Christianity and Accountability

[Resha Caner]

Every society on earth does the same thing. Is there anything that Christianity has that everyone else lacks?

In terms of an earthly criminal justice system? No.

Are you implying that progressives want to forego punishment and skip to rehabilitation?

Progressives are a diverse group. So, not all, but yes, some want to forego punishment, hence the addition of "innocent by reason of insanity" pleas, etc.

I said Christianity, not Christians. That is, if Christianity is true, then how is he held accountable beyond the reaches of secular society? God could hold him accountable, yes, or there could be some system within Christianity that forces accountability.

Christianity is not a system of government - what I would refer to as the Kingdom of the Left. So, as I said, the result would be the same: prison, execution, etc. depending on the particular crime.

Is prison, etc. not good enough for you? If not, why are you not including secular systems in your complaint?

Irrelevant. We can easily just use a thought experiment instead of the real-life example and insist, in the thought experiment, that the Dahmer-like character goes to heaven and that the Salk-like character goes to hell. Nothing changes.

You, an unbeliever, are going to insist to me, a Christian, how Christianity works? Good luck with that. The answer is still no, your thought experiment is not valid. You're asking me about square circles.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes it does.



That's the entire point. That's the entire reason I am calling accountability into question.



All that does is even further remove accountability from the issue. This whole time I've been saying that there is no accountability in Christianity aside from confessing Christ as savior. You're now saying we can remove that qualifier. There is now absolutely no accountability whatsoever. Are we in agreement?

Accountability to Who or What?

In terms of salvation - correct.

In terms of eternal reward - not correct.

 

[zippy2006]

Yes, I have ignored purgatory. What are the formal rules of it?

There are multiple aspects to purgatory, but the one that is relevant for this discussion is punishment for sin. The basic idea is that those who die in grace with unsatisfied transgressions go to purgatory to suffer punishment for their transgressions before they are allowed to enter Heaven.

From the conclusions we have drawn above (III:86:4, III:86:5; Supplement:12:1) it is sufficiently clear that there is a Purgatory after this life. For if the debt of punishment is not paid in full after the stain of sin has been washed away by contrition, nor again are venial sins always removed when mortal sins are remitted, and if justice demands that sin be set in order by due punishment, it follows that one who after contrition for his fault and after being absolved, dies before making due satisfaction, is punished after this life. Wherefore those who deny Purgatory speak against the justice of God: for which reason such a statement is erroneous and contrary to faith. (Supplement to the Summa Theologiae)

Purgatory in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. (Catholic Encyclopedia)
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It's interesting that Appendix 2 of the Summa actually argues that there is no difference between the fires of Hell and the fires of purgatory.

But wouldn't that be a problem that a sufficient number of Hail Marys should fix?

Catholic teaching as I understand it is that purgatorial punishment can be mitigated by way of satisfaction through petition, but the punishment cannot be fully canceled or absolved by intercession. It's something I would like to read more about.

 

[zippy2006]

There's a problem with your "edit." Actually, a massive problem.

Suppose I assumed the position of supreme ruler of New America and decided to hold the people accountable. The majority of crimes are unsolved, I reason, and so we need to dispense more punishment to create more accountability.

Is it pursuant to accountability if I punish all members of one political party, and not the other? Or everyone whose last name starts with a consonant? Or everyone who has refused to pledge fealty to me?

With regards to moral accountability, these punishments are quite simply random. Statistically, I expect the "meter of morality" to be roughly equal in both the punished group and unpunished group regardless of which method from above I choose. And as I've shown in this thread, separating those who confess Christ from those who don't similarly fails to move the "meter of morality" in either direction. We should expect heaven and hell to be filled with the same blend of people. That's not how accountability works.

If someone'e conception of Hell does not involve punishment for moral transgressions then this would be true. I won't attempt to speak for Protestants concerning their conception of Hell. Either way my theoretical rejoinder was, explicitly, a "technicality."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nope. I've vetted it. As was mentioned above, there's the odd smiting, but no system in place. There's no accountability there. None of any form. It's not just that the "kind I prefer" is lacking... whatever it is you think that might be... but that there's absolutely nothing there at all.

So, Paul saying to the Corinithian church that they'd best heed his warning to correct their behaviors lest some more of them become either sick or "fall asleep" doesn't sound like some level of accountability is involved to you? It does to me ...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Basically, the conversation goes like this:

Christian: Atheists have no accountability.

Atheist: We have court systems and prisons.

Christian: You know what I mean. Beyond this life. One could lead an immoral life and never see the inside of a cell. Where's the justice there?

