Christianity and Accountability

[Nihilist Virus]

Relevant to what...?

Accountability in Christianity.

I thought it was pretty relevant...?

Nope.

Paul also talks about how it is not Christians jobs to judge those on the "outside" also, but only within their own body of believers, etc, and I think also implies also only when we must, etc. Jesus was only sent to the Jews only, etc, was not out rebuking "all of the people" and everyone in the world, etc...

Irrelevant.

But how many people, how many so-called Christians, think it is their own exclusive job to judge everyone and everything and all the people in and/or of the world, etc...?

Anyway, really gets to me sometimes...

I'm not talking about you judging others. I'm talking about your own personal accountability.

Were supposed to be afraid for our own souls when we judge, or only when and where we have to judge, etc, and only judge when and where we have to only, and only within our own body of believers only, etc...

Paul's letters were to his churches that he started, not the whole entire world, etc... I mean yeah, we have books like Romans, etc, but that was because he kind of sparked a fire with some of the people to believe there, etc, and he was a Roman, etc...

Anyway,

Oh, and, your welcome BTW...

God Bless!

Could you please stick to the topic? Thanks.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If you didn't know, Christian societies also have prisons, so those societies would have held him responsible the same way - send him to prison (or capital punishment).

Every society on earth does the same thing. Is there anything that Christianity has that everyone else lacks?

It was Progressives, not Christians who pursued most of the modern ideas of rehabilitation that are meant to provide alternatives to shame, penal institutions, etc.

Are you implying that progressives want to forego punishment and skip to rehabilitation? Because from what I know, they merely want to separate punishment from rehabilitation so that rehabilitation can actually succeed. In other words, you do your time, then you're rehabilitated; as it currently is, you do your time while being rehabilitated, and they're pointing out (with recidivism statistics) that this simply doesn't work.

It seems though, that you're not asking if Christians hold him accountable, but if God does.

I said Christianity, not Christians. That is, if Christianity is true, then how is he held accountable beyond the reaches of secular society? God could hold him accountable, yes, or there could be some system within Christianity that forces accountability.

That is not correct. We don't know his eternal fate.

Irrelevant. We can easily just use a thought experiment instead of the real-life example and insist, in the thought experiment, that the Dahmer-like character goes to heaven and that the Salk-like character goes to hell. Nothing changes.

But to answer your question, all sin is punished.

That doesn't answer the question. There's no personal accountability if Christ is punished for all sin.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Your wrong their is a difference between "escaping the fire" and having something to show for it in the end.


1 Corinthians 3:

King James Version
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Yes, great points, thanks. However, I am of the impression that Jesus trumps Paul when they are in disagreement. So you would need to explain why my interpretation of the parable in Matthew 20 is invalid. Good luck with that!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

In the arguments you are referring to it is accountability after death: judgement.

Judgement Day will be a kangaroo court. Men will not be held accountable for their deeds, but merely on if they confessed Christ as savior.

Yes, God punishes sin (as Resha said).

Irrelevant. As I told him,

That doesn't answer the question. There's no personal accountability if Christ is punished for all sin.

Not only is this not how accountability works, this is not what accountability is. You are talking about reward here, not accountability. Equivocation.

The point was made to show that accountability is fully perverted in Christianity, to the point that Jeffrey Dahmer is likely in heaven and Jonas Salk is likely in hell. A man's actions, aside from professing Christ as savior, are absolutely irrelevant to eternity.

Regardless, removing Salk from the argument does not diminish my point.

Yes, judgement after death. This should be obvious.

And it should be obvious that it's a kangaroo court.

Huh...?

What part of "no accountability whatsoever" are you not getting?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I think what Nihilist Virus is wanting to know is when various pedo-phile priests are going to "get theirs" from God ...

More or less, yes.

The answer would be either purgatory or hell.

But wouldn't that be a problem that a sufficient number of Hail Marys should fix?

I'm thinking NV prefers to see something happen on a more terrestrial level. But I could be wrong.

On earth or in heaven - just any kind of accountability whatsoever as long as it goes beyond what secular society has to offer.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Yes, in that version of Christianity you gave, I agree with you that the outcome isn't fair. That's correct.

