Christian Wicca

[Rae]

Ahem. Catholics ARE Christians and do not worship Mary. Thanks.

 

[Crispie]

Ahem. Catholics ARE Christians and do not worship Mary. Thanks.

Actually some do worship mary, they believe she is a sinless woman that was a virgin her whole life, and is as pure as Jesus. But that seems to be more reserved for the earlier Catholic Church, and of course this doesnt apply to all Catholics, only some.

 

[Lifesaver]

Actually some do worship mary, they believe she is a sinless woman that was a virgin her whole life, and is as pure as Jesus. But that seems to be more reserved for the earlier Catholic Church, and of course this doesnt apply to all Catholics, only some.

You clearly have not much knowledge of Catholicism.

Mary was a virgin her whole life and was sinless. She was conceived without original sin, and was born in the same state that Adam and Eve were before the fall. The Angel didn't say she had merely a lot of grace; he said she was FULL of grace.

This is not worshipping, by the way, and is a dogma of faith for everyone. Those who deny it go, in this respect, against God Himself.

 

[Nightstrike]

Doesn't it say in the bible something like, What union can Christ and bael have?
So from what I'v read it says we can only serve one god.
and Christians are only to serve Jesus Christ.

 

[Crispie]

You clearly have not much knowledge of Catholicism.

Mary was a virgin her whole life and was sinless. She was conceived without original sin, and was born in the same state that Adam and Eve were before the fall. The Angel didn't say she had merely a lot of grace; he said she was FULL of grace.

This is not worshipping, by the way, and is a dogma of faith for everyone. Those who deny it go, in this respect, against God Himself.

1. Show me in the bible that Mary is sinless
2. Show me where she stays a virgin her whole life. (Whats funny is that Jesus even has brothers and sisters, yeah Mary really didnt have sex after she concieved Jesus but somehow has children)
3. Show me in the bible where it says that you are born with sin (im not talking about sinful nature)
4. Where in the bible does Full of Grace mean that she is perfect, or sinless, or anything. And Im not talking about perfect as in righteous in her times.

 

[Lifesaver]

1. Show me in the bible that Mary is sinless

You need to accept Sacred Tradition for that.
And seeing that you do accept the authority of Sacred Tradition, or else you wouldn't even have a Bible with the books you do, here are some good links:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

If you say you don't accept Sacred Tradition and the authority of the Church Fathers, then your faith is based on a contradiction, and there is no point in having any further discussion, for who accepts contradiction accepts anything.

2. Show me where she stays a virgin her whole life. (Whats funny is that Jesus even has brothers and sisters, yeah Mary really didnt have sex after she concieved Jesus but somehow has children)

Are you kidding me?
Those "Mary's children" lists have been refuted a thousand times.

3. Show me in the bible where it says that you are born with sin (im not talking about sinful nature)

You don't believe in original sin? Oh dear...!

 

[Crispie]

Matthew 12:46
46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Luke 8:19
19Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

Mark 3:31
31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

Matthew 13
55"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"


John 7


Jesus Goes to the Feast of Tabernacles

1After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. 2But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. 8You go to the Feast. I am not yet[1] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." 9Having said this, he stayed in Galilee.
10However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.


Acts 1
14They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.


Galatians 1
19I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

Are you kidding me?
Those "Mary's children" lists have been refuted a thousand times.

Wow, guess a ton of scripture is now for no good reason refuted, and shown to be false because of some opinions.

All his brothers were born after Jesus, so there is no reason that Mary couldnt have sex after Jesus was born. And even in Jewish tradition Sex finalizes a marriage.

You don't believe in original sin? Oh dear...!

Oh dear, theres no scripture to back it up, of course I wont beleive it.

You need to accept Sacred Tradition for that.

And seeing that you do accept the authority of Sacred Tradition, or else you wouldn't even have a Bible with the books you do, here are some good links:
http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

If you say you don't accept Sacred Tradition and the authority of the Church Fathers, then your faith is based on a contradiction, and there is no point in having any further discussion, for who accepts contradiction accepts anything.

Wow thats great and all, but show some scripture on how Mary was sinless. I dont want any "traditions that show that you are christian" thing, I only need and want Scripture.






4. Where in the bible does Full of Grace mean that she is perfect, or sinless, or anything. And Im not talking about perfect as in righteous in her times.



You havent even explained that one yet.

 

[Lifesaver]

Wow, guess a ton of scripture is now for no good reason refuted, and shown to be false because of some opinions.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Brethren_of_the_Lord.asp
If you would only read what I link you to...

Oh dear, theres no scripture to back it up, of course I wont beleive it.

