Christianity --> Veganism?

[Forbinator]

Hello, I'm just wondering how many people here are vegans? It would seem that based on the First Commandment, veganism would be a necessary way of living, as there is no asterisk next to it specifying circumstances or species.

Since the only way that we can justify using and killing animals for food, clothing and entertainment is for our own personal pleasure, convenience or tradition, and these uses are unnecessary, surely we are obligated to avoid these uses of animals, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

I would be interested to hear others' opinions.

 

[wannabeadesigirl]

First Commandment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which one of those are you talking about?

I think that the way we produce meat and animal product here in the US is wrong, and is against the admonition to be good stewards of the earth definitely, but it's not against any commandment to eat animal products, and according to the New Testament partaking of meat is entirely up to the individuals preference.

I don't think it is wrong to eat a cow that was born in a green field, grazed in a green field, and 15-20 minutes up to it's slaughter was still grazing in a green field. There are ways to raise sustainable meat products that don't damage the environment.

 

[Paradoxum]

By the first commandment, do you mean the sixth commandment: Do not kill/murder?

I think it is assumed that this is only meant to apply to people, since God also commands the killing of animals in the Bible.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Hello, I'm just wondering how many people here are vegans? It would seem that based on the First Commandment, veganism would be a necessary way of living, as there is no asterisk next to it specifying circumstances or species.

Since the only way that we can justify using and killing animals for food, clothing and entertainment is for our own personal pleasure, convenience or tradition, and these uses are unnecessary, surely we are obligated to avoid these uses of animals, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

I would be interested to hear others' opinions.

I don't consider veganism part of Christianity. I know some do and I can understand their viewpoint to a degree. I just don't agree with it.

That said, I see nothing UNChristian about being a vegan either. It's a personal choice for your health and other reasons and I don't think God will have an issue with it.

 

[michaelG1949]

i agree you don't have to be a vegan to be a christian. after all God was the first to kill an animal and make cloth's for adam and eve. also when he set up the sacrifices portions of different sacrifices were to be eaten. altho when i look at the list of animals we could eat, i believe there were none who ate mrat. no carnivores or scavengers.

 

[eckhart]

I am a vegan for many reasons. As an Anglican I find many conflicting values with my veganism that are quite paganistic in nature, especially with the OT. and use of meat as an offering. However we do not live in that time when a village calf would of been raised naturally feeding freely and then of od age or when the time came all of its body sacrificed and celebrated.
For this the first commandment I take as part of God - in - nature mysticism, which if you are trying to identify I can agree with, despite it being quite paganistic in its value of all nature being created and sustaining spiritual qualities. Outside of this question there is no need to for me worship nature or see that I am praying to the Lord of nature, but the Holy Spirit was dwelling over all of creation in Genesis. I love the natural world too much to destroy or mutilate it, means to ends.
I treat all beings with love and respect and believe that animals have souls as well as nervous systems that are capable of feeling pain and experiencing suffering.
I uphold the NT. when Jesus proclaimed all food is good, and therefore see no reason why I have to eat or use animal products. There is no reason to judge another let alone on their diet or lifestyle, which harbours pride and anger in the heart.
Animal Liberation touches on man's dominion over nature and so does Lynn White's Historical Roots of our Ecological Crisis.
Forgive me..

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

I'm a vegetarian. The First Commandment says "You shall not have any gods before me" ...

Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval. (Romans 14:1-4)

 

[Forbinator]

Great to see some others who are also compassionate towards other beings. As for quoting bible scriptures, there seem to be examples on both sides that contradict each other, so it's a matter of which ones "override" the others. The First Commandment (at least as I understand it to be "Thou shalt not kill") seems like a pretty good start if we're looking for something that would override all else. All animals that possess a brain are sentient, particularly birds, fish and mammals which have essentially the same nervous system and pain response that we do. This must be recognised and is currently not in our food production systems.

Some may mention that Jesus and certain disciples consumed meat. This is irrelevant as they may not have had the infrastructure needed to distribute produce from crops to everyone, or they may have been in areas where crops could not grow. In the past, and in certain areas, eating animals is essential for survival, but today in civilised society with supermarkets everywhere there is no reason to harm animals, except for the rather weak reasons of taste, convenience or tradition.