In that version.

But, there's a Real Version (it's less easy to simplify into a doctrine though). Here's a central part --

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
Romans 2 NIV

@Pavel Mosko made a similar point. I'll copy/paste the same response here.

Yes, great points, thanks. However, I am of the impression that Jesus trumps Paul when they are in disagreement. So you would need to explain why my interpretation of the parable in Matthew 20 is invalid. Good luck with that!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Sharing some of NV's sentiments, it's more that the supposed "punishment" is in an unfalsifiable context of an afterlife,

For the purposes of the thread, I'm happy to presuppose that Christianity is true.

rather than addressing the issues in some meaningful sense now or at least condemning them rightfully as doing wrong, even if it's after the fact. We're not necessarily desiring absolute justice, since that becomes unrealistic and relies on unrealistic ideas to resolve the problem of injustices left unpunished in the world as we see it

Basically, the conversation goes like this:

Christian: Atheists have no accountability.

Atheist: We have court systems and prisons.

Christian: You know what I mean. Beyond this life. One could lead an immoral life and never see the inside of a cell. Where's the justice there?

Atheist: OK. But you could live like Jeffrey Dahmer, convert before you die, and then go to heaven. Where's the justice there?

Christian: Dahmer went to prison, didn't he?

Atheist rolls eyes and walks away.

Actually, in a inverted way, I can empathize with @Nihilist Virus. It's just that WHERE I'd like to see the gavel fall isn't where he'd like for it to fall ... and we've had some of this type of conversation elsewhere on another one of my apologetics threads.

Where did I say anything beyond asking where the accountability is?

Besides, as for this whole thread, we might keep in mind that little bit Paul said to the Corinthian church about "taking the Lord's Communion in an unworthy manner." Apparently, there were (more or less) some terrestrial penalties manifesting upon those who claimed to be Christian at that time. I'm guessing that sometimes similar penalties are taking place upon Christians today who, shall we say, mis-behave to ardently.

I'm not too concerned with violation of Christian ritual. I'm talking about things that we can all agree are wrong, like murder.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Here is his argument as I read it:

1. If Christianity contained more accountability than atheism then Christianity would contain some level of accountability.
2. Christianity contains no accountability
   1. Christianity rewards belief and "conversion," not moral behavior
3. Therefore atheism and Christianity contain the same level of accountability: zero. ("There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.")

Thanks for the accurate and charitable interpretation. Or the steelman, as they say.

Note, though, that NV is interested in the afterlife:

Yep. Right again.

To simplify the whole thing, NV thinks deathbed conversions of immoral people allow them to avoid accountability for their evil actions. I respond that he ignores purgatory.

Yes, I have ignored purgatory. What are the formal rules of it?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I mean, being punished by excommunication is more the religious punishment versus imprisonment and such for misdeeds done under religious auspices

The problem with that is you're only excommunicated for sacrilege, heresy, or some other offense to Christianity, but not for a legitimate moral offense. Legitimate moral offenses landed you in prison, even back then.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

1. 
   
   

Not sure NV is claiming atheism has 0 accountability, that's you insinuating that into the conclusion, when the conclusion is merely that Christianity has less accountability than what they'd likely argue atheism has in contrast.


And that 1st premise is messily phrased: basically he thinks that a system worth being considered true would have accountability if it's supposed to be ethical at its core
Note, though, that NV is interested in the afterlife:













Not sure purgatory is as common as you think, but that seems to just shift the goalposts so your soteriology can account for things that otherwise would create contradictions

Atheism is technically just the answer to one question: do you believe in any gods? Often times, though, when one says "atheism" they're referring to secular humanism as a monolith. I was ambiguous as to what I actually meant. Because he's having me place equal accountability in both worldviews (atheism and Christianity), he's being fair enough - even if he places it at zero. Regardless, as long as it is equal, it is a charitable interpretation.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Oh, I don't know about that. As I mentioned above, there are places in the New Testament in which we find at least some minimal indication that, sometimes, God DOES put His little finger down on a Christian or two, here or there, in THIS life. And if He does, then I'd count that as a form of accountability.