Atheist: OK. But you could live like Jeffrey Dahmer, convert before you die, and then go to heaven. Where's the justice there?

Christian: Dahmer went to prison, didn't he?

Atheist rolls eyes and walks away.

Which Christian says this? It's not something I'd say. I know for a fact that atheists are held accountable by other people in this life, existentially and within the parameters of existing law.

NV, do you maybe think that some Christians who say that they think atheists "have no accountability" really intend to say that they think atheists "have no moral conscience" and then get the whole accountability thing mixed up with having a conscience?

I mean, in the past I had to study 'accountability' as a sub-topic in my Masters as a part of my prep for 'being a teacher' in the American public school system, and none of this kind of ethical deliberation which you're concerned with here in this thread is where those inquiries went. But I digress...

On a religious level and on an existential level, I think atheists are accountable and are held accountable. Likewise, Christians are held accountable by God in various ways, one of which is the possibility of being legally bush-whacked by Atheists if they (i.e. Christians) misbehave.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Ah but I did your point was "There is no accountability in Christianity".


Being a card carrying atheist who talks/ debates with Christians I'm sure you know about Logical Fallacies.... Such things as Overgeneralization, Hasty Generalization etc. to name a few that are on point.

I know of many fallacies but I have never heard of those.

Your scripture citation from earlier, at best, only asserts that there is accountability once one becomes a Christian. It does absolutely nothing to address the cases of Jeffrey Dahmer and Jonas Salk, nor does it address the parable I referenced.

Furthermore, what is the actual accountability? Paul has listed some rules. So what? What if Christians don't follow? What's the actual punishment?

By the way, I don't even think you understand what most Christians even believe in regards to the Bible and its inspiration

seeing how you seem to be aping the kind of proof texting that some Biblical Fundamentalist would do, which might reflect how some people around here operate, but not most of us obviously.

Most Christians don't understand what Christians believe with regards to inspiration. For example, you can go to church and ask around about the Chicago statement of inerrancy. See how many people understand what you're talking about.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

In terms of an earthly criminal justice system? No.



Progressives are a diverse group. So, not all, but yes, some want to forego punishment, hence the addition of "innocent by reason of insanity" pleas, etc.



Christianity is not a system of government - what I would refer to as the Kingdom of the Left. So, as I said, the result would be the same: prison, execution, etc. depending on the particular crime.

Is prison, etc. not good enough for you? If not, why are you not including secular systems in your complaint?



You, an unbeliever, are going to insist to me, a Christian, how Christianity works? Good luck with that. The answer is still no, your thought experiment is not valid. You're asking me about square circles.

Like always you aren't understanding the point of the thread. I'm not going to waste time with you until you do. Just reread the OP as many times as it takes and look at everyone else's comments. See what they're saying and learn why you're so off base.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Accountability to Who or What?

No one and nothing. That's the point. There is no accountability.

In terms of salvation - correct.

In terms of eternal reward - not correct.

I always chuckle when Christians talk about their eternal reward. I've never met anyone who wouldn't trade everything they own, including family photos and the clothes on their back, for a billion dollars. Yet when Jesus promised a man riches in heaven for selling all that he has and giving the money to the poor, Christians quickly say, "That's not for me." Well, I can only assume one of two things. Either you value a billion dollars on earth more than you value riches in heaven, or else you think that Jesus is offering riches in heaven to him but not to you. Which is it and why? And this is an actual question. An answer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If someone'e conception of Hell does not involve punishment for moral transgressions then this would be true. I won't attempt to speak for Protestants concerning their conception of Hell. Either way my theoretical rejoinder was, explicitly, a "technicality."

Well, no, your edit was not right. Not even technically right. Only purgatory can salvage Christian accountability, as you pointed out elsewhere.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No one and nothing. That's the point. There is no accountability.



I always chuckle when Christians talk about their eternal reward. I've never met anyone who wouldn't trade everything they own, including family photos and the clothes on their back, for a billion dollars. Yet when Jesus promised a man riches in heaven for selling all that he has and giving the money to the poor, Christians quickly say, "That's not for me." Well, I can only assume one of two things. Either you value a billion dollars on earth more than you value riches in heaven, or else you think that Jesus is offering riches in heaven to him but not to you. Which is it and why? And this is an actual question. An answer would be much appreciated. Thanks!

A billion dollars? That's it? Only a billion? Ha! I think that's chump change, frankly!

No, I think I'm going with Paul where he says to the Corinthians, "However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him—" (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Why would I trade THAT for a wad of cash [or a wad of anything for that matter]?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

So, Paul saying to the Corinithian church that they'd best heed his warning to correct their behaviors lest some more of them become either sick or "fall asleep" doesn't sound like some level of accountability is involved to you? It does to me ...