I must also respond to the claim that veganism is a "personal choice". I guess legally it is, but I see it as a matter of justice. As an example it would be absurd to say that not robbing old ladies is my personal choice, but what we do to animals for our meat, eggs and dairy inflicts a more profound and ongoing suffering than if I robbed an old lady. WhyVeg.com | For the Animals.

 

[Verve]

I guess I was raised going to farmers markets and the coop a bunch so that we knew the animals were locally raised, and that they were treated well.

My father hunted deer, my mother had a small kitchen garden, we had a rabbit hutch.
I guess being raised that way taught me that we are all loved and should be thankful for the food that is set before us.

My dad, a Buddhist, told me that I should respect the deer and give it thanks for giving it's life.

My mother, a Christian taught me that although we are thankful for the deer, the provision of meat came from God.

I don't think many children are raised this way anymore though. Many kids just think meat and dairy comes from the store. We, culturally, have a huge disconnect with our food.

If you think that everyone who raises animals for meat treats them horribly you should talk to people who naturally relax their animals, talk to them, pet them, prior to killing them.

There is someone who lets people go over to her farm to hug and pet her free range veal calves.

My thoughts on it are that if you are vegan, it's a choice. I myself was vegetarian for a few years, for personal reasons rather than broader ethical concerns. If you want to hear that story you can rep me and I'll share it.

I try and buy meat from places that don't shoot up their animals with hormones and am thankful for the provision that crosses my table.

Pretty sure most of the issues we have are involved with that cultural disconnection. If most people had to prepare their food from living animal to meat on their plates...they'd probably give up burgers.


Edit: Though I am going to add here that I am anti-monsanto. Even vegans consume their GMO products that are causing issues all over the world with illness from chemical use.

There are many links online if you are unaware of what they are doing to this planet.

 

[Glas Ridire]

Great to see some others who are also compassionate towards other beings. As for quoting bible scriptures, there seem to be examples on both sides that contradict each other, so it's a matter of which ones "override" the others.

Not really, no. There are no contradictions in the Bible, only failures to understand context or the use of weak translations (a comment on the quality of translation not the reader, any time one reads something translated out of other languages some meanings get "lost" or there are issues of word choice). Of course those of us that have taken the time to learn to read original languages aren't plagued with that second problem.

The First Commandment (at least as I understand it to be "Thou shalt not kill")

It isn't in the Bible. Is this a first commandment as found in some other document?

Some may mention that Jesus and certain disciples consumed meat.

According to the Nicene Creed which can be found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
Jesus was sacrificed for us . . . in order to do that He had to be sinless. If everything was made by Him, Hebrews 1:1-2 then surely he could have made whatever food He and the disciples needed. We read the story of the feeding of the 5000 and he gave people loaves AND fishes. Would Jesus not be causing all those people to sin by feeding them fish? I am saying this because your statement is blatantly illogical.

I must also respond to the claim that veganism is a "personal choice". I guess legally it is, but I see it as a matter of justice.

You have the right to that opinion, but it has nothing to do with Christianity or justice, neither for it nor against it. It is a matter of conscience for you and that is groovy & respectable. . . . but it is no different from the choice that I have no jeans in my wardrobe. Not one pair. I don't wear them, I don't buy them just as you may choose not to eat or buy meat. Dressing it up as righteous and holy is unnecessary, unless you need to, to convince yourself that your choice is worthwhile. I just don't wear jeans, I don't have any holy reasons, I don't need any I am just more comfortable wearing other things. If something in your lifestyle is so onerous that you have to dress it up with spirituality to make it palatable, it might not be a healthy choice.

As an example it would be absurd to say that not robbing old ladies is my personal choice, but what we do to animals for our meat, eggs and dairy inflicts a more profound and ongoing suffering than if I robbed an old lady.

Of course not robbing old ladies is a personal choice, what makes you think the people who choose to do it don't have a choice not to? You might want to try again with a better example.

 

[keith99]

Great to see some others who are also compassionate towards other beings. As for quoting bible scriptures, there seem to be examples on both sides that contradict each other, so it's a matter of which ones "override" the others. The First Commandment (at least as I understand it to be "Thou shalt not kill") seems like a pretty good start if we're looking for something that would override all else. All animals that possess a brain are sentient, particularly birds, fish and mammals which have essentially the same nervous system and pain response that we do. This must be recognised and is currently not in our food production systems.

