on others and force them to conform.

The same with free expression. If every human is of same value and has the right to life then they have the right to be human. To equally express themselves and live freely. If there is no human who can deny another even kings or presidents then each has a right in determining how they live, thus democracy and free speech stems from democracy and enlightenment.

So the primary Christian principle is that we are created in Gods image with natural unaliebale rights to life. But many biblical verses reflect this like the story of the Good Samaritan who makes all equal regardless of ethnicity, belief, or status, or whenever the bible mentions valuing the least of us, making all equal such as
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

Or James 2:8-9
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

This is reflected in the western Canon of literature such as the Magna Carta, Bills of Rights, but also the great works of philosophers and religious leaders like Augustine, Aquinas, Hobbes, Descartes, Kant and Mill. These great works gave us new insights into human nature, morality, experience and reality such as with Descartes and Mind/Body Dualism which relates to consciousness and the soul. They all bright insights into human nature, morality and how each human is unique and of equal value.

This article explains how much of the westerb canon is being removed from academia as they 'De-colonise' the ciriculum.

The Wisest of Counselors: The Western Canon and Those Who Would Defend It — The James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal

Colleges and universities have sadly been losing their wisest counselor -- the western canon -- in favor of politically trendy and progressive literature.

www.jamesgmartin.center

By the way I think a good representation of a western canon related to this thread is Miltons Paradise Lost.

This frankly is self-contradictory. Christianity is a globally minority religion. About 1/3 of all humans are Christians. If a value is universal, then it is not exclusive to Christianity and if it is Christian, then it is not universal.

Or that Christianity is aligned with what is natural and innate in all humans. If God created us and we are made in His image then it makes sense that He placed in us the ability to know Him. Humans have the ability to express this innate knowledge in different ways due to culture. But its the same core values and principles that they are expressing culturally.

Christianity is just the best way to express this that most aligns with nature and reality. The west was closest to expressing these Christian truths and principles but that doesn't mean other cultures cannot express aspects of this in their own way.

I look at Islam and Hebrews as a good example. Basically it is about the Christian creator God up until Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah, the fullfillment of the law that is promised in the Old Testament of all these religions. The Muslims believe its Mohummad 600 plus years after Christ and the Jews believe the Messiah is yet to come. But between them they all believe in fundementally the same thing which makes up the majority of the worlds religions.

But outside this most other religions have a similar structure, a creator, morality, a saviour, a judgement and eternal life after death. They are all expressions of the same innate beliefs we all have and make sense if we are spiritual beings as well as physical ones.

Maybe it is to the place where the Enlightenment happened.

Enlightened thinking happened well before Enlightenment. The idea that Christ was the Truth and shone a light in the darkness of human hearts is related.

As mentioned many of the pioneers of Enlightenment believes that rational thought and science would reveal Gods truth in nature. In some ways Christianity was the drive behind even science in the early days.

 

[stevevw]

Too bad they didn't say that.

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

We start with the "Laws of Nature" and "Nature's God" (not any "Lord God" or the "Holy Trinity" or any other Christian formulation).

These are the "self-evident" truths that follow:

* all men are created equal
* they are endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights
* to "secure these rights" men make governments "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This pretty far from the Christian divine right of kings.

I see it differently. The founding fathers are not just talking about any god but the Creator God who also created us with those unalienable natural God given rights. Rights beyond. Its inherent that we are made in Gods image in that we are given greater worth that animals because we were created with a divine aspect.

The founding fathers and society all believed in the creator God that upheld order for society and the universe for that matter. So they were very aware of the significance of placing the value of humans and what is right on God and not themselves or society.

The idea of 'Government for the people and by the people' was based on the same Creator God authorising man to elect governments over themselves appointed by God. This is reflected in the bible with how the Isrealites formed society based on electing respected members to uphold the laws and how Paul wrote to the early church in electing respected and wise members to govern the church society.

