Christianity and Accountability

[Pavel Mosko]

I think what Nihilist Virus is wanting to know is when various pedo-phile priests are going to "get theirs" from God ...

That one is easy.


Matthew 7:22-23

 

[muichimotsu]

I'm thinking NV prefers to see something happen on a more terrestrial level. But I could be wrong.

Sharing some of NV's sentiments, it's more that the supposed "punishment" is in an unfalsifiable context of an afterlife, rather than addressing the issues in some meaningful sense now or at least condemning them rightfully as doing wrong, even if it's after the fact. We're not necessarily desiring absolute justice, since that becomes unrealistic and relies on unrealistic ideas to resolve the problem of injustices left unpunished in the world as we see it

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Sharing some of NV's sentiments, it's more that the supposed "punishment" is in an unfalsifiable context of an afterlife, rather than addressing the issues in some meaningful sense now or at least condemning them rightfully as doing wrong, even if it's after the fact. We're not necessarily desiring absolute justice, since that becomes unrealistic and relies on unrealistic ideas to resolve the problem of injustices left unpunished in the world as we see it

Actually, in a inverted way, I can empathize with @Nihilist Virus. It's just that WHERE I'd like to see the gavel fall isn't where he'd like for it to fall ... and we've had some of this type of conversation elsewhere on another one of my apologetics threads.

Besides, as for this whole thread, we might keep in mind that little bit Paul said to the Corinthian church about "taking the Lord's Communion in an unworthy manner." Apparently, there were (more or less) some terrestrial penalties manifesting upon those who claimed to be Christian at that time. I'm guessing that sometimes similar penalties are taking place upon Christians today who, shall we say, mis-behave to ardently.

 

[zippy2006]

I'm thinking NV prefers to see something happen on a more terrestrial level. But I could be wrong.

Here is his argument as I read it:

1. If Christianity contained more accountability than atheism then Christianity would contain some level of accountability.
2. Christianity contains no accountability
   1. Christianity rewards belief and "conversion," not moral behavior
3. Therefore atheism and Christianity contain the same level of accountability: zero. ("There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.")

Note, though, that NV is interested in the afterlife:

These two real-life examples show that, beyond what occurs in our mortal lives, there is absolutely no personal accountability in Christianity.

I hope we can agree that Jeffrey Dahmer was not a better person than Jonas Salk. I hope we can agree that Dahmer did not become a better person simply by giving himself to Christ while incarcerated. Yet, we can also agree that, supposing Christianity is true, Dahmer is most likely in heaven and Salk is most likely in hell.

Looking at Christian doctrine, we see a list of things we ought to do and ought not do. Is that Christian accountability? Obviously not, because you could just completely ignore morality and then have a deathbed conversion.

"Oh, but those who bear fruit their whole lives will have more treasures in heaven than one who just converts right at the end."

Christ talked in riddles often, but this is as clear as it gets: those who bear fruit their whole lives will get the same [eternal] reward as those who convert at the very end.

To simplify the whole thing, NV thinks deathbed conversions of immoral people allow them to avoid accountability for their evil actions. I respond that he ignores purgatory.

 

[muichimotsu]

Actually, in a inverted way, I can empathize with @Nihilist Virus. It's just that WHERE I'd like to see the gavel fall isn't where he'd like for it to fall ... and we've had some of this type of conversation elsewhere on another one of my apologetics threads.

Besides, as for this whole thread, we might keep in mind that little bit Paul said to the Corinthian church about "taking the Lord's Communion in an unworthy manner." Apparently, there were (more or less) some terrestrial penalties manifesting upon those who claimed to be Christian at that time. I'm guessing that sometimes similar penalties are taking place upon Christians today who, shall we say, mis-behave to ardently.

I mean, being punished by excommunication is more the religious punishment versus imprisonment and such for misdeeds done under religious auspices

 

[muichimotsu]

1. 
   