Some may mention that Jesus and certain disciples consumed meat. This is irrelevant as they may not have had the infrastructure needed to distribute produce from crops to everyone, or they may have been in areas where crops could not grow. In the past, and in certain areas, eating animals is essential for survival, but today in civilised society with supermarkets everywhere there is no reason to harm animals, except for the rather weak reasons of taste, convenience or tradition.

I must also respond to the claim that veganism is a "personal choice". I guess legally it is, but I see it as a matter of justice. As an example it would be absurd to say that not robbing old ladies is my personal choice, but what we do to animals for our meat, eggs and dairy inflicts a more profound and ongoing suffering than if I robbed an old lady. WhyVeg.com | For the Animals.

So you are a "christian" who does not even know 10 most well known commandments and who thinks the example of Christ is easily dismissed.

You are worse than a Pharasee, at least the laws they were trying to push on ohters had scriptural support.

 

[Forbinator]

I guess I was raised going to farmers markets and the coop a bunch so that we knew the animals were locally raised, and that they were treated well.

My father hunted deer, my mother had a small kitchen garden, we had a rabbit hutch.
I guess being raised that way taught me that we are all loved and should be thankful for the food that is set before us.

My dad, a Buddhist, told me that I should respect the deer and give it thanks for giving it's life.

My mother, a Christian taught me that although we are thankful for the deer, the provision of meat came from God.

I don't think many children are raised this way anymore though. Many kids just think meat and dairy comes from the store. We, culturally, have a huge disconnect with our food.

If you think that everyone who raises animals for meat treats them horribly you should talk to people who naturally relax their animals, talk to them, pet them, prior to killing them.

There is someone who lets people go over to her farm to hug and pet her free range veal calves.

My thoughts on it are that if you are vegan, it's a choice. I myself was vegetarian for a few years, for personal reasons rather than broader ethical concerns. If you want to hear that story you can rep me and I'll share it.

I try and buy meat from places that don't shoot up their animals with hormones and am thankful for the provision that crosses my table.

Pretty sure most of the issues we have are involved with that cultural disconnection. If most people had to prepare their food from living animal to meat on their plates...they'd probably give up burgers.


Edit: Though I am going to add here that I am anti-monsanto. Even vegans consume their GMO products that are causing issues all over the world with illness from chemical use.

There are many links online if you are unaware of what they are doing to this planet.

Some good points here, and I agree that the main problem is society's disconnect between reality and their plates. I also agree that there is a minority of farming operations that are less intensive, but it's important to realise that the majority of animal products that are available for consumption are factory farmed, and with the current demand for these products, the factory farming is in fact necessary, so the solution of purchasing "only free-range" or "humane meat" or whatever other slogan there is, is not a viable solution for our society, as there simply is not enough room to farm that many animals without using factory farming.

I have to also comment on the idea of respecting the animal, or petting it and singing lullabies to it, before violently killing it. This does not compute. Respecting the animal would be allowing it to live a full and free life (or not breeding them to be killed in the first place). Acts of violence are never respectful, and the concept of humane killing is industry propaganda. Whether free-range, organic or factory farmed, they all end up on the same rack at the slaughterhouse, where they cannot possibly stun all animals effectively before they feel the knife go through their necks.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There's nothing in the bible that would suggest that being a vegan is right or wrong.

It does warn people about others who tell them to abstain from meats.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Based on this verse, I think we can make a distinction.

Someone who makes the personal choice to not eat meat but doesn't force it on others? Fine

People like PETAs who command people (or try to) abstain from me? Wrong.


...for whatever it's worth coming from an evil atheist like myself

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Actually if you read the bible it calls vegetables eaters weak in faith.

Romans 14:2
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Of course this verse is followed by the verse that says do not judge each other on what you eat because that does not matter.

 

[Forbinator]

Of course not robbing old ladies is a personal choice, what makes you think the people who choose to do it don't have a choice not to? You might want to try again with a better example.