The language is soaring and leaves vagueness to put any "Creator" into the slot that you would like, but it doesn't say anything like "all people are created in the image of God" (a very Christian phrase).

I disagree. We already know that its a 'Creator God' of everything including humans. We know that God installed natural unalienable Rights in us as part of that creation. Rights that make us above what the created can determine or have authority uphold. So it seems a very personal God who understands humans, they Rights to life.

The thing is the vast majority of society believed in the Christian creator God of the bible. The fathers had to work out a way to incorporate that in without denying the natural rights to freedoms of belief. But every bit of their life was living out the Christian God in their language and morals ect.

Some believed in a Deistic God but they stll seem to believe in a God who created humans as something special, above animals with divine status. This was the basis for ending slavery as many believed blacks to be subhuman and the Christian value was all humans were created equal in Gods image or at least with some divine or transcedent status above what humans could determine or be worthy to determine.

Only God had this authority which seems to personalise Him. .

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I used S&G just as the metaphor but it could apply to the preflood. Primarily its about the fall of these cultures and cities due to the loss of morals but I am also interested in the paraelles that may exist between these cultures and today which includes their cultural belief practices ie paganism and worshipping nature as many had gods or made gods of nature like animals such as the frog, lion, reptiles, half human half creature ect. Or created great monolithes as part of their beliefs out of stone.

Ah well theres a number of new discoveries.

Gobekli Tepe

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?

Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization

www.smithsonianmag.com

Not really. I don't want to get into revelations. I mean a bigger version of the collapse of a culture or empire. Is our current plight as Western Culture decending into a similar situation like S&G, like the preflood cultures.

I see some similarities with these cultures where they moved away from God and reverted to beliefs in paganism, nature, created human made gods.

Ok, so you're trying to essentially bring in a Herbert Butterfield type of lens to the historical interpretation and application of the verse where Jesus is reported by Matthew to have said, "As it was in the days of Noah........." ???

Personally---and I could be wrong---I think you may be putting too much emphasis upon a particular theological and eschatological view in order to make a point that the majority of your audience isn't really going to reflect upon nor take seriously. I also wouldn't use Sodom and Gomorrah as a typological motif in order to get attention for the thread, especially since you've already that it has little to do with your attempted focus of study.

As for Gobekli Tepe, I don't think it tells us that much, other than that there have been people around for some time that doesn't quite match up with the time span found in the Old Testament. Gobekli Tepe especially doesn't tell us much about Ethics.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I see it differently.

Since you were wondering, it is your repeated disagreements with reality that I was referring to as your lot in life.

The founding fathers are not just talking about any god but the Creator God who also created us with those unalienable natural God given rights. Rights beyond. Its inherent that we are made in Gods image in that we are given greater worth that animals because we were created with a divine aspect.

I'm going to cut Jefferson (the principle writer of this section) and Franklin (the primary editor) some slack, though they certainly have their flaws, since Darwin wouldn't be born for 33 years. "Created in god's image" is you guys. I have no reason to think that deists (like these two) thought of this watchmaker god as even creating humans, let alone "made them in [its] image". That's a Jewish thing you Christians use. Nothing about the text of the DoI implies it.

The founding fathers and society all believed in the creator God that upheld order for society and the universe for that matter. So they were very aware of the significance of placing the value of humans and what is right on God and not themselves or society.

This is not my impression of the deists. Mostly, I think, they thought that the creator had set the world in motion and didn't ascribe human values to it. You seem again to be projecting very Christian thoughts on to very non-Christian people.

The idea of 'Government for the people and by the people' was based on the same Creator God authorising man to elect governments over themselves appointed by God. This is reflected in the bible with how the Isrealites formed society based on electing respected members to uphold the laws and how Paul wrote to the early church in electing respected and wise members to govern the church society.

This is *directly* contradicted by the text I provided for you. It makes no reference to god as the source for government, in fact it does the opposite. It says it is UP TO US to form governments and that the power of government derives from the people themselves (rather than any divine/creator force).

