Christianity and Accountability

[2PhiloVoid]

Trade it for a billion dollars? My hypothesis is not asking you to sell your soul or accept a billion dollars to renounce Christ. Re-read.

I did read it! It's just that I don't equate your over-blown billion dollar analogy with me, or any other Christian, considering it a sin if we don't give up everything in some kind of impractical, nihilistically directed way.

 

[Resha Caner]

Wasn't a waste of time. I had a chuckle writing that.

Yes, I realize your purpose here is attempted mockery.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Well, if I had time to read every single post that every single other poster here posted, whether friend or fiend, I wouldn't get anything else in life done, now would I?

You asked me who said it. I answered. Now you lecture me on it. Lol.

....I don't know what 10 o'clock news you watch, but I've seen stories where a pastor here and a youth pastor there, or a Christian teacher here or atheist teacher there, got hauled off to jail for some serious offense (sometimes for 'touching' others of various ages inappropriately). It's just that we're not seeing the Catholic church getting vetted in the same way that smaller churches (usually much smaller) have and do.

That's secular justice. You have not been reading the thread.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Christians aren't accountable to the US government. That's for sure. They don't pay their taxes. Even though Jesus told them to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

So then, according to you, there are ZERO Christians keeping cozy in a jail or prison cell anywhere and they haven't done so at any time? Is that what you're trying to say, NV?

As for Caesar: ... in the U.S., all "Caesar" has to do is change his mind through enough lobbying, social pushing and engineering, and minor adjustments to the legal system over some amount of time (a few decades or so) as the population turns its back on Christ. And then, voilà! Christians will pay taxes to Caesar!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You asked me who said it. I answered. Now you lecture me on it. Lol.



That's secular justice. You have not been reading the thread.

I don't metaphysically differentiate on all of this like you do: you see, even if today's pluralistically minded people choose to separate Churches and States in order to Liberate "us" from 'times past,' this doesn't mean that it's all actually separated or will, seemingly, remain separated from new forms of so-called social accountability that Liberals dream up ... or that Christians, therefore, won't ever have to eventually pay taxes to retain and maintain the further privilege of worshiping their [our] God.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So then, according to you, there are ZERO Christians keeping cozy in a jail or prison cell anywhere and they haven't done so at any time? Is that what you're trying to say, NV?

Not what I'm saying at all. That's secular society. Atheists and Christians are equally accountable to that. Christians argue something like this:

There are many unsolved crimes. You could live your whole life and never get caught. Under atheism, there's no accountability there. Under Christianity, we are all accountable to God.

This is not a strawman. It's a genuine argument I've heard many times. And I've thrashed it.

As for Caesar: ... in the U.S., all "Caesar" has to do is change his mind through enough lobbying, social pushing and engineering, and minor adjustments to the legal system over some amount of time (a few decades or so) as the population turns its back on Christ. And then, voilà! Christians will pay taxes to Caesar!

Yeah. You'd do it if you were forced to. Jesus telling you to do it is simply not enough motivation.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Yes, I realize your purpose here is attempted mockery.

It's you who mocks. I remember checking myself out of serious conversation with you when you mocked @cvanwey in a very long post, that had parts that went something like this:

Resha Caner: I believe in the 10 commandments.

cvanwey: You're a rapist.

Resha Caner: Beg your pardon?

cvanwey: 2&n÷^@nnv%kj@&*Kwjehs%


Was that not mocking? I'm guessing you'll pretend to not know what I'm talking about, of course.

When I say that Christianity is the hijacking of Judaism, it's a serious statement. Chuckling or not, it is a legitimate point. Your actions I've paraphrased above were not serious. They added nothing. They were mocking.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Not what I'm saying at all. That's secular society. Atheists and Christians are equally accountable to that. Christians argue something like this:

There are many unsolved crimes. You could live your whole life and never get caught. Under atheism, there's no accountability there. Under Christianity, we are all accountable to God.

This is not a strawman. It's a genuine argument I've heard many times. And I've thrashed it.



Yeah. You'd do it if you were forced to. Jesus telling you to do it is simply not enough motivation.

Obviously, it wasn't enough for Paul ... either. If it had been, he would have told every Christian he knew to drop ALL of their possessions like hot flaming coals.

But, as far as we know, he didn't. And his writing comes BEFORE the Gospels, so..........................................................................................guess what?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I did read it! It's just that I don't equate your over-blown billion dollar analogy with me, or any other Christian, considering it a sin if we don't give up everything in some kind of impractical, nihilistically directed way.

I'm not claiming it's a sin. At least, not here. I'm saying that you clearly value a billion dollars on earth over treasures in heaven.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I don't metaphysically differentiate on all of this like you do: you see, even if today's pluralistically minded people choose to separate Churches and States in order to Liberate "us" from 'times past,' this doesn't mean that it's all actually separated or will, seemingly, remain separated from new forms of so-called social accountability that Liberals dream up ... or that Christians, therefore, won't ever have to eventually pay taxes to retain and maintain the further privilege of worshiping their [our] God.

Pay taxes for worshipping God? Sounds even worse than the "prayer is not allowed in school" lie. I'm very disappointed in you for using this line.

No one is advocating that worship should be taxed. It's just that if you occupy land and you're eligible to receive emergency services, then you should pay your taxes. Please acknowledge you were totally out of line there. Thanks.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Obviously, it wasn't enough for Paul ... either. If it had been, he would have told every Christian he knew to drop ALL of their possessions like hot flaming coals.

Paul died before the gospels were even published.

