Christianity and Accountability

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It is stated often that there is no accountability in the atheistic worldview. You live your life, and regardless of whatever kind of person you were, the finality of death means that it doesn't really matter if you were a good person or not. It is often implied, or stated outright, that, by contrast, there is accountability in the Christian worldview.

What is that accountability?

Jeffrey Dahmer raped, murdered, and ate people. Secular society held him responsible for that. He was sentenced to several hundreds of years in prison. He would only serve a couple of them, as, after converting to Christianity, he was rape-murdered in prison. According to Christianity, he's going to heaven. Where, under Christianity, was he held responsible for his actions?

Conversely, there's Jonas Salk. A person you probably never heard of. I certainly hadn't. But he saved billions of lives by discovering the cure for polio, testing it on himself and his own family, and then giving it away for free. However, since he was raised in a Jewish home, he presumably rejected the gospel and therefore is going to hell. This is also not how accountability works.

These two real-life examples show that, beyond what occurs in our mortal lives, there is absolutely no personal accountability in Christianity. Is there something that Christianity has, which atheism lacks, that bestows personal accountability upon us?

I hope we can agree that Jeffrey Dahmer was not a better person than Jonas Salk. I hope we can agree that Dahmer did not become a better person simply by giving himself to Christ while incarcerated. Yet, we can also agree that, supposing Christianity is true, Dahmer is most likely in heaven and Salk is most likely in hell.

Looking at Christian doctrine, we see a list of things we ought to do and ought not do. Is that Christian accountability? Obviously not, because you could just completely ignore morality and then have a deathbed conversion.

Oh, but those who bear fruit their whole lives will have more treasures in heaven than one who just converts right at the end. Instead of punishment to drive accountability, there's reward. Except this line of thinking is directly contradicted by Christ's teachings. Allow me to quote Matthew 20:

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Christ talked in riddles often, but this is as clear as it gets: those who bear fruit their whole lives will get the same reward as those who convert at the very end.

So there is no accountability in Christianity with regards to punishment or reward. There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.
 

Neogaia777

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It does not matter what other Christians or other people say about, or in they're own judgments or evaluations of other people, etc, does not matter at all, etc, cause only God knows and can judge they're individual hearts, etc...

And there is a great, great deal in the Bible about "that" or those as well, etc...

I fight with people and a lot of fellow Christians about this matter and these things and/or issues all of the time, cause I think they are wrong and sometimes very, very wrong, etc...

But all men and man (and not just Christians only) has a natural propensity to judge and think they are God when and where they should not, etc, so I guess I don't have a lot more to say about that, etc...

We are only called to love and forgive and be at peace and take no offense, etc, etc, etc, not to judge, etc, and to be very, very, very careful and even fearful for our own souls when and where we do judge, or feel like we are forced to judge, etc...

And there is a lot in the Bible about that as well, etc...

But a lot of people, and a lot of Christians, pick and choose what they want and like that is line with the natural disposition of their own hearts, etc, and it most definitely "shows" sometimes with a lot of people or a lot of them, etc...

I think it's really too bad and so sad that a lot of Christians and a lot of people in general just don't seem to "get this" ever, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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If there is accountability, it is not supposed to judged and/or determined by "us", etc, with the only exception being when and where we feel like we are forced to basically, and then were told to be very careful and to handle it right and be fearful for our own souls when or if we feel like we have to or must do so, etc...

Many are not handling it right at all though, and are not just doing it when they are only feeling "forced to", etc, and most definitely don't seem to be "fearful for their own souls" when doing so either, quite the "opposite" actually a lot of the time, etc...

And it's very sad to me, and makes me sad, and sometimes "angry", or even very angry sometimes, etc...

But I've really got to watch that last part about me also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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Carl Emerson

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However, since he was raised in a Jewish home, he presumably rejected the gospel and therefore is going to hell. This is also not how accountability works.

There are a lot of secret believers among the Jews. This is because the persecution at conversion is pretty intense. Only God knows if he accepted or rejected His love in his heart.
 
