Christianity --> Veganism?

[TheDag]

While we do have the element of choice that some other animals may not (although, they do have some choice, most animals will choose to wait for prey rather than eat their own young)

In terms of choice, yes, we can choose what to eat and not eat, however we can't choose the impact (positive and negative) that different foods have on our body. For example, you can't "choose" to get 60g of protein from 1 serving of carrots.

Many folks who embrace the vegan diet often need to take certain supplements to get things that they can't get out of their food, or they're protein deficient (especially if they're active or into working out).

The rule of thumb is 1g of protein per pound of body weight.

So for a person who's 200 lbs (I figured we'd use a nice even number)

100 servings of Kale
or
16 servings of beans
or
20 servings of tofu
or
15 servings of soy milk
or
800 almonds
or
Chicken for lunch & Beef for dinner

Which sounds the most practical? Chicken & Beef...
(in fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who has room in their stomach or the kind of appetite it would take to eat 100 servings of kale)

Getting protein is not a problem for anyone unless they have a problem with their body which causes it to struggle to get protein. Protein is in almost everything we eat. What vegans do have trouble getting is the good quality protein that you only find in meat. My wife had excellent protein & iron levels and everything else. Calcium is a bigger concern imo as the body uses calcium to help remove excess protein from the body so it is difficult to have enough calcium after the body has used it. Two serves of dairy a day does not cut it. Dairy generally has alot of protein in it as well hence why it is not a good source of calcium as most of it goes towards getting rid of protein.
By the way my wife knew levels in her body through multiple tests requested by Dr's who all automatically decided her lack of energy was due to her diet. It was only when she became pregnant that we found out she needed open heart surgery to fix heart problems which is what caused the tiredness.

 

[TheDag]

Slavery is not a good analogy. It could be VERY offensive to lets say an African American.

I find it offensive when people steal from me. Lets tell the police and courts not to ever mention stealing or anything that means the same thing again because i might be offended! I disagree with eating meat is not moral but you honestly seem to have no idea what an anology is. If you do you seem determined to deliberately miss the point just to create argument or some other silly reason.

 

[eckhart]

Getting protein is not a problem for anyone unless they have a problem with their body which causes it to struggle to get protein. Protein is in almost everything we eat. What vegans do have trouble getting is the good quality protein that you only find in meat. My wife had excellent protein & iron levels and everything else. Calcium is a bigger concern imo as the body uses calcium to help remove excess protein from the body so it is difficult to have enough calcium after the body has used it. Two serves of dairy a day does not cut it. Dairy generally has alot of protein in it as well hence why it is not a good source of calcium as most of it goes towards getting rid of protein.
By the way my wife knew levels in her body through multiple tests requested by Dr's who all automatically decided her lack of energy was due to her diet. It was only when she became pregnant that we found out she needed open heart surgery to fix heart problems which is what caused the tiredness.

Do not doubt that The Lord would not provide for you calcium and protein within plant's.
Carob Pod= Calcium. and it tastes like cocoa.
Peanut butter (all nuts and beans) = Protein.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

Getting protein is not a problem for anyone unless they have a problem with their body which causes it to struggle to get protein. Protein is in almost everything we eat. What vegans do have trouble getting is the good quality protein that you only find in meat. My wife had excellent protein & iron levels and everything else. Calcium is a bigger concern imo as the body uses calcium to help remove excess protein from the body so it is difficult to have enough calcium after the body has used it. Two serves of dairy a day does not cut it. Dairy generally has alot of protein in it as well hence why it is not a good source of calcium as most of it goes towards getting rid of protein.
By the way my wife knew levels in her body through multiple tests requested by Dr's who all automatically decided her lack of energy was due to her diet. It was only when she became pregnant that we found out she needed open heart surgery to fix heart problems which is what caused the tiredness.

I don't know the relevant intake but Chia seed has a very high calcium amount in relation to its weight. Also good quality protein isn't just in meat, in fact you are implying that meat has 'good' quality whilst other sources perhaps less so. Meat is a complete food source meaning it carries the 8/9 amino acid proteins not manufactured by the body. Chia seed and Hemp seed are both complete food sources carrying these proteins. These are the 'good' proteins as they are not manufactured by the body. They can be found in other non meat food sources but not grouped together as 'complete'.

 

[Verv]

You can lead a healthy lifestyle as a vegan or vegetarian. It is not a big deal at all. Rather, it is a common myth.

However, there are still a lot of places where it is highly inconvenient or it becomes prohibitively expensive. In places like India or San Francisco it can be done conveniently and cheaply while in places like Seoul or Novosibirsk you will find yourself with a bit of a challenge to your convenience and probably also some financial strain if you are not at least middle class.

 

[Forbinator]

I find it offensive when people steal from me. Lets tell the police and courts not to ever mention stealing or anything that means the same thing again because i might be offended! I disagree with eating meat is not moral but you honestly seem to have no idea what an anology is. If you do you seem determined to deliberately miss the point just to create argument or some other silly reason.