I was going to respond, but @zippy2006 replied perfectly below in his first paragraph before the "edit."

I suppose the natural answer would be that justice in the form of accountability cannot be circumscribed to "sometimes," or "one or two." The thrust of the OP is that there are some people who do terrible things in this life and are never punished for it. That there are others who do terrible things and are punished doesn't really answer the quandary about the first group.

Edit: Technically I believe the purgatory-denying-Protestant could respond by pointing to Hell. Even if we admit NV's loophole for the sake of argument, Protestant Christianity still has more accountability than atheism due to the fact that atheism has no Hell.

There's a problem with your "edit." Actually, a massive problem.

Suppose I assumed the position of supreme ruler of New America and decided to hold the people accountable. The majority of crimes are unsolved, I reason, and so we need to dispense more punishment to create more accountability.

Is it pursuant to accountability if I punish all members of one political party, and not the other? Or everyone whose last name starts with a consonant? Or everyone who has refused to pledge fealty to me?

With regards to moral accountability, these punishments are quite simply random. Statistically, I expect the "meter of morality" to be roughly equal in both the punished group and unpunished group regardless of which method from above I choose. And as I've shown in this thread, separating those who confess Christ from those who don't similarly fails to move the "meter of morality" in either direction. We should expect heaven and hell to be filled with the same blend of people. That's not how accountability works.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Well, as far as Christianity is concerned about accountability, I'd think it'd be better for NV to vet the entire N.T. for various comments about who, what, when, where, and how God might see fit to hold some one individual accountable. I'm not sure he's doing this, logic or no logic. He can say that God isn't asserting accountability, but it might turn out to be MORE accurate to say that God isn't asserting accountability upon various folks in the WAY that NV would like for it to be asserted ...

Nope. I've vetted it. As was mentioned above, there's the odd smiting, but no system in place. There's no accountability there. None of any form. It's not just that the "kind I prefer" is lacking... whatever it is you think that might be... but that there's absolutely nothing there at all.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

@Carl Emerson,

Thanks for replying but, to be honest, the vast majority of what you're saying is gibberish to me.

Just because the gospel is "foolishness to men" doesn't mean you can just spout any kind of foolishness you want and then claim to be speaking with the Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Atheist: OK. But you could live like Jeffrey Dahmer, convert before you die, and then go to heaven. Where's the justice there?

It doesn't work like that.

By Grace you are saved trough faith - not of yourself - it is a gift of God.

Conversion comes from repentance and that is a gift as well.

Conversion is not a decision of the will.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, great points, thanks. However, I am of the impression that Jesus trumps Paul when they are in disagreement. So you would need to explain why my interpretation of the parable in Matthew 20 is invalid. Good luck with that!

It's a free country and your welcome to whatever theological interpretation you want no matter how wrong it is....

As far as Christianity goes Paul's writings are authoritative. He was a theological clarifier of issues back in the day (of the NT being written) and is so even more so today.


As far as your challenge goes, your interpretation is invalid because they while they do get the same thing as far as the basic gist of things goes (Both people escape Gehenna and get eternal bliss) there are nuances... And to say differently is a bit of a strawman.

1) Hopefully you have some background in philosophy, but if not you should learn about Stoicism and the commonalities between Christian thought and it (which are several). In Stoicism the ideal of life was to live a noble life according to the 4 cardinal virtues (wisdom, morality, courage, and moderation). In Christianity the viewpoint is much the same, except their is a unique theology that goes with the philosophy and of course the list of virtues is different based on Bible passages rather than Hellenic culture.

Anyway if you don't know about Stoicism then you really should study it. If you don't then its almost a waste of time talking to Christians on why they think this or that when Stoic like thinking tends to be at root of much of what they say and do.




2) There are other kinds of objections that I could make on why your opinion is wrong based on A) what the Bible says empirically speaking on subjects like this etc. or B) based on how theology has been conducted in the Judeo-Christian Tradition for the last 2700 years or so (going back to at least King Hezekiah of ancient Israel), but for the time being I won't bother with that.