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Neogaia777

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It does not matter what other Christians or other people say about, or in they're own judgments or evaluations of other people, etc, does not matter at all, etc, cause only God knows and can judge they're individual hearts, etc...
Oh and I'd also just like to add, it most especially does not matter what people say about themselves either, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Nihilist Virus

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It does not matter what other Christians or other people say about, or in they're own judgments or evaluations of other people, etc, does not matter at all, etc, cause only God knows and can judge they're individual hearts, etc...

And there is a great, great deal in the Bible about "that" or those as well, etc...

I fight with people and a lot of fellow Christians about this matter and these things and/or issues all of the time, cause I think they are wrong and sometimes very, very wrong, etc...

But all men and man (and not just Christians only) has a natural propensity to judge and think they are God when and where they should not, etc, so I guess I don't have a lot more to say about that, etc...

We are only called to love and forgive and be at peace and take no offense, etc, etc, etc, not to judge, etc, and to be very, very, very careful and even fearful for our own souls when and where we do judge, or feel like we are forced to judge, etc...

And there is a lot in the Bible about that as well, etc...

But a lot of people, and a lot of Christians, pick and choose what they want and like that is line with the natural disposition of their own hearts, etc, and it most definitely "shows" sometimes with a lot of people or a lot of them, etc...

I think it's really too bad and so sad that a lot of Christians and a lot of people in general just don't seem to "get this" ever, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!


If there is accountability, it is not supposed to judged and/or determined by "us", etc, with the only exception being when and where we feel like we are forced to basically, and then were told to be very careful and to handle it right and be fearful for our own souls when or if we feel like we have to or must do so, etc...

Many are not handling it right at all though, and are not just doing it when they are only feeling "forced to", etc, and most definitely don't seem to be "fearful for their own souls" when doing so either, quite the "opposite" actually a lot of the time, etc...

And it's very sad to me, and makes me sad, and sometimes "angry", or even very angry sometimes, etc...

But I've really got to watch that last part about me also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Thanks for this. Got anything relevant, though?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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If he was truely converted, born again, then Jesus took responsibility for his actions on the cross.

So then you agree that there is no personal responsibility, right? No one bears his own responsibility, right?

There are a lot of secret believers among the Jews.

False. There are exactly zero secret believers.

Matthew 10

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Well... maybe there are secret believers, but that won't do them any good. They'll just be believers in hell. It is reasonable to conclude that Salk is most probably burning in hell.

This is because the persecution at conversion is pretty intense.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Only God knows if he accepted or rejected His love in his heart.

I was careful to use the qualifier, "probably." Dahmer professed faith in Christ; Salk, presumably, did not. I'm going to just assume that these men weren't lying about the issue. There's no point in refuting it because we can draw from countless similar examples, and there is no way that in every single such example people were lying about what they believe.
 
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Neogaia777

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Thanks for this. Got anything relevant, though?
Relevant to what...?

I thought it was pretty relevant...?

Paul also talks about how it is not Christians jobs to judge those on the "outside" also, but only within their own body of believers, etc, and I think also implies also only when we must, etc. Jesus was only sent to the Jews only, etc, was not out rebuking "all of the people" and everyone in the world, etc...

But how many people, how many so-called Christians, think it is their own exclusive job to judge everyone and everything and all the people in and/or of the world, etc...?

Anyway, really gets to me sometimes...

Were supposed to be afraid for our own souls when we judge, or only when and where we have to judge, etc, and only judge when and where we have to only, and only within our own body of believers only, etc...

Paul's letters were to his churches that he started, not the whole entire world, etc... I mean yeah, we have books like Romans, etc, but that was because he kind of sparked a fire with some of the people to believe there, etc, and he was a Roman, etc...

Anyway,

Oh, and, your welcome BTW...

God Bless!
 
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muichimotsu

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That is a common thread I see in terms of street preaching (when I could tolerate it), in that you simultaneously have responsibility, yet ultimately God is the one that does anything, getting into the idea of free will in a world with an entity that has absolute foreknowledge and sovereignty (an advanced Laplace's demon problem)

If the accountability is only to humans in terms of their contingency on God, it still gets into the authoritarian aspect, that people should obey because it's for their own good and that our value is as obedient servants to the creator, neither of which would really be much for accountability except to the mob boss that gives you protection as long as you pay the money (or they'll break your legs)
 
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Resha Caner

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Secular society held him responsible for that. He was sentenced to several hundreds of years in prison.