Then you do indeed follow Luther's false doctrine of sola scriptura, and doesn't believe in the Tradition.
Again, I present my challenge to all sola scripturists:
Where in the books of the Bible is there a list saying which books belong and which books don't belong to the Bible?
As you probably know, there were many books about Jesus, though not all of them were divinely inspired. Where in the Bible does it say which were and which weren't?

I dont want any "traditions that show that you are christian" thing, I only need and want Scripture.

Only Scripture = Sola Scriptura

Yes, you indeed uphold that pernicious and irrational heresy, invented by Martin Luther.
Well, even Luther agreed that Mary had been a virgin her whole life. But you disagree with him there, right?

 

[Crispie]

Well, though their may be translation errors or not, after researching through translations, I have concluded that brother and sister have a vague enouph meaning where it can be either a real brother or sister, or someone who is a related through family (cousin) or it can just mean close friend. With such a vague translation meaning, all I can say is, I cannot conclude whether or not Jesus truely didnt have biological brothers and sisters or not. So I guess its all up to what you choose to believe. Either of us could be right as far as I know by reading the translations.

As you probably know, there were many books about Jesus, though not all of them were divinely inspired. Where in the Bible does it say which were and which weren't?

And for you saying the bible isnt 100% reliable because some may not belong in the bible?

2 Peter 1
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In that verse it says that the bible was written by God through man, all of of it, all the scripture. God EXACTLY says that nothing in the scripture (the bible) was written soley by man and not by God.


Look, I dont believe all of lutherans teachings, and if I do, that is only because by chance his beliefs and my beliefs are the same, nothing more. I dont study lutherans work, so stop claiming im some kind of lutheran or that I read a false teaching. I only use the bible as the foundation for whatever I learn about God and Christianity.

I would still like verses explaining original sin, sinless mary, and so forth. This is because I only take the bible as valid evidence of such matters.

 

[the_cheat]

Oh and Mary Magdelene Mother of Jesus Christ did in fact sin.

Okay, is it just my CRAZY HERETICAL INTERPRETATIONof the Bible, or is Mary Magdalene not the same Mary as Mary, mother of Jesus?

 

[Cerridwen]

Hey~

I was thinking that same thing, lol....Mary Magdelene is the prostitute, right? The one that's speculated as being Jesus' wife (during the 18 odd years he up & disappears) in a book whose title has escaped me?

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Crispie]

You know what I might of got them mixed up, let me fix that

 

[the_cheat]

Hey~

I was thinking that same thing, lol....Mary Magdelene is the prostitute, right? The one that's speculated as being Jesus' wife (during the 18 odd years he up & disappears) in a book whose title has escaped me?

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

Right-o. Mary Magdelene is often conflated with the prostitute Jesus chills with in the Gospel According to Luke, but many believe the two women to be separate characters. It's kind of a toss-up. Here's an interesting Straight Dope on the subject:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a980918.html

 

[the_cheat]

Hey~

I was thinking that same thing, lol....Mary Magdelene is the prostitute, right? The one that's speculated as being Jesus' wife (during the 18 odd years he up & disappears) in a book whose title has escaped me?

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

I think the book you're thinking of is Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Or possibly its cruddy knockoff, The Da Vinci Code.

 

[the_cheat]

You know what I might of got them mixed up, let me fix that

Not to be a big jerk, but this is kind of undermining the reliability of your theological arguments.

 

[Crispie]

Unfortunately when I read the translations to original Greek they are too vague for me to give a response. And as far as mixing up the marys, that was a mistake of mine, forgot that the 2 marys are different. hahah

 

[the_cheat]

Unfortunately when I read the translations to original Greek they are too vague for me to give a response. And as far as mixing up the marys, that was a mistake of mine, forgot that the 2 marys are different. hahah

I'm honestly speechless.

 

[Cerridwen]

wow....this is a red letter moment...I don't know what to say....

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Hitokiri Shadow]

Christians don't believe Jesus ever had a wife. He died, rose, and ascended to heaven. Mormonism believes that Jesus had several wives (Mary Magdalene among them) I believe, but they are not Christian (at least, not if they believe everything the Book of Mormon and the Mormon Church is telling them)

 

[Cerridwen]

Christian religions don't believe Jesus ever had a wife. He died, rose, and ascended to heaven. Mormonism believes that Jesus had several wives (Mary Magdalene among them) I believe, but they are not Christian (at least, not if they believe everything the Book of Mormon and the Mormon Church is telling them)

I am aware that mainstream Christian religions don't believe that Jesus was married. And no, Mormons don't believe he had any wives. They have just as much claim to Christianity as you do-I'm sure you'd realize that if you'd read up on what they actually believe.

It is interesting to think about, however...since Jesus up & disappeared for 18 years of his life, that he could have married someone.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*