   [*]If Christianity contained more accountability than atheism then Christianity would contain some level of accountability.
   [*]Christianity contains no accountability
   

   1. Christianity rewards belief and "conversion," not moral behavior

   [*]Therefore atheism and Christianity contain the same level of accountability: zero. ("There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.")

   
   

Not sure NV is claiming atheism has 0 accountability, that's you insinuating that into the conclusion, when the conclusion is merely that Christianity has less accountability than what they'd likely argue atheism has in contrast.


And that 1st premise is messily phrased: basically he thinks that a system worth being considered true would have accountability if it's supposed to be ethical at its core
Note, though, that NV is interested in the afterlife:

To simplify the whole thing, NV thinks deathbed conversions of immoral people allow them to avoid accountability for their evil actions. I respond that he ignores purgatory.

Not sure purgatory is as common as you think, but that seems to just shift the goalposts so your soteriology can account for things that otherwise would create contradictions

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here is his argument as I read it:

1. If Christianity contained more accountability than atheism then Christianity would contain some level of accountability.
2. Christianity contains no accountability
   1. Christianity rewards belief and "conversion," not moral behavior
3. Therefore atheism and Christianity contain the same level of accountability: zero. ("There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.")

Note, though, that NV is interested in the afterlife:

Perhaps he is, but maybe he's rather confused about how it's all going to work out? Or, maybe he's also unaware that Mercy, Grace and Love are intended to be expressed 1st and then Judgement(s) afterward?

To simplify the whole thing, NV thinks deathbed conversions of immoral people allow them to avoid accountability for their evil actions. I respond that he ignores purgatory.

... well, I ignore purgatory, too.

 

[zippy2006]

Not sure NV is claiming atheism has 0 accountability, that's you insinuating that into the conclusion, when the conclusion is merely that Christianity has less accountability than what they'd likely argue atheism has in contrast.

Whereas I'd say you've applied a heavy dose of eisegesis to NV's OP, especially with your claim that his argument relates to this life as opposed to the afterlife. It clearly doesn't: he refers to the afterlife and eternal punishment or reward in nearly every paragraph of his OP. His second-to-last sentence justifies my first premise; his last sentence is admittedly ambiguous, and could refer either to the totality of Christianity or else to atheism and Christianity together.

 

[zippy2006]

... well, I ignore purgatory, too.

Protestantism has that tendency, which is why NV's argument is understandable.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Protestantism has that tendency, which is why NV's argument is understandable.

Oh, I don't know about that. As I mentioned above, there are places in the New Testament in which we find at least some minimal indication that, sometimes, God DOES put His little finger down on a Christian or two, here or there, in THIS life. And if He does, then I'd count that as a form of accountability.

 

[zippy2006]

Oh, I don't know about that. As I mentioned above, there are places in the New Testament in which we find at least some minimal indication that, sometimes, God DOES put His little finger down on a Christian or two, here or there, in THIS life. And if He does, then I'd count that as a form of accountability.

I suppose the natural answer would be that justice in the form of accountability cannot be circumscribed to "sometimes," or "one or two." The thrust of the OP is that there are some people who do terrible things in this life and are never punished for it. That there are others who do terrible things and are punished doesn't really answer the quandary about the first group.

Edit: Technically I believe the purgatory-denying-Protestant could respond by pointing to Hell. Even if we admit NV's loophole for the sake of argument, Protestant Christianity still has more accountability than atheism due to the fact that atheism has no Hell.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I suppose the natural answer would be that justice in the form of accountability cannot be circumscribed to "sometimes," or "one or two." The thrust of the OP is that there are some people who do terrible things in this life and are never punished for it. That there are others who do terrible things and are punished doesn't really answer the quandary about the first group.

Well, as far as Christianity is concerned about accountability, I'd think it'd be better for NV to vet the entire N.T. for various comments about who, what, when, where, and how God might see fit to hold some one individual accountable. I'm not sure he's doing this, logic or no logic. He can say that God isn't asserting accountability, but it might turn out to be MORE accurate to say that God isn't asserting accountability upon various folks in the WAY that NV would like for it to be asserted ...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Did Paul the Apostle escape accountability for his evil actions?