Well done, I think you explained this better than I was able to!

 

[HighwayMan]

The issue is not so much a religious issue, or even a diet issue for that matter. I am a vegetarian, but I understand that some cultures in certain time periods really needed, and some still do, to hunt animals to survive.

But beyond that, this is one of the issues why I want nothing to do with the human race in general. I'm sorry. I can not stomach it. I can not accept how animals are treated, I can not accept how utterly apathetic people are toward them, I can not accept a single ounce of that. Yes most of my friends eat meat, I try to ignore it as best I can, but I can't stop it from bothering me. If I brainwashed myself I could probably have a more peaceful and popular existence, but then it would simply not be true. The fact of that matter is, no matter what happens in life, no matter where I go, who I meet, anything and everything, deep down I will always hate being part of this human race whose treatment of animals is nothing short of an abomination. I don't mean to be a horrible disagreeable person. But when you live on a planet where one species exploits and destroys all others, and that goes against every single last moral stance that you hold, you are doomed to live in a nightmarish world that seems smiles and lollipops on the outside but is a den of hell on the inside.

And for the record, God in the Bible said that people should be stewards of all creation - taking care of something that is not ours. Not throw them into slaughterhouses to be subject to intense torture with death being the merciful end.

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

The issue is not so much a religious issue, or even a diet issue for that matter. I am a vegetarian, but I understand that some cultures in certain time periods really needed, and some still do, to hunt animals to survive.

But beyond that, this is one of the issues why I want nothing to do with the human race in general. I'm sorry. I can not stomach it. I can not accept how animals are treated, I can not accept how utterly apathetic people are toward them, I can not accept a single ounce of that. Yes most of my friends eat meat, I try to ignore it as best I can, but I can't stop it from bothering me. If I brainwashed myself I could probably have a more peaceful and popular existence, but then it would simply not be true. The fact of that matter is, no matter what happens in life, no matter where I go, who I meet, anything and everything, deep down I will always hate being part of this human race whose treatment of animals is nothing short of an abomination. I don't mean to be a horrible disagreeable person. But when you live on a planet where one species exploits and destroys all others, and that goes against every single last moral stance that you hold, you are doomed to live in a nightmarish world that seems smiles and lollipops on the outside but is a den of hell on the inside.

And for the record, God in the Bible said that people should be stewards of all creation - taking care of something that is not ours. Not throw them into slaughterhouses to be subject to intense torture with death being the merciful end.

I feel much the same way.

 

[BlueLioness]

It isn't in the Bible. Is this a first commandment as found in some other document?

What version of the Bible are you reading? It is in the King James Version of the bible:

Exd 20:13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.
Deu 5:17 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.

My church is KJV-Onlyist because we are aware that some modern translations of the Bible have entire verses edited out of them, which from our point of view does not really make it GOD's Word. It's like removing pieces of a puzzle, and still insisting that you are getting a whole puzzle.

It's almost like Satan has tampered with these newer versions by removing whole verses of the Textus Receptus. That being said, it's almost like you are missing pieces of GOD's Word and you are not getting the whole Bible that is supposed to be there. Sorry about this, it's deceitful.

These mistakes, fortunately, have been caught by the scholars working for us. They advised me not to purchase or read the New International version, and I followed their advice, so I don't own that version of the Holy Bible.

 

[TheDag]

What version of the Bible are you reading? It is in the King James Version of the bible:

Exd 20:13 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.
Deu 5:17 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.

so the bible contradicts itself then?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The First Commandment (at least as I understand it to be "Thou shalt not kill") seems like a pretty good start if we're looking for something that would override all else.

That's commandment #6, and it says "thou shalt not murder/kill unlawfully".

Several people have already pointed that out to you, so why do you keep insisting that it's the first commandment? Unless you start counting in the middle, there's NO way to place this at the top of the list.

I think the biblical case for veganism is pretty weak, as the Bible contains extensive instructions on how to slaughter animals and which parts of them are to be eaten. Even in the New Testament, we see Jesus catching lots of fish, attending traditional feasts, etc.

Now, the *moral* case for veganism is a different one, and although I consider veganism to be over-the-top, I share their disgust at the industrialized meat industry, and boycott it just as much as they do.
I do not consider it wrong to kill other species for food (and pelts, leather, etc.) in and of itself. But I do consider it wrong to treat them like inanimate objects, to turn their very existence into a living hell, and to overconsume animal products.

Meat should be a luxury item: it'd be MUCH better for everyone involved, the animals and ourselves included.

 

[keith99]

Does that mean you don't partake of the Eucharist? ;-)

Interesting point as if I recall correctly Catholic doctrine is it does become the actual blood and body of Christ. Not a symbol, the real thing.