Fair enough, I might need to explain myself better here. When a person claims that something is his/her "personal choice", what they are really saying is that they have a certain right or entitlement to either possibility of that choice. If we use this interpretation, then if we consider robbing an old lady to be a "personal choice" then we are saying that we have an entitlement to that lady's money, which I think you'd agree we don't.

So, given that we are not entitled to the old lady's money, what gives us the sense of entitlement that allows us to steal a newborn calf from his/her mother and then take her milk that nature intended for the calf? A mother's newborn baby is worth more to her than any amount of money. You wouldn't go into a hospital and steal newborn infants, so there is no justification for doing it to cows, who have the same hormonally driven instincts to protect their newborn young as we do. Indeed, it is a biological imperative, as the calf would not be able to survive in the first six weeks without the milk, as the rumen has not yet developed.

 

[Forbinator]

Try watching this 40 second video, and tell me again how it's your "personal choice" to eat meat: Pig castration - YouTube

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Try watching this 40 second video, and tell me again how it's your "personal choice" to eat meat:

For one we still kinda do the same thing to our boys when they are born. Also God even says we are to eat animals. Now, is the process in which they live inhumane? Most of the time yes. But it doesn't change the fact we can still eat them. Look at your veggies. They are treated inhumanly. They get pesticides and other junk put on them. Then they get processed in a rough fashion. So really you shouldn't eat those either.

Your is a personal choice, not a biblical choice. Even the bible says vegitarians have weaker faith:

Romans 14:2
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Of course this verse is followed by the verse that says do not judge each other on what you eat because that does not matter in the end. But if people want to say veggies are better then they need to look at the verse.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Try watching this 40 second video, and tell me again how it's your "personal choice" to eat meat: Pig castration - YouTube

Well, I watched the video, it's still my personal choice to eat meat.

Animals have been eating other animals forever, it's never a painless process. I also have a video of an alligator eating a deer, and a lion eating a gazelle, are they immoral as well? I'm sure the process was very painful for the deer and gazelle...

Ever see a circumcision? It's not that different.

I've seen all of the PETA scare tactic videos...and I still eat bacon

I've also seen the hypocrisy of the PETA movement in general. They sponsor people who fire bomb research facilities (ALF), while at the same time, their VP uses insulin for her diabetes (which is a direct product of animal research). Then, PETA attempts to portray the fire-bombers as if their in the same league as Martin Luther King and Ghandi in terms of activism...

 

[Eyes wide Open]

For one we still kinda do the same thing to our boys when they are born. Also God even says we are to eat animals. Now, is the process in which they live inhumane? Most of the time yes. But it doesn't change the fact we can still eat them. Look at your veggies. They are treated inhumanly. They get pesticides and other junk put on them. Then they get processed in a rough fashion. So really you shouldn't eat those either.

Your is a personal choice, not a biblical choice. Even the bible says vegitarians have weaker faith:

Romans 14:2
One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

Of course this verse is followed by the verse that says do not judge each other on what you eat because that does not matter in the end. But if people want to say veggies are better then they need to look at the verse.

It's not a judgement on what people eat, its an observation of the treatment of a sentient being, e.g one with a brain, sensory experience and a central nervous system and whether the end justifies the means. Given a veggie diet is perfectly heathly and easy to obtain in the west, the end doesn't justify the means.(IMO)
It has nothing to do with weak faith.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Well, I watched the video, it's still my personal choice to eat meat.

Animals have been eating other animals forever, it's never a painless process. I also have a video of an alligator eating a deer, and a lion eating a gazelle, are they immoral as well? I'm sure the process was very painful for the deer and gazelle...

Ever see a circumcision? It's not that different.

I've seen all of the PETA scare tactic videos...and I still eat bacon

I've also seen the hypocrisy of the PETA movement in general. They sponsor people who fire bomb research facilities (ALF), while at the same time, their VP uses insulin for her diabetes (which is a direct product of animal research). Then, PETA attempts to portray the fire-bombers as if their in the same league as Martin Luther King and Ghandi in terms of activism...

Regarding the immoral animal question, an animals brain wave function is different to that of a humans, it cannot think in the same way we do, thus it doesn't have the ability to 'create' as we do, nor does it have the choices we do, therefore there is no 'moral' standard to answer.