If you knew the difference between compassion and sacrifice you would not have condemned the innocent...

 

[FireDragon76]

Meh... both Nihilist Virus and Christians here sound far too moralistic.

Real responsibility is about living a life in good faith and not harboring unjust resentments.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So then you agree that there is no personal responsibility, right? No one bears his own responsibility, right?



False. There are exactly zero secret believers.

Matthew 10

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Well... maybe there are secret believers, but that won't do them any good. They'll just be believers in hell. It is reasonable to conclude that Salk is most probably burning in hell.



28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



I was careful to use the qualifier, "probably." Dahmer professed faith in Christ; Salk, presumably, did not. I'm going to just assume that these men weren't lying about the issue. There's no point in refuting it because we can draw from countless similar examples, and there is no way that in every single such example people were lying about what they believe.

At the heart of the Gospel is that He was accountable for the sins of the believer.

The Jewish believers I refer to were not keeping their faith secret from me...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Meh... both Nihilist Virus and Christians here sound far too moralistic.

Real responsibility is about living a life in good faith and not harboring unjust resentments.

Such honourable qualities will not cut it at judgement.

 

[FireDragon76]

Such honourable qualities will not cut it at judgement.

Well, that's yet again another reason not to take your religion seriously. To get into such a "heaven", it sounds like one has to forgo a mature ethical sense in favor of a childish and absurd morality.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes it is foolishness to men.

Yes human 'righteousness' is as filthy rags.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes it is foolishness to men.

Yes human 'righteousness' is as filthy rags.

I hope you can appreciate how genuinely unhealthy some of us find that attitude to be.

 

[Halbhh]

It is stated often that there is no accountability in the atheistic worldview. You live your life, and regardless of whatever kind of person you were, the finality of death means that it doesn't really matter if you were a good person or not. It is often implied, or stated outright, that, by contrast, there is accountability in the Christian worldview.

What is that accountability?

Jeffrey Dahmer raped, murdered, and ate people. Secular society held him responsible for that. He was sentenced to several hundreds of years in prison. He would only serve a couple of them, as, after converting to Christianity, he was rape-murdered in prison. According to Christianity, he's going to heaven. Where, under Christianity, was he held responsible for his actions?

Conversely, there's Jonas Salk. A person you probably never heard of. I certainly hadn't. But he saved billions of lives by discovering the cure for polio, testing it on himself and his own family, and then giving it away for free. However, since he was raised in a Jewish home, he presumably rejected the gospel and therefore is going to hell. This is also not how accountability works.

These two real-life examples show that, beyond what occurs in our mortal lives, there is absolutely no personal accountability in Christianity. Is there something that Christianity has, which atheism lacks, that bestows personal accountability upon us?

I hope we can agree that Jeffrey Dahmer was not a better person than Jonas Salk. I hope we can agree that Dahmer did not become a better person simply by giving himself to Christ while incarcerated. Yet, we can also agree that, supposing Christianity is true, Dahmer is most likely in heaven and Salk is most likely in hell.

Looking at Christian doctrine, we see a list of things we ought to do and ought not do. Is that Christian accountability? Obviously not, because you could just completely ignore morality and then have a deathbed conversion.

Oh, but those who bear fruit their whole lives will have more treasures in heaven than one who just converts right at the end. Instead of punishment to drive accountability, there's reward. Except this line of thinking is directly contradicted by Christ's teachings. Allow me to quote Matthew 20:

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Christ talked in riddles often, but this is as clear as it gets: those who bear fruit their whole lives will get the same reward as those who convert at the very end.

So there is no accountability in Christianity with regards to punishment or reward. There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.

Yes, in that version of Christianity you gave, I agree with you that the outcome isn't fair. That's correct.

In that version.

But, there's a Real Version (it's less easy to simplify into a doctrine though). Here's a central part --

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."
Romans 2 NIV