If one claims to be Catholic and does not believe this I see a problem. If they claim ot be Vegan and eat human flesh I see a problem.

 

[keith99]

That's commandment #6, and it says "thou shalt not murder/kill unlawfully".

Several people have already pointed that out to you, so why do you keep insisting that it's the first commandment? Unless you start counting in the middle, there's NO way to place this at the top of the list.

I think the biblical case for veganism is pretty weak, as the Bible contains extensive instructions on how to slaughter animals and which parts of them are to be eaten. Even in the New Testament, we see Jesus catching lots of fish, attending traditional feasts, etc.

Now, the *moral* case for veganism is a different one, and although I consider veganism to be over-the-top, I share their disgust at the industrialized meat industry, and boycott it just as much as they do.
I do not consider it wrong to kill other species for food (and pelts, leather, etc.) in and of itself. But I do consider it wrong to treat them like inanimate objects, to turn their very existence into a living hell, and to overconsume animal products.

Meat should be a luxury item: it'd be MUCH better for everyone involved, the animals and ourselves included.

Just a small point, picking you mainly because your post is last. But I like pointing this out when responding to someone like you who is secure and might possibly even like the bit of trivia.

Only the Frist Commandment is agreed upon. The one that is most often stated (incorrectly as you have pointed out) as Thou shalt not kill is the 5th as the Catholics count them.

 

[Skaloop]

I guess I was raised going to farmers markets and the coop a bunch so that we knew the animals were locally raised, and that they were treated well.

How does being killed fit in to being treated well? Sure, they might be treated better than some other animals up until the point they are killed, but either way, in the end, they are killed when they don't need to be. The animals that died for the meat at the farmer's market were treated better, but they were not treated well.

If one murder victim was tortured for weeks before being brutally killed, but another was given comfortable housing before being brutally killed, does that lessen the brutality? Does it make the second situation acceptable because the victim was treated well?

 

[JGL53]

Christianity -- > Veganism?

This "debate" has been going on for ten pages? Are you kidding me?

Uh - Jesus multiplied the fishes (and the loaves) to feed the multitude.

Case closed.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't know if there is a Biblical case for veganism but there is for eating much better than the American diet. The way food is processed in America is appalling.

I do believe there are strong health reasons for eating vegan and it is better for the planet. In that respect, the Biblical case would be taking care of your temple (body) and being a good steward of the world.

 

[JGL53]

I don't know if there is a Biblical case for veganism but there is for eating much better than the American diet. The way food is processed in America is appalling.

I do believe there are strong health reasons for eating vegan and it is better for the planet. In that respect, the Biblical case would be taking care of your temple (body) and being a good steward of the world.

And eat fish. Apparently.

 

[TheDag]

And eat fish. Apparently.

Jesus was a wise steward. He fed 5000 with a few fish and loaves of bread!

Question is Is it wise to use one third of fish caught for feeding animals for us to eat? While one can say no moral problem with eating fish there can be a moral problem with the way we use fish these days that they did not in Jesus day.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I do believe there are strong health reasons for eating vegan and it is better for the planet. In that respect, the Biblical case would be taking care of your temple (body) and being a good steward of the world.

And those reasons are?

Typically, a vegan diet means a diet higher in carbohydrates...which is the real enemy of American dietary health. The fine folks at the US government (when creating the food pyramid with cherry-picked "scientists") decided that the core of a healthy human diet was dependent on something humans didn't eat for thousands of years...grains. The guidelines for their "heart healthy diet" consists of 300 grams of carbs per day...and people wonder why their diet isn't working .

They made everyone afraid of animal fats (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with) and told everyone to fill up on bread and vegetable oils.

I shared this in the weight loss forum as well, but I tried the Dr. Eades diet that the creator of the documentary "Fathead" tried out.

Breakfast: 3 eggs, 4 strips of bacon, water
Lunch: Either Grilled Chicken or Burgers minus the buns, carrot or broccoli
Dinner: Fish or Ribeye (well marbled), broccoli, half cup of berries.

In 2 months, I went from 215 down to 175, and my cholesterol shifted from 140/48 to 105/62.

I'm in maintenance mode now so I do the diet above 5 days a week, and eat whatever I want on the other 2 days...however, with what I was eating, according to the "experts", I should've ballooned up in weight and my LDL should've gone through the roof, but that didn't happen.

 

[TheDag]

Typically, a vegan diet means a diet higher in carbohydrates...which is the real enemy of American dietary health.

So why have I never seen an obese vegan if it is such a bad diet?

The only time I have seen an overweight vegetarian* is one who had a really sweet tooth and ate way too much dessert.

*Vegetarian is used here as vegetarian not a pretend vegetarian. This means not eating meat including white meat and seafood.
A person who claims to be vegetarian yet eats white meat is not a vegetarian but rather just a person who doesn't eat red meat.