But, as far as we know, he didn't. And his writing comes BEFORE the Gospels, so..........................................................................................guess what?

Exactly! So how could he have known?

He only met Peter once. Did Peter tell Paul the entire gospel while they were arguing about gentiles? There's no reason to think Paul knew the obscure parts of the gospels.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'm not claiming it's a sin. At least, not here. I'm saying that you clearly value a billion dollars on earth over treasures in heaven.

And I just denied that. Now who's "not listening." Of course, you haven't been listening ever since you started on CF several years ago and you're still pounding on this one, single point as if it's some kind of Achilles Heel. And I'm saying, it ain't. I'm also implying that you don't get to try to use something Jesus supposedly said when you, yourself, don't believe that anything we have as writing in the N.t. and is claimed by the New Testament writers to accurately represent some of Jesus' authentic words, is indeed knowabley and demonstrably from Jesus Himself.

So, you DON'T get to play both sides of the court in this match and then claim, "ACE!" against Christians, let alone, anything hermeneutical along the lines like "Check Mate!"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Paul died before the gospels were even published. Exactly! So how could he have known?

He only met Peter once. Did Peter tell Paul the entire gospel while they were arguing about gentiles? There's no reason to think Paul knew the obscure parts of the gospels.

Wrong!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

And I just denied that. Now who's "not listening." Of course, you haven't been listening ever since you started on CF several years ago and you're still pounding on this one, single point as if it's some kind of Achilles Heel. And I'm saying, it ain't. I'm also implying that you don't get to try to use something Jesus supposedly said when you, yourself, don't believe that anything we have as writing in the N.t. and is claimed by the New Testament writers to accurately represent some of Jesus' authentic words, is indeed knowabley and demonstrably from Jesus Himself.

So, you DON'T get to play both sides of the court in this match and then claim, "ACE!" against Christians, let alone, anything hermeneutical along the lines like "Check Mate!"

Sure, you've said you disagree with my point about the rich young ruler. But your bank account betrays you on that one. If you had given it all away at least once, and then you were blessed like Job with more than you started with, then I'd let it be. But something tells me your bank account is not $0.

And I love your comment about playing both sides. See, different conversations have different starting points. In some conversations, we start with a "prove it" demand. In others, we say, "ok, assuming your religion is correct, we still have X, Y, and Z to deal with."

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Wrong!

Oh, how many times did they meet?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Oh, how many times did they meet?

Who says 'they' had to specifically meet AT ALL for Paul to know anything about Jesus?! There were other Christians in the world other than Peter .................................................... OR do we just want to believe the various theories that Paul made up Christianity all by his lonesome since, well, his are the first remaining literary evidences we have?

 

[zippy2006]

Well, no, your edit was not right. Not even technically right. Only purgatory can salvage Christian accountability, as you pointed out elsewhere.

I disagree. Traditionally Protestants have seen Hell as punishment for sin. You could argue that they also see it as a punishment for unbelief, but their doctrines of depravity ensure that there will be sin beyond mere unbelief in each individual case. Luther's doctrine of justification, of course, frees one from condemnation and punishment. Consider two questions:

1. Is there more accountability on Protestant Christianity than on Atheism?
2. Does Protestant Christianity contain ideal accountability?

The first question must be answered in the affirmative. A system which affirms Hell contains more accountability than a system which does not. Insofar as Protestants deny purgatory and hold that the justified are not held accountable, the second question should be answered in the negative. As far as accountability goes, Atheism < Protestantism < Catholicism. I don't see why justification by faith alone would fully cancel out the accountability that Hell provides.

 

[Resha Caner]

Was that not mocking? I'm guessing you'll pretend to not know what I'm talking about, of course.

I recall the conversation. It was indeed sarcasm. cvanwey and I resolved that situation, so I don't know how it applies here. I haven't employed sarcasm in this thread.

When I say that Christianity is the hijacking of Judaism, it's a serious statement. Chuckling or not, it is a legitimate point.

OK. You claim the idea that Christianity hijacked Judaism is a serious position of yours. I do not agree that is the case. Nor was anything I've said in this thread intended as mockery - though it is informative to know you see it that way.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It does absolutely nothing to address the cases of Jeffrey Dahmer and Jonas Salk, nor does it address the parable I referenced.

Well the story of saint Paul actually deals with a Jeffrey Dahmer case. If you truly are repentant and have that kind of conversion you end up having to deal with your own conscience of "What have I done", not to mention the reputation you have established where the community at large will not trust you for years unless you actually prove yourself to be sincere etc. and succeed in slowly winning them over.

What if Christians don't follow? What's the actual punishment?

Well Damnation is the actual punishment.


Matthew 7:22
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…


Matthew 18:6
5 And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

As far as Jonas Salk goes there is a concept of Imago Dei that covers him. In Eastern Orthodox theology and classical Catholic theology it is recognized that humans are created in "The Image of God" and this is understand in abstract rather than literal terms. But the gist of it is we often do see things that are noble and admiral in folks that are outside of the Faith so to speak, so while much of Protestantism is very negative about humanity (believing that "the Fall" spoiled the Imago Dei) the rest of Christianity is much more affirming that their is good stuff to be found outside of Christianity etc. This is just one aspect why the early Christians loved Stoicism so much, because much of the Stoic wisdom fit their own world view and they also recognized this kind of a concept.


The Stoic concept of Logos also covers this sort of thing, dealing with a transcendent truth, wisdom, order etc. that exists in the universe. (That other people from other cultures can have some knowledge of truth by way of observation, inquiry, analysis etc.).