You already saw @zippy2006 point out the problem here. Justice for some, or for one or two, doesn't solve the issue. He said that to you directly!

Even if we suppose that Paul wrote letters to every church in existence, Paul still died and stopped writing. Where are the churches being held accountable now? Where is the systemic solution?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You already saw @zippy2006 point out the problem here. Justice for some, or for one or two, doesn't solve the issue. He said that to you directly!

Even if we suppose that Paul wrote letters to every church in existence, Paul still died and stopped writing. Where are the churches being held accountable now? Where is the systemic solution?

Didn't Paul say something in Romans chapter 13 about the uses to which God can and does put some little tiny thing called 'government' ? .... in fact, if I remember right, Peter is reported to have implied something about the importance of Christians being "good" so they don't suffer as actual "evil doers," which kind of sounds like an echo of Paul. I mean, as a Christian, I don't want to have to eat humble pie for being a miscreant and then singing the following song over and over again (even though I LOVE its rif!!!):

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Which Christian says this? It's not something I'd say. I know for a fact that atheists are held accountable by other people in this life, existentially and within the parameters of existing law.

@public hermit said it.

NV, do you maybe think that some Christians who say that they think atheists "have no accountability" really intend to say that they think atheists "have no moral conscience" and then get the whole accountability thing mixed up with having a conscience?

No. Christians rely on our conscience and say it is the Holy Spirit. That's not accountability though, unless you think remorse is a sufficient punishment for wrongdoing.

I mean, in the past I had to study 'accountability' as a sub-topic in my Masters as a part of my prep for 'being a teacher' in the American public school system, and none of this kind of ethical deliberation which you're concerned with here in this thread is where those inquiries went. But I digress...

On a religious level and on an existential level, I think atheists are accountable and are held accountable. Likewise, Christians are held accountable by God in various ways, one of which is the possibility of being legally bush-whacked by Atheists if they (i.e. Christians) misbehave.

Christians are not held accountable by God. Have you not been keeping up?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You, an unbeliever, are going to insist to me, a Christian, how Christianity works?

By the way, I thought this quip was especially cute. Christianity is literally the hijacking of the Jewish religion. Christianity is you telling Jews how Judaism works.

Also, I was a Christian for a long time. As have most of the atheists of this generation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@public hermit said it.

Well, if I had time to read every single post that every single other poster here posted, whether friend or fiend, I wouldn't get anything else in life done, now would I?

No. Christians rely on our conscience and say it is the Holy Spirit. That's not accountability though, unless you think remorse is a sufficient punishment for wrongdoing.

Christians are not held accountable by God. Have you not been keeping up?

....I don't know what 10 o'clock news you watch, but I've seen stories where a pastor here and a youth pastor there, or a Christian teacher here or atheist teacher there, got hauled off to jail for some serious offense (sometimes for 'touching' others of various ages inappropriately). It's just that we're not seeing the Catholic church getting vetted in the same way that smaller churches (usually much smaller) have and do.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

A billion dollars? That's it? Only a billion? Ha! I think that's chump change, frankly!

No, I think I'm going with Paul where he says to the Corinthians, "However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him—" (1 Corinthians 2:9)

Why would I trade THAT for a wad of cash [or a wad of anything for that matter]?

Trade it for a billion dollars? My hypothesis is not asking you to sell your soul or accept a billion dollars to renounce Christ. Re-read.

 

[Resha Caner]

Like always you aren't understanding the point of the thread. I'm not going to waste time with you until you do. Just reread the OP as many times as it takes and look at everyone else's comments. See what they're saying and learn why you're so off base.

I've no interest in adopting your strawman.

By the way, I thought this quip was especially cute. Christianity is literally the hijacking of the Jewish religion. Christianity is you telling Jews how Judaism works.

Also, I was a Christian for a long time. As have most of the atheists of this generation.

I thought you weren't going to waste time on me.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Didn't Paul say something in Romans chapter 13 about the uses to which God can and does put some little tiny thing called 'government' ? .... in fact, if I remember right, Peter is reported to have implied something about the importance of Christians being "good" so they don't suffer as actual "evil doers," which kind of sounds like an echo of Paul. I mean, as a Christian, I don't want to have to eat humble pie for being a miscreant and then singing the following song over and over again (even though I LOVE its rif!!!):

Christians aren't accountable to the US government. That's for sure. They don't pay their taxes. Even though Jesus told them to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I've no interest in adopting your strawman.



I thought you weren't going to waste time on me.

Wasn't a waste of time. I had a chuckle writing that.