If you didn't know, Christian societies also have prisons, so those societies would have held him responsible the same way - send him to prison (or capital punishment). It was Progressives, not Christians who pursued most of the modern ideas of rehabilitation that are meant to provide alternatives to shame, penal institutions, etc.

It seems though, that you're not asking if Christians hold him accountable, but if God does.

According to Christianity, he's going to heaven.

That is not correct. We don't know his eternal fate. But to answer your question, all sin is punished.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Oh, but those who bear fruit their whole lives will have more treasures in heaven than one who just converts right at the end. Instead of punishment to drive accountability, there's reward. Except this line of thinking is directly contradicted by Christ's teachings. Allow me to quote Matthew 20:

Your wrong their is a difference between "escaping the fire" and having something to show for it in the end.


1 Corinthians 3:

King James Version
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
 
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FireDragon76

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A need for a shared sense of trust in complicated societies relying upon mechanical solidarity is an important reason that organized religion evolved in the first place.

Having said all that, in my experience religious fundamentalism and legalism are sure-fire ways for people to evade personal responsibility through self-delusion.
 
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FireDragon76

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If you didn't know, Christian societies also have prisons, so those societies would have held him responsible the same way - send him to prison (or capital punishment). It was Progressives, not Christians who pursued most of the modern ideas of rehabilitation that are meant to provide alternatives to shame, penal institutions, etc.

The notion of "secular society" needs unpacking. I think it relies on a false dichotomy between "Christian" and "secular", as if a Christian cannot exist in both spheres and recognize the legitimacy of each.
 
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Resha Caner

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The notion of "secular society" needs unpacking. I think it relies on a false dichotomy between "Christian" and "secular", as if a Christian cannot exist in both spheres and recognize the legitimacy of each.

Agreed. I thought of that ... but one battle at a time.
 
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FireDragon76

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That is a common thread I see in terms of street preaching (when I could tolerate it), in that you simultaneously have responsibility, yet ultimately God is the one that does anything, getting into the idea of free will in a world with an entity that has absolute foreknowledge and sovereignty (an advanced Laplace's demon problem)

If the accountability is only to humans in terms of their contingency on God, it still gets into the authoritarian aspect, that people should obey because it's for their own good and that our value is as obedient servants to the creator, neither of which would really be much for accountability except to the mob boss that gives you protection as long as you pay the money (or they'll break your legs)

Yeah. That's generally what is implied by Christians that argue that an atheist lacks accountability. They are thinking in terms of authoritarianism.

There are some Christians who have been exemplary human beings, like Fred Rogers, but generally they were not attracted to the potential authoritarian aspects of Christianity.
 
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zippy2006

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It is stated often that there is no accountability in the atheistic worldview. You live your life, and regardless of whatever kind of person you were, the finality of death means that it doesn't really matter if you were a good person or not. It is often implied, or stated outright, that, by contrast, there is accountability in the Christian worldview.

What is that accountability?

In the arguments you are referring to it is accountability after death: judgement.

Jeffrey Dahmer raped, murdered, and ate people. Secular society held him responsible for that. He was sentenced to several hundreds of years in prison. He would only serve a couple of them, as, after converting to Christianity, he was rape-murdered in prison. According to Christianity, he's going to heaven. Where, under Christianity, was he held responsible for his actions?

Yes, God punishes sin (as Resha said).

Conversely, there's Jonas Salk. A person you probably never heard of. I certainly hadn't. But he saved billions of lives by discovering the cure for polio, testing it on himself and his own family, and then giving it away for free. However, since he was raised in a Jewish home, he presumably rejected the gospel and therefore is going to hell. This is also not how accountability works.

Not only is this not how accountability works, this is not what accountability is. You are talking about reward here, not accountability. Equivocation.

Is there something that Christianity has, which atheism lacks, that bestows personal accountability upon us?

Yes, judgement after death. This should be obvious.

So there is no accountability in Christianity with regards to punishment or reward. There is, in fact, absolutely no accountability whatsoever.

Huh...? :scratch:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Just supposing they escaped earthly punishment, the answer would be either purgatory or hell.

I'm thinking NV prefers to see something happen on a more terrestrial level. But I could be wrong.
 
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