I disagree. We already know that its a 'Creator God' of everything including humans. We know that God installed natural unalienable Rights in us as part of that creation. Rights that make us above what the created can determine or have authority uphold. So it seems a very personal God who understands humans, they Rights to life.

Most deists didn't consider the creator to even be personal.

The thing is the vast majority of society believed in the Christian creator God of the bible. The fathers had to work out a way to incorporate that in without denying the natural rights to freedoms of belief.

The DoI doesn't actually say anything about freedom of belief. (Jefferson was a strong supporter of full religious freedom and drafted a statute as governor of Virginia which he valued as his most significant achievement placing it as the only accomplishment in his epitaph.)

But every bit of their life was living out the Christian God in their language and morals ect.

You should probably read up on the sexual morals of Jefferson and Franklin. You might want to post-date your OP to 1776 afterward.

Some believed in a Deistic God but they stll seem to believe in a God who created humans as something special, above animals with divine status.

Divine status? I think you Christianity is making assumptions about other people's beliefs again.

This was the basis for ending slavery as many believed blacks to be subhuman and the Christian value was all humans were created equal in Gods image or at least with some divine or transcedent status above what humans could determine or be worthy to determine.

It's rather odd then that abolition in America didn't start until *after* the former colonists had fought for *their* freedom from a seemingly overwhelming oppressive power. (Jefferson included a clause blaming george 3 for the slave trade, but Franklin and Adams had him remove it to avoid irritating the various states dominated by the slave economy and the slaveholders in the Continental Congress itself.) After the war, Franklin would help found the first anti-slavery society in North America and Jefferson would keep a mixed-race enslaved woman as his concubine (she was also his dead wife's half-sister).

Only God had this authority which seems to personalise Him. .

That's *your* claim - a Christian one. It is not universal, nor one which deists would make

 

[stevevw]

Ok, so you're trying to essentially bring in a Herbert Butterfield type of lens to the historical interpretation and application of the verse where Jesus is reported by Matthew to have said, "As it was in the days of Noah........." ???

Sort of but not just limited to the bible and religion but also in anthropological, sociological and psychological terms as well. How societies breakdown and how past examples can apply today.

Personally---and I could be wrong---I think you may be putting too much emphasis upon a particular theological and eschatological view in order to make a point that the majority of your audience isn't really going to reflect upon nor take seriously.

Actually I havn't focused on the religious aspects but more on the practical ways society may breakdown. More from an anthropological viewpoint. How societies undermine themselves and how humans are inclined to believe in ideologies about life and morality and how that will determine how society is ordered or disordered.

I also wouldn't use Sodom and Gomorrah as a typological motif in order to get attention for the thread, especially since you've already that it has little to do with your attempted focus of study.

You are probably right. But I was actually looking at some videos on the fall of society through a historical perspective, what actually happens, how they breakdown which had nothing to do with religion but S&G came to my mind. Not so much in a religious sense but wondering how did S&G get to that point. What was happening in the back streets, in politics, was there this subculture going on that took over.

I know people relate to S&G as sex but that was only one expression and I wasn't so much interested in the sex side of things, though that always seems to be a big part of it. But rather how things breakdown across a number of areas, how relationships breakdown, division, the mindset and how this leads to believing in destructive ideas that bring about self destruction.

As for Gobekli Tepe, I don't think it tells us that much, other than that there have been people around for some time that doesn't quite match up with the time span found in the Old Testament. Gobekli Tepe especially doesn't tell us much about Ethics.

Actually it does in a big way. What we see at Gobekli Tepe is a temple, the worlds first temple perhaps and all that is left of a much wider community. So even 10,000 years ago we see that religious worship was central and cultures were built around this. These type of cites are being discovered with complex temples and icons of worship especially to animal gods or the shy, sun, or nature itself the elements and natural forces.

This comes around 4 or 5 thousands years earlier than we thought humans became socialised from hunter gatherers and developed sohpisticated beliefs. But it seems they were much more intelligent and had an advanced level of belief.