(OK on second thought I will add this brief easy objection)

But back to your original point, there are some passages in the Bible that suggest that not all people will be equal in heaven like Matthew 18:1, Matthew 20:21, Revelation 4:10, so I see not reason on why saint Paul is wrong in 1 Corinthians 3... Especially when God promises in both the OT & NT to repay unto us "according to our deeds" numerous times.



Matthew 25:14-30
14 ¶For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[FireDragon76]

It sounds like @Nihilist Virus issue is mostly with Evangelicalism/traditionalist Protestantism. Catholics have been more willing to admit that people have a certain liberty of conscience concerning religion, and Pope Francis remarks about atheists a few years ago clarify this further.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It doesn't work like that.

Yes it does.

By Grace you are saved trough faith - not of yourself - it is a gift of God.

That's the entire point. That's the entire reason I am calling accountability into question.

Conversion comes from repentance and that is a gift as well.

Conversion is not a decision of the will.

All that does is even further remove accountability from the issue. This whole time I've been saying that there is no accountability in Christianity aside from confessing Christ as savior. You're now saying we can remove that qualifier. There is now absolutely no accountability whatsoever. Are we in agreement?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It's a free country and your welcome to whatever theological interpretation you want no matter how wrong it is....

As far as Christianity goes Paul's writings are authoritative. He was a theological clarifier of issues back in the day (of the NT being written) and is so even more so today.


As far as your challenge goes, your interpretation is invalid because they while they do get the same thing as far as the basic gist of things goes (Both people escape Gehenna and get eternal bliss) there are nuances... And to say differently is a bit of a strawman.

1) Hopefully you have some background in philosophy, but if not you should learn about Stoicism and the commonalities between Christian thought and it (which are several). In Stoicism the ideal of life was to live a noble life according to the 4 cardinal virtues (wisdom, morality, courage, and moderation). In Christianity the viewpoint is much the same, except their is a unique theology that goes with the philosophy and of course the list of virtues is different based on Bible passages rather than Hellenic culture.

Anyway if you don't know about Stoicism then you really should study it. If you don't then its almost a waste of time talking to Christians on why they think this or that when Stoic like thinking tends to be at root of much of what they say and do.




2) There are other kinds of objections that I could make on why your opinion is wrong based on A) what the Bible says empirically speaking on subjects like this etc. or B) based on how theology has been conducted in the Judeo-Christian Tradition for the last 2700 years or so (going back to at least King Hezekiah of ancient Israel), but for the time being I won't bother with that.

(OK on second thought I will add this brief easy objection)

But back to your original point, there are some passages in the Bible that suggest that not all people will be equal in heaven like Matthew 18:1, Matthew 20:21, Revelation 4:10, so I see not reason on why saint Paul is wrong in 1 Corinthians 3... Especially when God promises in both the OT & NT to repay unto us "according to our deeds" numerous times.



Matthew 25:14-30
14 ¶For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, great points, but you're still not addressing my point. It's no skin off my back if the Bible contradicts itself. Since the whole thing is supposed to be authoritative, I just have to find one parable and force the issue. You refuse to address it, so you surrender the right to say I'm wrong.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Again, great points, but you're still not addressing my point. It's no skin off my back if the Bible contradicts itself. Since the whole thing is supposed to be authoritative, I just have to find one parable and force the issue. You refuse to address it, so you surrender the right to say I'm wrong.

Ah but I did your point was "There is no accountability in Christianity".


Being a card carrying atheist who talks/ debates with Christians I'm sure you know about Logical Fallacies.... Such things as Overgeneralization, Hasty Generalization etc. to name a few that are on point.


By the way, I don't even think you understand what most Christians even believe in regards to the Bible and its inspiration seeing how you seem to be aping the kind of proof texting that some Biblical Fundamentalist would do, which might reflect how some people around here operate, but not most of us obviously.

 

[Halbhh]

@Pavel Mosko made a similar point. I'll copy/paste the same response here.

Yes, great points, thanks. However, I am of the impression that Jesus trumps Paul when they are in disagreement. So you would need to explain why my interpretation of the parable in Matthew 20 is invalid. Good luck with that!

They're not in disagreement.

There's a reason the gospels are more than 4 chapters and Paul's letter to the Romans more than 2 chapters. It's not filler.